19: Nothing is ever wasted with God
Today’s Guest: Ian Dowsett
Ian has been in church leadership for the last 20 years. He is married to Ruth, who leads alongside him, and they have three amazing girls and one very lazy dog. They have planted a church on an estate in Central London and now lead a church in North West London.
Ian briefly taught history, which he still enjoys reading about and is a tentative triathlete and 1-time marathon runner! He also has a heart for the homeless, having helped those on the streets since being a teenager and now as a trustee of FirmFoundation, the homelessness charity in Harrow. He has been a Christian since the age of 9 yet still enjoys discovering new aspects of God’s love and goodness.
Here’s a summary of this week’s story:
Ian talks about his desire to help people deal with their emotional baggage and how while being mentored by an older Christian this desire was birthed in him. He realized that God was there for every decision, not just the big ones, and it opened up a new way for him to depend on God.
Ian felt called to church leadership right from his teenage years but became a history teacher after Uni because he felt God wanted to prepare him in this way. During this time, Ian faced difficult classes with students from different backgrounds and learned valuable lessons about giving people time and getting to know them on an individual level.
Having served as a Church of England vicar for 20 years, Ian shares how his favorite stories to come out of it have always been seeing people change and their lives transformed.
Ian shares his belief that nothing is ever wasted with God, referencing Romans 8:28 which states "all things work together for good". He believes there are times of conflict and disagreement in life, but looking back now he is glad they happened because they made him stronger.
There is a lot of pressure being a church leader and a parent but Ian says mostly he puts the most pressure on himself. His two daughters recently decided to leave their home church, which could have been seen as a failure by others; however Ian saw it as an opportunity for them to spread their wings and grow in maturity.
Ian's one message is to trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. His advice is to stop trying to do things on one's own and instead get onboard with Jesus' program, as it leads to a richer life full of joy and peace.
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Matt Edmundson: Welcome to what's the story? My name is Matt Edmundson, and this is a podcast full of stories about faith and courage from everyday people. And today I am chatting with one of my best mates, Ian Dowsett, about his Christian journey, the challenges he's faced in life, and some of the lessons he's learnt along the way. Now you can find our entire archive of episodes and live streams on our website for free at whatsthestorypodcast.com.
And whilst you're there, make sure you sign up to the newsletter and each week we will email you, uh, the links and the notes from the conversations they get direct to your inbox. Totally four free and make sure you sign up for that now. This episode is brought to you by Crowd Online Church. Hey listen. If you are out there and you're looking for church, check out Crowd Online Church.
Or if you kind of don't see the point of church or you don't get the, you know, you're not quite sure about church, check it out. We think you'll like it. It's all online. crowd.church is our website. Go ahead, have a look, see what you think. Let me know. Now, Ian has been in church, uh, leadership for the last
20 years. I know he doesn't look a day older than 21. Uh, he is married to Ruth, who, uh, leads alongside him and they have three beautiful, very beautiful girls and one very lazy dog. Uh, they've planted a church on an estate in central London and now lead a church in northwest London. Ian briefly taught, uh, history, which he still enjoys reading about and he is a
tentative triathlete, uh, and uh, one time marathon runner apparently. He also has a heart for the homeless. Having helped those on the streets since being a teenager, and now as a trustee of Firm Foundation, the homeless charity in Harrow. He has been a Christian since the age of nine, yet still enjoys discovering new aspects of God's love and goodness. Mate,
welcome to, uh, the What's the Story Podcast. Finally, we get to do this conversation. I've been looking forward to this. How are we doing, sir?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. No, very good. It's, it is great to finally get around to it. We've, we, as you say, we've been planning it for a long time. Yeah. Uh, we've, we've done it in person ourselves many a time, but to do it sort of live, uh, live online as well, so, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Now we record it, so, uh, our kids will watch this back and go, oh, dad, what are you doing?
Ian Dowsett: They'll say that about you.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, they'll say that about me. Yeah. No, it is worth saying it. I did say it in the intro. We have been friends for a very, very long time. Uh, we've been friends what, since uni, so that was back in 92.
Ian Dowsett: Did we meet 91? 92? Yeah. 30 years. Must be 30 years.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 30 long old years. So, Yeah, .
Ian Dowsett: Wow. Time. I survived. I lost the hair.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? It's funny because, um, my two boys now are at uni, which was the same age when We met. It's funny how it all sort of comes full circle, really. Uh, and how out of uni, you know, you make these amazing friends and you sort of stay lifelong friends. And I can see it actually with my boys, uh, at uni as well.
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Interesting. So, um, so for the good folks listening, you are currently in Harrow, right?
Ian Dowsett: Currently a vicar of a church in Harrow called St. Paul's. Uh, although we have just recently announced to our church members that we are planning to move on in the summer. So, yes, we've been here for 14 years.
We've, we've loved serving and being here. We've, uh, grown up, our children have grown up here. Uh, but, but we feel that yeah, incredibly as God leads us through lots of things that he's, he's saying, saying it's time to go. And unlike some people, I don't have a job to go on to, we're trusting good that he's gonna show us what lies ahead.
Mm-hmm. And we are looking forward to seeing what that is over the next couple of months.
Matt Edmundson: Exciting times. Yeah, very exciting times. Really. I mean, that's quite a massive change, isn't it? Because if you've been doing something for 14 years and you feel then, oh, it's time to move on. That's that's, that's quite a big deal.
