Message Transcript
Hi. For those who are new to our Livestream, my name is Sharon and I’m married to the gorgeous man who is hosting today. We have three kids Josh, Zak and Zoe who are 19, 17 and 13. If you’ve been with us before you’ll have seen them all at some point. I volunteer part-time at a women’s charity teaching English as a foreign language and helping with the crisis support there. and I love working there as I get to hang out with loads of fabulous people from around the world, though we’ve not been able to meet much in the past ten months due to Covid.
But enough about me. Now last week Sally asked the question, ‘Isn’t the church just full of hypocrites?’ This week I’m going to look at the question, 'Isn’t the church just after my money?’ By the church, I just mean any group of people calling themselves Christians. Every now and then there seems to be another story in the news of a Christian pastor who is exploiting people to get money for some dubious project, sometimes telling people they won’t be blessed if they don’t give. Maybe you’ve had a bad experience of this yourself. Is this what Christianity is all about? Is this what God wants? There is no way I can give a comprehensive look at what the bible says on the subject of money in such a short time but hopefully, it will provoke our thinking and start a discussion.
Before I get into all that I want to ask you a question. Do you like people-watching? Or did you like it in the days when people were allowed out? Has anyone ever seen someone do something stupid because they’re walking while they’re looking at stuff on their phone? Do share your most memorable people-watching moments in the comments.
When Matt was a teenager he worked at the chippy. He was walking home after work one night and walked past the local karate club. A man and a woman walked out of the karate club and started arguing. The argument turned into a fight with lots of kicking and punching and blood. Matt decided it was a good show so just stayed and watched while eating his chips. After a while, the women kicked the man where she shouldn't have and then they apologised to each other and that was the end of the fight.
The reason I’m asking you about people-watching is because this week’s passage in Mark starts with Jesus in the temple in Jerusalem watching the people there? Who does he see? What are they doing? Let’s read the first part of the passage.
Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few pence. (Mark 12:41-42)
So Jesus saw some rich people put large sums of money into the offering bucket at the temple and he saw a poor widow putting a relatively small amount into the offering. But wait…doesn’t this reek of TV evangelists asking for money and exploiting poor people, or of the offering bucket being passed round in a church service? Isn’t this just another example of a religious organisation pressuring people into giving what they can’t afford? We all know that does happen.
The God of the bible certainly doesn’t approve of exploitation. Last week Sally talked about the verses that come before the ones we’ve just read and in them, Jesus had a go at a particular group of religious people saying about them:
- They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely. (Mark 12: 40)
- You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge. (Psalm 14 v 6)
- True spirituality that is pure in the eyes of our Father God is to make a difference in the lives of the orphans, and widows in their troubles, and to refuse to be corrupted by the world’s values. (James 1 v 27)
At the time this was written orphans and widows were some of the most vulnerable people in society so the bible is saying that we should look after vulnerable people. There are many verses in the bible that talk about God being a God of justice and not of exploitation. Often we can judge a faith by its misuse but it is far better to judge it by what it actually says and whether or not it is actually true. For example, if the doctor gave me some liquid medicine and told me to drink it 3 times a day but I decided to rub it on my skin, it wouldn’t mean that the doctor was a bad doctor when I didn’t get better. If I then went and told everyone how rubbish the doctor and the medicine were I would be misrepresenting both. So it is with faith, just because God’s name is used to justify all sort of evil things doesn’t mean that God approves of those evil things.
So should Christians even be talking about money? Should faith affect what we do with our money?
Today in our culture we often see a sacred/ secular split, where matters of faith are seen as private and spiritual and that our beliefs shouldn’t have an effect on how we actually live or on society. Jenny Mariner touched on this at the end of last year in her talk about religion and politics.