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. It's a big deal to change in the first place, I guess. You know, the fact that. Um, we are literally stepping out at the moment into nothing. It's a bit like, you know, that Harrison Ford thing and Raiders of the lost ark, where he steps out onto a, you know, an empty space. It feels a little bit like that, but we kind of can see something of what lies ahead.
We, we know that God's gonna use some of our history, our past. He always does that. You know, nothing's ever wasted with God. And yeah, we, he's, he's using the fact that we, we love working with people. Uh, love praying for people, love, um, helping people who particularly maybe feel a bit broken in their lives.
And we've just appreciated the way that God has helped us in our own brokenness, uh, deal with. Often our baggage goes all the way back to childhood. Uh, some of the upbringing stuff, uh, and even along the way where people just dump on us and yet God doesn't want that. He wants to clear us out of all of that rubbish.
Just help us to be freer again. Uh, you know. Mm-hmm. , just imagine all that weight and rubbish being like, you know, stones put into a rugsack and, and it's like God wants to just get rid of those stones and suddenly, suddenly you, you get to motor in life because you don't have that weight bearing you down.
So that's what we love praying with people. Yeah, and helping them feel that same weightlessness freedom that comes from being with him and getting stuff in their past dealt with. So we're hoping to do that with, uh, all sorts of people, uh, where that would be one of the key things that we, we sense for the future for us, for Ruth and me, uh, working together.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. So the, this desire then, I mean, I kind of know the answers before I ask them, but I, I'm aware it's funny, isn't it, when you talk to someone that you're very familiar with. but this desire to help people, um, deal with the baggage, to take the metaphorical rocks outta the rugsack. Was that there when you started at the church in Harrow, that same desire?
Is that why you started there? Or is that sort of something that's happened and sort of come out of your time in Harrow?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah, no, it was, it was already there. Um, I think particularly for me, there was a key moment actually in the place we were in North Kensington. Before that I was journeying with an older Christian who was kind of a bit of my mentor and, and he was, uh, going through some stuff as well.
And just as he went through that, that journey of finding freedom, he kind of helped me process that stuff myself and uh, and really would just open my eyes to the fact of things that I'd, I'd read in the Bible before, things that I'd seen true, but never really applied it to my life. And, and it was like, I've been a Christian, like you say, I've been a Christian since the age of nine.
but sometimes we, we read stuff and, and we know stuff, but we don't live it. We don't actually action it in our lives. And, and so for the first time I actually started actually sort of, you know, really depending on God mm-hmm. about decisions that I was making. And it, I think, I think at one stage I just believed, oh, God was only there for the big decisions in life and actually start, started realizing God is there for every decision in life.
He really is. Does care about, you know, the small stuff. And, and actually it's often when we, we don't see God in the small stuff, that that's when our kind of our lives start to kind of go off track and they go track up a little, then they go track a lot if we keep going down that pathway. So for me it was, it was so good, so good to, to find people I could go, do you know what, this is not right in my life.
I need to deal with. To admit I've got brokenness in me to admit that actually, uh, I'm not this superman that, you know, culture makes us or want to be, uh, that I have got insecurities within me. I've got, uh, a sense of failure sometimes, or a sense of overwhelm. Uh, and actually just to be able to share that with, with God, but also with trusted people around me was fantastic.
And then to pray into it and see God speak. The wonderful thing was God would give us, we, we call it sort of original design. It's like, you know, God unrolling his blueprint for for your life and kind of going, is this how I made you to be? when I designed you, you know, when I designed you, Matt, Ian, it's how I made you to be.
Mm-hmm. . And there's just some lovely, lovely, affirming words. I mean, you know, God spoke over me that I'm a man of integrity, a man of humor, uh, a man of courage. You know, and these are things that I am, but I'm also becoming, yeah. I'm not fully formed in that yet. You know, I'm, I'm not that fully formed person.
It was so affirming to, to have someone speak these things over me. Uh, and God would use images that were pertinent to me. There was stuff that no one else would know or very few people would know, certainly not the people who were praying these things for me. And it would blow me away. It's like, on how Earth know that God?
Uh, you know, how, how on earth did that person know that? It could only been you. So it was incredible. Yeah, absolutely incredible.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. So you have this sort of, this, um, encounter for, want of a better expression than when you are leading a church in North Kensington. All these things sort of come out. You then hit the ground running in Harrow, um, and just, uh, let everyone know you are married at this point, right?
Ian Dowsett: Yep, that's right. Married to Ruth. Married, uh, already number of years by that stage.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. So I read out in the bio that you started out, uh, your working life. So uni finishes for us. Yeah. You go off and become a history teacher. Uh, and, and then all of a sudden you say, again,
Ian Dowsett: why are you laughing?
Matt Edmundson: I'm just gonna
Just, why not? Um, and so , so all of a sudden they, you, you sort of, you start down this road of being a history teacher, and then you're like, no, actually I'm, I, I'm gonna go into the Church of England. I'm gonna do my, my training. What happened there?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. Well, it's, you know, we speak of, of maybe a call. Um, and I felt called to be a leader in the church of some at some point, right from when I was a teenager.
Yeah. So in one sense, it wasn't a new thing. It wasn't like I've started being a teacher and oh, I'm suddenly backtracking. It was, it was more that I knew God was calling me into church leadership. And when I came out of university, I said, okay, God, I'm ready. And he said, well, I'm not sure you are. Uh, and so he kind of said, I want you to do this first.
And so for me, part of my, I guess, being made ready for being a church leader was actually to go into teaching. And it, it wasn't the, I don't think it was the teaching bit that was relevant. I think it was the relating with life relating with you know, children whose backgrounds were very different from mine.
Uh, some children who had had really hard backgrounds coping with lively classrooms where people weren't so interested in learning all the time, more interested in staring out the window or distracting the person next to them. And so, yeah, for me that was part of my, my shaping, my forming. Uh, and God knew that.
I certainly, after the first year of teaching, it had been hard work. I had had one or two classes particularly that were quite defiant. really rowdy, you know, this is just a normal state comp. Mm-hmm. . Um, and after the first year I thought, ah, do you know what I, I've done my year of forming. I, I'm done. I'm gonna move on now.
I spoke to a very wise person, my dad. Yeah. And he said, pleasure, you know, Ian, Don't run away from it. You know, if, if, if God's calling onto church leadership, wait until he calls you to to move on, don't run away. And it was really helpful cuz the next year I only did another year of teaching, but then the next year was totally different and it.
I was able to face up with some of the things that I've been struggling with. Some of the fact that, um, the things that hadn't been going well, I was able to sort of work on, uh, and work through, both in terms of the class themselves, but also the stuff in me that I needed just to deal with. Uh, and I became, you know, I was, I, I left, I left knowing that I had, I, I wasn't running away.
I left knowing that I faced up to those things and seen them through. . Um, and yeah, I, I, I left with my head held high in that sense. Yeah. Uh, and not beaten. Uh, and it was good. And it was good cause I actually saw some of the children who'd been in real pain in the first year actually really turned around and I learned a lot of things.
I learned the power of really giving time to people. Mm-hmm. , getting to know people, you know, if, if you get to know a child's name and get to know something about them, it makes it.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. That's super powerful, man. And it's, um, I mean, teaching, for me, being a teacher, certainly in a, what we call here in the uk, a comprehensive school, a high school, uh, state run school.
It's a hard road man. And my hat's off to anyone that does it well, um, because, geez, but the. . It's interesting, isn't it? You talk to, you didn't run away and I, I think there's this phrase that we use a lot called Finish well or end it well. Yeah. not everything ends well. Not everything can finish well, but wherever, wherever possible, you try and get things to end well.
And um, at least that's one of my philosophies. Right. And so listening to you talk, that's what I'm kind of reminded of. Um, so how important was it for you, do you think, to do that extra year? To finish well, to end it well, to listen to your dad?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think for me it was really important, I say for me, not in the sense of, oh, I, I decided that it was really important.
I think just it was important for me. It's like I say, it was what God was doing in me in that year. It was ultra important and not, not so much for, because I thought it was a good thing, so I'm glad I did it. Um, and, you know, I'm really, I, I, I certainly learned, as I say, I was a teacher. I learned more that year probably than anybody else did.
Um, so I think that's why it was so key. Uh, it was key. And you know, as I say, it's about, So much about life is about people and about wrestling with difficult situations that you have with people. And, uh, and, and the kids in the classroom. They, they were part of that, and they were part, they were partly my teachers in terms of learning how to cope and manage people who can be difficult or people who are, who are struggling because they've got brokenness.
Again, it, you know, it really does come back to that brokenness. You know, a lot of those kids, they were pretty young and yeah, they'd already experienced some really hard stuff in life. And me just being aware that that was the case meant that I could be more patient, more tolerant with them. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, I came out of it definitely having, uh, learned those lessons or learn, certainly learnt some lessons about how to relate to people better.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. And so you, you then leave and you head into, um, uh, I wanna say Bible school, but it's not the proper name for it. Is it
Ian Dowsett: Vic? Vicar Factory? I dunno. Theological college.
Matt Edmundson: Theological College. That's the one I'm looking for. Vicar Factory which is brilliant, isn't it? So, . So you, you head over to the Vicar factory. I'm just, that's all I was just wanting to call it. Yeah. Um, you go to the Vicar factory. Um, how old are you when you, when you hit this place?
Ian Dowsett: Yes. Uh, we, so Ruth and I get married just as we are going, uh, so just before we go, we get married.
Matt Edmundson: And isn't, isn't Ruth famed for saying she was never gonna marry a vicar?
Ian Dowsett: I don't think. that is not true?
Matt Edmundson: I thought, I thought I heard Ruth at some point say she never wanted to be a vicar's wife.
Ian Dowsett: No, then she gets married to someones who was gonna be a Vicar. There you go.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Okay..
Ian Dowsett: But yeah, we, we literally just got married. We as newlyweds went away, went away from our friends that we'd made, uh, in Twickenham. We were now in Oxford, uh, kind of leafy Oxford.
Nice sort of pleasant environment. Uh, and yeah, we were just trying to, I was trying to learn how to be, uh, how to be a vicar and do the job they were. And, uh, we were also at the same time, um, yeah, newly married, trying to learn, learn how to relate well to one another with some mistakes and some errors and, uh, some good stuff on the way as well. But
Matt Edmundson: yeah. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? That whole, um, That whole figuring life out in your early twenties, uh, and especially when you, you, uh, when we got married, cause we all got married quite, quite close to each other, didn't we really? In terms of age range?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. But you, and you'll remember, you know, you remember that even before we got married that, you know, there was a bit of a, oh gosh, there's a bit of a hiccup.