If God does in fact exist and is who the bible says He is if He did in fact create the physical world and everything in it from the vastness of the universe and beyond to the detailed world we can see through a microscope if he set the physical and spiritual laws in motion it makes sense that He is THE authority on every aspect of life. If God really is the God of the Bible (which I believe He is) He is the one who has created us in His image out of love and given us innate value and worth. It doesn’t make sense to try to improve our lives by adding a little bit of God or spirituality on the side. It makes much more sense to say, ‘Lord, I submit my whole life to you - including my money.’ And that is part of what it means to be a Christian. A Christian is someone who has stopped living for themselves and has decided to follow Jesus in every area of life, including their money. And God is not a harsh dictator who is out to get us.
Jesus said, ‘If you continue in my word you are really my disciples and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.’
I quote that verse a lot. When we follow God’s way, including in the area of money, it brings freedom because we are living as we are designed to live. I’ve said it before, but a fish that breaks free from the water is not really free because it is now going against the way it was designed. We can manage our money our own way and decide what to spend it on or to keep it all for ourselves but that would be like the fish out of water. When we follow God’s principles with money we’re like the fish in water.
So what did Jesus have to say about the people he was watching in the temple? Let’s read on:
Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.” (Mark 12:43-44)
Is Jesus saying we have to give away all we have? Maybe and maybe not. There is another story in the bible of a rich young man who came to Jesus and Jesus told him to give away everything he had and to follow Him. But to another man, King Solomon, God gave him a huge amount of wealth. The rich young man was a slave to his money whereas Solomon wasn’t. We need to listen to what He is saying to us personally. It’s more to do with who or what we are serving. I don’t have time to go into the topic of how to hear God’s voice now but why wouldn’t God want to speak to the people He created?
Jesus said, ‘No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.’ (Matthew 6 v 24)
If we’re rich we can be addicted to money and want more and more and put our security in what we have. Our identity can be in our prestigious high paying job, our designer gear, our holidays abroad. If we’re poor we can be afraid of not having enough and become obsessed with money that way. God wants our ultimate trust to be in Him, not money or anything else. Why? Because He’s a good father who loves us and wants us to trust Him. Trust speaks of relationship.
Years ago I gave up some stuff to follow Jesus, though I didn’t have a whole lot at the time so I suspect it was a lot easier then than it would be now, and I wasn’t destitute like the widow in the story. For those who are new and don’t know the story, I became a Christian when I was 15 or 16 and totally knew that God had come into my life but somehow still for years after the whole faith thing wasn’t really working for me. I was often anxious and depressed and my mind was a mess. So I told God he had one last chance, either he had to sort my life out or I’d walk away from Him. I looked for gap years being run by churches and I came to look at one being run by Frontline church in Liverpool. When I arrived to look round I had an overwhelming sense that this was where I was meant to be. At this point, I wasn’t always sure that God existed but it was sure I was meant to be in Liverpool. I booked on the course but it cost a certain amount on money which I didn’t have. I went back to Cornwall, where I was working at the time, and saved up some money, sold my car (which was the only thing I had worth selling) and moved up and that year totally changed my life - no exaggeration. That was a long time ago and at the moment I don’t have a sense of God telling us to sell everything but maybe He will in the future and we need to be open to that. The most current question for me about money is, Lord, do you want me to keep volunteering or should I get a job that pays? Or maybe both? I’ll keep praying and figuring it out.
One way that Christians can put God first with their money as an act of faith that He is their provider is to give the first 10% of what they earn back to God. This is what the Bible calls a tithe and it’s something that we do.
We also have the adventure of being able to give more than this. I love this verse:
Let giving flow from your heart, not from a sense of religious duty. Let it spring up freely from the joy of giving—all because God loves hilarious generosity! (2 Corinthians 9 v 7)
I’ve asked a few people how following Jesus has affected the way they handle money and here’s what they have to say.
Kirsty Hart
Sometimes I'm definitely tempted to think about money as something that like makes everything better makes me feel better and makes me happy. But what I recognise is knowing Jesus is that there's nothing that money can buy that compares to the joy and the contentedness that focusing on him and the gift that he gave me. And over the years, he's kind of guided me in different ways. In order to, to help me use my money to be a blessing to other people before, it's a blessing to myself. And so whether that be, you know, just really tiny things like offering to pay for a friend's meal, or maybe giving to charity, and lots of different ways. What I've learned is there are lots of ways to use it as a blessing to others before that, you need to spend it on yourself.