Was this the right thing that we're doing? And, and again. Praise God we did.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. All worked out in the end, didn't it? Had, uh, you have three beautiful girls, um, and, uh, you, so you, you, you go from Vicar Factory , and then you go to, uh, your first post in London, and then from there you. Am I right in saying that from that you go to Harrow?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah, that's right. So we were in North Kensington. So we went from this leafy suburb of, of Oxford. Literally the, you know, we looked out onto this, this, we were in a flat, we looked out onto the garden at the back of the flat. We didn't need net curtains, anything like that. Cause it was all quiet.
And at nighttime there was hardly any lights at all. Mm-hmm. . And then we, we moved to this house in the middle of a, a London estate right on the corner of the road where we, we'd have these motorbikes, which were, were around. That's, you know, they'd start about eight o'clock at night and then keep going until about 11, 12 at night.
And, uh, and we thought, well, have we done, we've moved from idyllic country, uh, side type place into, into the middle of, uh, what felt like noisy. Noisy hell, almost. Mm-hmm. . I mean, we had a guy got stabbed right outside the door. Um, couple of weeks in, I think. Uh, he, he didn't die fortunately, but, you know, um, and we thought, what have we done?
Uh, and, and the, one of the verses that really, um, you know, scripture's always good. I find for me to hold on to when I've got a particular passage that, uh, and, and for me, it was when we moved that time as Psalm 27 verse one, uh, which is the Lord is my light, uh, and my salvation. Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life.
Of whom shall I be afraid? You know, quite honestly, it was scary. You know, it was scary to stop, be lying in bed and hearing these noises go round and round and see the light to the cars. Uh, and to, to begin with, you kind of thought, well, what have we done? And, you know, it was while we were there that we had kids.
So we had young kids, you know, kid, we had three kids under four, uh, in that, in that place. And, and at times you kind of think, what one earth are we doing? But God was with us, uh, and. Yeah, he did. He, he really, he, he, he was really gracious to us in that place. And we, we, we, we would sit on the front door with all these people coming past and get to know them.
And that was part of our ministry was just getting to know them, that the neighbors and, and, and the community and really saying to people in the community, look, you matter. You matter. Yeah. Um, you know, some, some of you may have lived broken lives, but you matter to God. Uh, and we wanna do things that, that, that celebrate that.
I can remember one thing we did was, um, we did a, a good Neighbors award. Okay. And literally we just, we just went around the neighborhood saying, Hey, do you wanna nominate one of your neighbors for being good neighbors? We heard some stories about bad neighbors as well. . I bet you did. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Um, but, but, but we, you know, we wanted, but the thing is, we were so fed up for people knocking where they lived.
We just wanted to say people look, there are good stories here too. Yeah. And so what we wanted to do was draw out just some of that, those good stories and say, look guys, it's not all bad. You know, if you could, if you will just open your eyes for a moment, you'll see God at work. Uh, and so it was just a way of, you know, hearing some stories.
And then we literally, we, we, we then invited these people who'd been nominated and just gave them all a lovely certificate and, you know, got, I can't remember, got sort of dignitary to come along and sort of, uh, uh, give them their prizes and stuff like that. And, but it was great. It was great just to celebrate that.
Matt Edmundson: Interesting. Yeah. I imagine that actually went down quite well.
Ian Dowsett: Oh, it was, yeah. No, it was great. You know, I think, I think the people, people who were nominating, uh, as well as the people who, who, who, who won prizes that they, they, they liked telling their stories. They, they wanted to tell about their, their, their, their neighbors who'd really helped them out.
You know, the people who'd sort of looked after their kids when they couldn't, couldn't be there, or, you know, the people, um, yeah, who, who who've done incredible things themselves. We, um, funnily enough, one, one of the people. Who was nominated was, uh, guys that lived next door. And it was just, you know, the, just the way they cared for, for their son who, who had, um, physical difficulties, uh, and somebody else had nominated them.
And it just, just, it was just lovely to sort of celebrate the way they parented this child who. Who, who, you know, he, he, he, you know, he was, he had a lot of physical difficulties. It meant they had to sacrifice a lot to care for him. Uh, and yeah, they did that and, and, uh, and it was lovely to celebrate their, their effort.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, bet. And I, I would imagine it, it's those kind of things where you'll go back to their house 20 years later and some of them must still have their certificates out all there. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
It's really fascinating, uh, how you, how you see that all these years later. And it still means a lot to people because actually a lot of people aren't told good things, um, certainly about them, uh, all that often, which is a shame.
So I'm curious, mate, right, you've been doing church leadership now 20 years. Um, you've been a, a, a vicar for, uh, in, or you've been in the Church of England, haven't you, for 20 years now. What are some of your favorite stories to come out of that? Because I mean, you get to walk with people through birth, through christenings, through marriages, through funerals.
You have to do it all, don't you? As, as a, yeah. A vicar of a church of England, and I'm just kind of curious, what are some of the, the, the hero stories or, no hero's the wrong phrase, but some, some really heartwarming stories I suppose, that have come out of it.
Ian Dowsett: I think, I think always it's seeing people change.
You know, those are the heartwarming stories. It's seeing people, um, whose lives sometimes are. , uh, not good. And, and, and just incredibly that they, they, they sort of meet with you a, a as, I guess, a representative of God, and then they get to meet God themselves. Mm-hmm. And, you know, to me it's not about meeting me.
It's not about, you know, Ian being a wonderful person. It's about the fact that I can, I, I've just got someone that they can be introduced to and that they can be introduced to Jesus and get to know him and, and realize that he's the one that makes a difference. Mm-hmm. When we left North Kensington. One of the, I I, I'd worked along the road at the community center with a number of young, uh, children and one of the, one of the young girls who, who joined our, our, our club, uh, kind of youth club and then eventually started coming along to, to church.
She wrote me, um, she wrote me a letter and, you know, it was all about how she'd changed because she'd met Jesus through me and for me that that's a heartwarming story. Cause it, oh yeah, I bet he's somebody you, you know, who's directly saying, you, you've made a difference in my life and mm-hmm. Um, you know, and it was, it was great to see, you know, he was a, um, a girl who was from a broken family, you know, mom loved her dearly, was certainly looking after her, but, um, she was living up living on this estate where, you know, and she could have gone anyway.
Yeah. And, and yet she chose to, and she came along to church. She, you know, mum wasn't sickly up for coming, but she came along to church anyway. Her mum was supportive, but you know, didn't particularly want to come herself. And, uh, and so she just let her daughter come along and, and her daughter just flourished.
And it was, it was great to see. Um, so that, that, that's heartwarming. And what we've seen here, we've seen that as well. We've. people whose people whose, whose lives ha have turned around. Mm-hmm. again, one, the people who's now working on staff with us, uh, here at St. Paul's. Oh, wow. She came to us as somebody who I, I'm not interested in this stuff.
Um, you know, I've never really been interested in, in God or Gods stuff. I've ignored him all my life. And then just was walking along one day, saw the fact we'd got a poster up to do Alpha, which is a kind of, come and ask questions about Jesus type course. And um, so she just felt drawn to come in and she did.
And she probably didn't know what she was doing at the time, . Um, but she came on that and she, she made, she, you know, as she was going through, she, she asked the questions that she'd got and came to the point where she went, Do, you know what I mean? There's something in this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for this.
And she, she made a commitment to say, you know, God, come into my life. And she hasn't looked back. She's, you know, incredibly been changed. Um, a as I say, to, to the point where she's now working on staff with us, uh, at the church and is blessing loads of other people and is, is generous, is warm hearted, has come out of herself.
I think probably in ways that she, she would've been a very defended person in the past. Mm-hmm. You know, it's just wonderfully warm and uh, and giving now and yeah, I think she would look back on her old self and sort of say. I've just, I've been transformed. I've been changed. Yeah. And that's what,
Matt Edmundson: that's awesome.
Yeah. It is in the business of doing that, isn't he really? Uh, the, the whole transformation thing. You mentioned earlier, actually, one of the statements you made was, um, nothing is ever wasted with God. Yeah. Um, and I'm kind of curious, let's dig into that a little bit. What do you mean by that phrase?
Ian Dowsett: Well, as a phrase, uh, in Romans, which says that all things work together for good, for those who love God. And, um, there's a lot of things that happen in life, which we have to say that isn't, that in itself wasn't a good thing. Mm-hmm. . Um, so we will, you know, um, we, we've had lots of conflict, I think, you know, as church leaders. Ruth & I as wife and husband, you know, we've had, uh, we'll have times of conflict and disagreement and, and actually.
I, I would, looking back on it now, I would say I'm glad we've had those conflicts and worked through them and it's the working through the key bit there, but I'm glad we've had the conflicts and worked through them. I don't think our marriage would be the same if we hadn't had those things. . Mm. So when I say nothing's wasted, it's like we might have times when we've fallen out and we've, um, had to sort of really sit down and talk through.
Why is it that you do that, Ian, why does that, why don't you understand me? Why aren't you caring? Um, and then I've, you know, I've been able to sort of say my bit and, and we've had to wrestle through, you know, often to a place of compromise, uh, in order to realize. Actually, now that we've taught that through, we know one another better.
Yeah. And now that we know one another better, our relationship is stronger. Yeah. And now actually we are in a better place than we were. Yeah. So, you know, it's all very well said. You know, and I, I meet, I meet people when I'm getting them ready to being married, you know, when I'm marry them in church. And, and I'll always say to people, you know, have you, have you, have you had a falling out yet?
Have you over some people, They haven't yet, but you kind of go, well, I hope you do soon, because, you know, actually part of the relationship is disagreeing well, yeah. Uh, learning how to cope with conflict well and coming through it. And, and I know I've shared with you in the past, you know, as a, as, as a close friend, you know, sometimes when we've had, you know, there've been difficult things in church life where we've, you know, people have been.
Uh, maybe haven't understood why we're doing things, uh, and therefore have kind of got the hump with us. Or maybe we've sometimes, maybe sometimes we've got the hump with others. But, um, you know, actually, but, but when you work, when you really sit down and, and hear one another well generally, if there is an openness on both sides, then you can work those things through.
Yeah. Occasionally you just have to walk your separate ways. Mm. Uh, but, but, but those, those times can be incredible. Or, um, yeah. We've had, you know, a number of people who we've, I can think of, you know, certainly quite a few people who we've had to sit down. I've had to sit down and go, look, I, I, I've got the feeling here.