Dan Orange
I have to trust God in my work, and I do trust God. Whenever I go to look at a job, quote for a job, decide whether to accept that job if they said yes, we, we pray about it, me and my wife, and he always provides for us always has done. And it's it's great. It's not easy. We've had a couple of times where it's gone quite down to the wire. And we've prayed together because we've said to God Is this what we should be doing, you know, if you want me to give up this business, and go and get a 9 to 5 job again, then I'll do that. And within hours has provided a great big job, one was with literally within a few hours, I got an email. And the next one was I woke up in the morning. And there's an email saying we want you to do this work. And sometimes we put quotes in and it can take a year before we get anything back. It tells me that God loves me and two, He provides for me.
Beth Copenhall
Hi. Following Jesus means that me and my husband tithe. That means we get the first 10% of all of our income to our local church. We do this because we just really, really trust that God will provide for us that and that he will do more than we can and he is our provider. Nowadays we do it like just out of faith, we don't really think about it, money comes in and we tithe ten percent, that's just like the way it is. And he's never ever, ever let us down when we do this. So, in recent months that we've gone to one income, and we've got one little toddler, and another baby on the way, and there have been months recently, where we've just been like, it doesn't work out, like how we're gonna get to the end of the month. But God, like God just puts on people's hearts just send us money, like randomly. And recently, like, our tyres on the car, were totally bald, and we're like, how are we gonna pay for them? And then a cheque just came through the past, just to cover the cost of all four brand new tyres.
Rach Marshall
I can honestly say that every time I give, I give away, I bless others. It either blesses me on the inside. And I know that I've helped somebody, or God provides to me in some way. And most recently, my husband has been blessed with a bike, bicycle, which has been amazing. And I know that that's a gift from God. So I know that we can trust God. Always. And because he's God, he owns it all anyway. And for me, it's often a bit of an internal heart thing to say, I will believe and trust that God has got my best interests at heart, and that he can use what I give him to bless others. And he also loves me and wants to bless me.
Dan Orange
I know this last year has been very hard for a lot of people with COVID. And we do jobs in people's houses. So we've not always been able to work and we've had to take a loan from the government. But I can still go back in and trust God and thank him for the jobs He's given us. And this these last six months have probably been our busiest and perhaps our best year as a business God provides and it's great having that opportunity to trust him.
Back to the verses about Jesus in the temple watching people putting money into the offering. What did Jesus have to say about it? Jesus didn’t have a go at the rich guys for putting in the offering the amount they did. But he did notice someone who most other people would have overlooked. He saw a poor, widowed woman. Being poor, a widow and a woman would have given her a low social status at that time but Jesus noticed her. And she didn’t have a huge amount to give that would attract attention and make her seem like she was an amazing person. But Jesus noticed her.
Are you someone who is well off? God would say, don’t put your security in your status and your money. You’re no better than someone who is less well off. Are you someone who is struggling to make ends meet? Know that Jesus doesn’t overlook you and that what you have to offer is valued. One of the things I love about being a Christian is that God calls all sorts of people to be part of his family: rich, poor, somewhere in the middle, different nationalities, different skin colours and languages.
Sometimes if we’re going through a financially tough time we can think that we can’t make a difference. We can compare ourselves to someone like Bill Gates who has given away billions and think that our tin of beans we’ve given to the Foodbank is fairly worthless. There’s another story in the bible where a boy gives his lunch to Jesus and Jesus is able to multiply it so that it feeds many. I’m not suggesting that Jesus will literally make a tin of beans expand but that with Him the effect of our giving can be greater than we expect.