All is not well between you and me. Mm. Uh, you know, they're a bit cold to me. Then they're not speaking to me. And then they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll turn around and say, , Ian, you said this or you did this and, and you know, it made me feel really rubbish or it made me feel like you didn't think what I had to say was important.
Mm-hmm. , and, you know, I'd worked through with them nine times outta 10. It was, they maybe misunderstood me slightly or I'd. I've missed said it when I was doing it. Yeah, yeah. And I said, sorry. Uh, and we've moved on from that, or, or they've kind of gone, oh, okay. Actually I realized I misunderstood you.
Sorry. And, you know, we've moved forward together. Um, yeah, those are, yeah. So things aren't wasted. And, and I do think often those are the things that make you stronger. I think they say that when you're, you know, you break a bone, but then it heals again. Actually sometimes it, it can be even stronger in that place of the break that.
Um, uh, so yeah, it's not all bad. It's not all bad.
Matt Edmundson: It's, it's really powerful lesson, isn't it? Because I, I, like you, I can look back over my life and I can go, well, that experience wasn't great. , but out of that has come this. Yeah. I'm not saying that God caused that experience over there. Right. Um, but what I am saying is out of that, God has created something wonderful, uh, and he's not necessarily been, uh, derailed for want of a better expression by probably my own stupidity.
Uh, and it's interesting how you talked about the transformation. , you know, the, the heartwarming stories and then, you know, you talked about yourself and Ruth and conflict with church members, so the transformations not just for people who are necessarily outside of church or broken. I'm listening to you talking.
It's as much for you as it is for your congregants. Is that the right word?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah, yeah. It will probably, we're, we're, we're all, we, we've all got brokenness and we'll never not have brokenness this side of heaven. For me, it's about not wanting to remain broken and it's sick feeling when I realize that I'm broken.
Um, so yeah, it's, you know, I think sometimes people think. And people think the problem with church is they're full of perpetrators and they're full of people who do things that they shouldn't be doing. And reality is that's because they're broken people and they're, they're on the journey. If somebody's not changing at all, then I would argue that then they're probably not opening themselves up to Jesus, uh, in order that you can help them change.
Uh, but I think if we are open to it. God can change anybody. Yeah. If, if they're open to it, you know, it doesn't matter whether you've been a Christian for 40 years, you can still sometimes have really deep-rooted stuff in your life that still needs dealing with, uh, uh, and you can be in somebody who's completely new to faith, uh, and God can be at work on you there as well.
And sometimes there's a grace. I think sometimes there's a grace for people who've just come to faith in Christ. Sometimes you think he, he solves things really quickly for them and other times they, they just, yeah, you have to work those out at a long period of time. For me, one of my things was growing up I was often quite, um, angry internally.
So if I got cross, I would internalize it. Mm-hmm. , hide it, push it down, and then suddenly snap. And if I snapped, normally what I would do is I'd break something that was around me and that, that, you know, as a kid, that's, that's kind of how I would cope with my negative emotions And so one of the things in, in later life is, is kind of learning to give that to God, learning to express it earlier.
Mm-hmm. , um, rather than pushing down, pushing down and having this sort of explosion type thing come later. And, you know, that's important cuz you know, when you've got kids, uh, around in the house, you don't want to be just flying off the handle at any time, and you know, occasionally that would still happen.
Mm-hmm. , but certainly I was, you know, I know I'm, I'm a less angry, more balanced person for the fact that I've been able to give that stuff to God. See him work on me.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. No, that's a fair comment. It's interesting isn't it? How um, uh, you know, when we, when we look at the, I have this conversation quite a lot.
I dunno if you're like me digs where because my kids are of a certain age, I'm very interested in the current culture that they're growing up in. Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I'm very aware of the, the sort of the ideals of society and I'm like, that's just weird, or that needs to change or that needs to change.
But quite often in the midst of that, as you are praying, God. You know, sort it out. He tends to focus on me first. , Do you know what I mean? It's like, and if I've never, I've never dared pray the Prayer, God, you need to change Sharon, my wife, cuz she's just bang out of order. Because I know as soon as those words come out of my mouth, God's just gonna, it's almost like God's gonna slap me upside the head and go, Matt, dude, come on.
Uh, hange starts with you. Right? And um, it's interesting isn't it, as listening to you talk, but actually a lot of this stuff, uh, God deals with is with us first. Right?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah, yeah. No, it's good. There's, there's a guy called Danny Silk who, who, um, is a church pastor in the States, and he wrote a book about parenting, which I found really helpful.
Mm. And it, he talked about, um, often as a dad, he'd be like, this big yellow truck, you know, like, yeah. You know, he'd come into the situation, he'd just roll over it, you know. You know, and he'd, he'd, he'd try and ta take charge and like, you know, one of those big, you know, massive wheel dumper trucks would sort of essentially kind of come into the situation like that.
Uh, and, and I recognized, yeah, that was me quite often. That was me. That was what I was doing as dad, I would kind of come into the situation as dad and sort of stomp all over the kid, not literally stomp all over the kid. It's ok. Um, but, but, um, but you know, I just take charge and, and actually I realized that I actually had to start
treating my kids, listening to them, hearing them better, listening to what they had to say, listening to their perspective that two of them had been fighting, actually sitting down and really hearing what both of them had to say. Um, and learning to, to not be that dumper truck thing. And actually, as you say, learning that I had to actually kind of go, it's not actually their stuff, the first thing I've gotta do is deal with how I am responding to this situation.
Yeah. Deal with my response. Okay. So I'm getting fed up that I can't read my newspaper or watch TV because they're making noise. They're kids, they're playing, they're having, you know, yeah. It's like, you know, they don't know that I've had a hard day. They don't know that. Uh, and it's kind of having to go, okay, Lord.
Alright. That's, that's my stuff there. Uh, and it's actually, it's incredible how their stuff seems more manageable when you've dealt with your stuff. their stuff more manageable when you've dealt with your stuff. Yeah, totally. Is, yeah. Just in that place of you, you, you are more peaceful. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, if they're, if they're sort of answering back to you, it's less of an issue.
Yeah. When you are more at peace, it washes off you a bit more and you're able just to deal with the actual problem. Mm-hmm. , just ignore that sort of backchat. Um, you know, and just get to the heart of it.
Matt Edmundson: How have you found then, um, being both a parent and a husband as a church leader? Because it's, as a church leader, you are under a constant microscope, aren't you?
Everybody's watching how you do things. So have you felt the pressure to try and be a, I dunno what the right word to, to use is, but sort of be a better parent or a better husband than maybe. Uh, you would've felt had you not been a church leader because you're not under that microscope.
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. It's interesting.
There's been a few times when people have said things either said things directly to our kids about their behavior and, uh, or I know an occasion said, you should know better because you are the Vicar's kids, or something like that. Um, and that's a required patience on my part to not snap,
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Punch 'em in the head.
Ian Dowsett: Um, , but you actually, you know, I'll be honest, generally the, the church we've been in has been a really gracious church generally. Mm-hmm. . So I would say not too much. Um, I would say most of any, most of the pressure, most of the expectation would probably be myself on myself. Right. Rather, rather than from other people, if I'm honest.
Mm-hmm. , um, it's been interesting recently, um, in the last couple of years, two of our girls are no longer in the church that we worship at, they, they still love Jesus. They still go to church, but, um, they've kind of come to us and said, um, you know, this church that you are running, um, we, we don't wanna be here anymore.
uh, for various reasons, you know, and, and, and it was just more a case. I think it's more of a case that they need to spread their wings and do their own thing. Mm-hmm. and I get that. And, you know, I think we could have. We could have said, oh, well what will people think about us? You know, will they think, oh, we've failed with our kids cuz they're, they're not coming to our church.
Our church not good enough? If your children aren't coming here, why should I send my children here? Mm-hmm. . Um, and I think we've just gone like, you know, this is what our children need for now. Yeah. This know, they're, they're all over, over 16 when they did it, it wasn't, you know, um, but it's been fine. And, and they actually, what I've seen is, They're, they're, they're, they're much more mature.
They're, they're much more excited and engaged in life. Hmm. Uh, they've got to know new people. Yeah. They're more rounded for it. Um, so I, we, and we've lost nothing from it. Um, so, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. And actually they've gained, cuz obviously I know your daughters and you kind of go, well, they've got, they've got actually quite wonderful relationships with God themselves, and they're not on mum and dad's faith.
Right. They're, um, they're, they're, they're very much, no, this is my journey, my story now. And that's quite wonderful to see because I think it's easy to, to sort of just drift along, isn't it? And they've not done that, so hats off to them, you know? And I think it's funny watching my own kids, um, I just, it.
the sort of, the two boys have gone off to Uni and you kind of think, you look at the fact that they've got involved in church, they've got involved in the CU, they're different churches, different, and it's actually been really good for them. You know, they're figuring it out for themselves and I, I quite enjoy watching that You know.
Yeah. Really enjoy watching that. Um, Let me just come back to it. I, I, I always write notes, mate, whenever I'm doing interviews and I, I wrote down the word letter and I circled it and I just want to come back to a point you mentioned earlier about how someone wrote you a letter saying how their life had changed, um, because they met Christ through you.
Right? If you are listening to this podcast or if you're watching it on YouTube, uh, and you are part of a church, can I encourage you to write to your dear church leaders and just say thanks, um, because that simple act, I mean, you talk about it with a smile on your face and you know, and it, it's one of those things where I think it makes a big difference, right to church leaders, just the encouragement from people who are just heartfelt in their thanks.
Ian Dowsett: I, I still re, I still remember the day as a teacher, uh, when one of the other teachers said something complimentary to me, , uh, you know, and it was like okay, that's good. You know, it's like, you know, we, the things that people say when they say thank you or well done, you know, sadly, sometimes we can count on, you know, maybe one, maybe two hands.
Mm-hmm. , but because we, we just sometimes don't do it enough. Yeah. It's interesting. We, we've just told our church that we are leaving, so we've just had a whole lot of people saying, oh, we really gonna miss you. You know, and they've said this, this, and this, and, and, And, and like you say, it would, it'd be great sometimes if people didn't, we didn't have to go for people to say that.
Yeah, yeah. To be fair you know, some of them have said it through the years as well. Yeah. But, but yeah, absolutely. Bless, bless. You know, and it, it's not, it's not just true of church leaders, I'd say, but anybody in your workplaces learn. Learn to learn to praise. Learn to thank people. Learn to encourage, uh, and speak out. Don't wait until people die to say nice things about them.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, super true. Because as, I mean, I telling you before we hit record, I, I was at a funeral this afternoon. Mm-hmm. , uh, and, um, I came away from the funeral thinking, oh, the person that had passed away, she was young and yeah, beautiful lady. I've known her for a few years.