In a world where grand gestures of giving are noticed and celebrated Jesus noticed the poor woman’s sacrificial giving. Trusting God with our money can seem like a stupid thing to do if God is as an angry, controlling tyrant but if he is who the bible says he is makes the most sense in the world. The God of the Bible is a loving God who sacrificed everything for us. He has our best interests at heart, but not just our interests, the interests of all people. Here are some verses that speak of God’s sacrificial character:
Romans 8 v 32
For God has proved his love by giving us his greatest treasure, the gift of his Son. And since God freely offered him up as the sacrifice for us all, he certainly won’t withhold from us anything else he has to give.
In summary and to go back to the question I asked at the beginning, ‘Is the church just after my money’, the church, in general, has been guilty of many abuses to do with money and power and this is not right. The church should not be exploiting people or guilting them into giving. However, if you decide to follow Jesus He will have things to say about every area of your life including your money, but it’s not a drag, it’s an adventure.
2 Corinthians 9 v 8
God is able to make it up to you by giving you everything you need and more so that there will not only be enough for your own needs but plenty left over to give joyfully to others. 9 It is as the Scriptures say: “The godly man gives generously to the poor.
Conversation Transcript
Matt Edmundson
Is the church just after my money? I think my if I was to sum it up in one sentence, it would be this. I think God could care less about your money. I think he's got enough of his own. But the Bible is very, very interested in how you spend your money and how you manage your money and it's got all kinds of practical advice, not because God's needs it, but because it's got some ideas on what you do with it. Right. And so therefore what we do with it is a really interesting decision a really interesting choice. And I don't know how you find it, Sal, do you find it easy to talk to people about money? From a Christian point of view? Or do people just think you're a little bit nuts?
Sally Burch
I think if you tell people that aren't Christians, that you give away 10% of your money, I think I think you're absolutely bonkers. I really do. People think what on earth? I mean, lots of people who aren't Christians are incredibly generous, don't get me wrong. I know, lots of my friends who give to charities, you know, support lots of worthy causes and things. I think it's 10%. And then sort of, you know, giving on top of that, that people find a bit mind-blowing.
Matt Edmundson
I agree. And it's worth pointing out what we're not saying is, Christians have the monopoly on generosity. That's not what we're saying at all. I think what's interesting for me in all of this is the reason for giving. So, you know, the Bible talks a lot about we can do this because He first did that, right? We love because he first loved us, we can give because he first gave and I think that's the thing that separates Christians is when we give we give because it's a recognition that actually God has given so much to us that actually it's not a hardship to give back. Does that make sense?
Sally Burch
Yeah, yeah, totally does. I think you know, that there's that sort of giving. And then there's the giving out of the need that we see in the world as well, which is also absolutely, of course, that's so important as well. But yeah, you're right. And I think coming back to the sort of story of the widow, it's all about the heart, isn't it? You sort of touched on that a little bit there, Matt. It's really about the heart of your giving. And why not just because you think, Oh, I gotta give 10%? You know, it's how you actually do that with your heart. Like you say, it's not the amount that you're giving. It's, it's the attitude that you're giving with?
Matt Edmundson
Yeah, I love that analogy, that Bill Gates analogy, do you know what I mean? Bill Gates gives billions and so it's easy to compare what you're giving to something like that, I think why it's not going to make a difference. But then that that idea that, you know, if you're familiar with the Bible, there's a story in the Bible way that Sharon refer to where God takes a small boys lunch, you know, the loaves and the fishes, very famous story. And he takes that small offering that the kid bought, and miraculously did amazing things with it. And I think that's, that's a really good mindset to have. Actually, sometimes we can't give, you know, but a few pence that we have in our wallet, but it's amazing what God can do with that when the heart of the person giving us right.
Sally Burch
Absolutely. I mean, Matt has put in the comments about, you know, not having the money to give but gives in volunteering. Well, that's incredible, isn't it? Because that's you could be earning money and or you know, doing that, but you're actually giving your time volunteering, that is an amazing gift as well. And God will definitely honour that. So that's brilliant, Matt.
Matt Edmundson
Really, really good is it's a really, again, it just really fascinates me because I find I mean, I'm in business, right? And so you meet a lot of business people, and sometimes the easy thing to do.
Sally Burch
Are you Matt? You’ve not mentioned that before!
Matt Edmundson
Have I not mentioned that before? It's that kind of an I find amongst a community of business, it's easy to throw 50 quid at something to make the problem go away, to make the guilt go away. But giving your time, giving your energy, giving yourself into something, well, that, that demands a whole other level of, of generosity, I think sometimes, doesn't it?
Sally Burch
Yeah, absolutely. And, and worth more than money sometimes, you know, isn't it really, I mean, I was just thinking while I was listening to Sharon and I was thinking about a really good example of that sort of giving that made such a difference to my family was when I was a child I grew up, it was just my mom and my brother, and we didn't have very much money at all. And there were times that we would get to the end of the week. And I know my mom has told me in later years that she didn't know how she was going to feed us or how should we going to make that last 50 P, you know, stretch to feed it to the end of the week, and then there would be an envelope of money under the door she'd come home from work and then somebody had put 10 pounds or something in an envelope anonymously and just given that and that that provision was incredible. And, and that that just you know, made such a difference to us. 10 pounds might not have been very much them. But for us, it was you know, whether we would eat or not. And so that's different, obviously, now, I work, my husband works and we don't worry about how we going to eat. But to try and take those principles from my childhood to kind of how we can help other people. I think it's really, really important.
Matt Edmundson
No, it is. Now you're in a position where you give the 10 pounds for somebody to got and eat? Right? That's always the amazing thing. Like I say, Don't ever underestimate the power of a small gift. Now one of the things that people you get asked about this on occasions, but if you've been watching the crowd live stream for a while, you will notice that every week, one thing we don't do, is ask for money. And that's a really interesting decision that we've made not to do that because I know for many people watching the live stream who aren't Christians, money is a big deal. And this belief in this idea that the church is after your money, so we just don't ask for it. Because like I said, we don't, I don't think God need your money. I genuinely don't. I think you should give, and you should give generously. But I don't want to come across, I don't want CROWD to come across as we're just after your money, but do take the opportunities to give.
And I'm going to contradict myself a little bit here, Sal, if that's all right, whilst we don't actually ask for money in the live stream, I am going to tell you that Imagine if trust, James was on a few weeks ago, over the next few weeks is raising funds. And I think if you if you're looking for something to give to then you may want to consider this right? Imagine if Trust has gone and bought a house that is going to be used to house homeless people and, and maybe homeless families, they bought a specific house where they can now do that this will be the third house Imagine if I've done this with, and they fill it with people who are struggling, and they rehabilitate them to living and we've heard from various different people's stories over the last few weeks from Hannah and so on and so forth. They are raising funds for their third house. So have a look at Imagineiftrust.org to find out more information. But that may be something worth thinking about.
Sally Burch
Absolutely brilliant if you want a charity to support, that is an amazing one. And they do so much good with the money that they're given. So definitely wholeheartedly recommend those. Char Tipping is an interesting comment in about the prosperity gospel and how can we give wholeheartedly instead of a having to give-to-get mentality? That's a really good point there, Char. I think prosperity gospel is all about, you know, giving, giving more to get more and it's all about you. It's the focus is on you. What if I give what can I get in return? Yeah. Whereas we're talking about, you know, Heart of giving, where actually you're not giving to get back. If I give God will bless me we're giving because that's what God wants us to do. That's what we've been called to do. And to help those in need that we see around us and in the world. I think that's that the heart is really the difference between those two things. Would you agree, Matt?
Matt Edmundson
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question because the prosperity gospel is a name given to a lot of TV American evangelists, who will say, give us you know, $1,000, and God will bless you a hundredfold, and give you whatever $100,000 and they will take scriptures out of context where it does say, you know, given it shall be given unto you and, and all that sort of stuff. And they take these references from the Bible to create a theology, which says, God is interested in making you a millionaire. And I think at the heart of it, some of those scriptures are right, and my testimony is, and your story just a minute ago, Sal is when you give, God blesses you in return, right? You do there just seem to be this sowing and reaping which you can't get away from in Scripture. It says in Galatians, Paul says, Do not be deceived, right? This is really interesting scripture, do not be deceived. God is not mocked, right, he is not mocked. Whatever you sow, you are going to reap. Okay. And so there is this whole idea of sowing and reaping but like you Sal, so I think it's totally right. Don't be deceived. God is not mocked. If you're thinking that God is some kind of slot machine that you put your, you know, you're pounding, you're going to get 10 pounds out, you're going to be on a road of disappointment and hurt. Whereas if you give because God gave, that's awesome. That's a ride that's worth being on. I have to admit,
Sally Burch
Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah, brilliant. I mean, I think in my life I've seen that was really interesting, wasn't it the kind of testimonies that people had about, you know, how God had given to them exactly what they needed, or just at the right time. And I, you know, showed that example of my childhood, I've seen that in my life, as well at various different times. Worth a try, you know, if you've, if you've never kind of tried that before, if you've never tried sort of asking God for those things that you need, you know, maybe maybe you could give it a go. What have you got to lose?
Matt Edmundson
It is one of the common prayer requests that we get, you know, people are struggling, and God needs to move and so we can pray that God would get involved. And sometimes, and I'm not saying this is all the times but sometimes when you need stuff, God may just lead you to give stuff. It's a really weird idea that God has but it's, you know, it is what's going on.
Sally Burch
An interesting comment from James Sloan: that some of the richest people I've ever met are poor and I think that is about what we class as riches, isn't it? You know, we're talking about money, but there's so much more to riches than just money. So that's a really good point.
Matt Edmundson
I think it's a really great point that actually wealth is not measured by the size of your bank account. But I think it's measured by the bigness of your God, personally, I remember a story - can I tell you a story? It is a bit of a cheeky story. I remember I remember, over the years meeting various billionaires, right, I've met quite a few of them over the years. And it's just, you know, they're amazing people. And there's, some of them are a bit out there, but some of them are lovely. And I remember sitting down with one guy, and I won't mention his name, very eccentric billionaire. And he said to me after we'd been getting to know each other for a number of months, he said, Matt, he called me Matty, actually, he said, Matty, he said, You don't seem bothered by all the money that I've got. Now, you can imagine this billionaire is surrounded by Yes, people, right, who are just Yes, all the time, just because he's got the money. And I was, I was never like that with him. And I said to him, I said, Well, here's the thing, right? The Bible says that the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous. I said, You're the sinner, I'm righteous, I said, everything you've got is technically all mine anyway. He thought I was a little bit nuts, but we were having a little bit of a laugh together.
In other words, my wealth was, you know, compared to him, he had way more money in the bank account. But I think my overall wealth was probably much greater because I knew Christ. And still do, right. And that's, that's a great thing there. So I like that some of the richest people I've met are poor, and they're so happy and content. Sharon's put here, I think the difference and let me put this on the broadcast so you can read it, I think the difference is in seeing ourselves as a channel we receive from God, so that our needs are met, but also so that we can bless others. I think that's a really good analogy. And I'm obviously going to say that because my wife and I especially as I am live on air, I'm gonna say that. But I do think that's a really good analogy. What do you think so?
Sally Burch
Yeah, like that? I like that analogy. Yeah, I think that's really good. Thank you, Sharon. Absolutely. I mean, it is really isn't it about kind of given our heart, we keep coming back to the same thing it is about that heart, isn't it? And that, why, why are we doing this? Why are we talking about giving, I want to make the point as well, that we're not saying that it's wrong to enjoy material things or, you know, to have those nice holidays and do those things that you want to do? You know, with the money that you earn, we're just talking about what God you know, sort of asking God what he might want you to do with those things you've got as well.