Had the most amazing smile. But because of the way Covid was, I'd not really seen her for a few years. And I came away thinking, I wished I'd called up with her a little bit, you know, um, before she'd passed away. Uh, . And I think it, you, you're right, you can, you think of these things too late, don't you? Quite often.
And actually, um, if I think, you know, there are people that are important in your life, just say thank you. Uh, just appreciate what they do. Really, really helpful. No, very good. Okay, mate. So we've got to that part of the show where I say to you, right, um, what is your one message. Like I know you, you preach a lot, right?
You're, you're a church leader, but if you just had one message, which you could give, and the reality of it probably is like me, you've got one message which you keep coming back to all the time anyway, regardless of what the topic is. Yeah. Um, what would that be?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. Um, I think for me it comes back to a verse in the Bible, which is Proverbs three verse five and six, which says trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge him. Mm-hmm. He will make your paths straight. And for me, I the, I think the first time I really remember that verse was a number of people gave it to me when I went traveling around the world. And I totally saw that to be true as I travel around the world.
In fact, actually funny enough, I found an old document I came across with, this is 20 things that already in about two months God had done for me. In that time of traveling around the world and, and just by depending on him, uh, and just trusting him. Yeah. He helps us through life and he makes, as it were, our paths straight sometimes when we don't even see where there's gonna be a path.
Yeah. For me, that's my message is, Ian, stop trying to do it on your own. Stop trying to be a proud person to do it your own strength. Remember there's somebody alongside somebody who, um, who can help you, somebody who can do it so much better than you can. Uh, so why don't you just, uh, ask for his help mm-hmm. , uh, and get on board with his program rather than trying to run things your way.
Uh, and that would be my sense is, you know, if you want a life which is really rich, if you want a life which is really fulfilled, then stop trying to do it your way and start doing Jesus' way because it's so much richer, so much better, so much more, um, yeah, fulfilling and life-giving and full of joy and peace, uh, if you do it his way.
So I, and I constantly say that on, on the days where I kind of think, oh, I dunno what I'm gonna do today about this problem. You know, suddenly the, I know that we've suddenly discovered that the gas bill is triple at the church and how are we ever gonna pay for that? And just, I just said to myself, you know, don't, don't go there, Ian. Don't try and do it. Figure it out on your own. Go to him first and seek his counsel. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Trust in the Lord. I, the, the, the husband of the lady that passed away said at the funeral, uh, he said, um, in his talk that when she found out That she had cancer cuz she passed away from cancer. When she found out she had cancer.
The, when she was first given the diagnosis, the two, the first two words out of her mouth were, let's pray. Um, and I think as I'm listening to you talking about trust in the Lord, I'm remembering that story and it's like, we've got this news. It's not good. Going back to the, nothing is ever wasted with God.
Let's pray. Let's trust that God somehow in the middle of all of this, can turn things around and do something quite extraordinary, uh, with what's going on. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. So let me ask you my Oscar's question, uh, because I like my Oscar's question and I'm asking everybody, uh, just cuz I can, um, so , you're at the Oscars, right?
You've won an Oscar, a Lifetime Achievement award for, uh, digger Dowsett here. Um, uh, Digger, by the way, is our nickname for Ian. Uh, so if you, uh, if you get to know him, just start calling him Digger. Uh, if you following on the podcast, um, so you get this lifetime achievement award, right? And you stand up at the awards ceremony and everyone's going crazy.
Um, And you unfurl a piece of paper, uh, and you start off with this statement, I would just like to thank dot, dot, dot, um, whether it's a, a preacher, a parent, family member, whoever, who's on your list of people that you, that you want to thank for Dowsett Ian Reverend?
Ian Dowsett: We've got another hour. Is that right?
Matt Edmundson: To be fair, I'm looking at your video feed right and it's getting darker and darker and there, that's much better. So if you're watching the YouTube video, must he's talking to himself as his voice coming from somewhere. We don't know, but there he is. There's Ian. Uh, so yeah, go for it. Who you're? Who are you thanking bud?
Ian Dowsett: Oh gosh. Well, I, I think I, I would definitely start with the person who's helped me learn more about myself than anybody else, uh, which is my wife.
Uh, so Ruth would be the first, the first thank you would say to my wife, she's been fantastic. She, she's put up with me. I think that's, that's the most amazing thing I can say about her. But I just, I love doing life with her. And, and you know, one of the great things has been we do, we do a lot together.
Actually. We are, we are not one of those, you know, You know, we are, we love the fact that we, we like doing stuff together. We, we like working together and, you know, we are not the same. We compliment each other. There's some things that we liked that is the same and, and other things that aren't, but we compliment each other.
Well, yeah, I'm, I'm super grateful to, yeah. For her, I think I'd be re I'd say definitely my parents, they, they were the ones. Ultimately who started me on my faith journey. Yeah. Uh, because they, they too love Jesus and they've always modeled that. Um, I know that when it comes the my parents' funeral, there'll be so many people who have said, these people touched my life.
And I would certainly be one of them and say that, you know, they gave me life. Uh, but also they, they, they showed me so many great characteristics about life as well. So they're, yeah, they're fantastic people and
Matt Edmundson: they are absolute legends. And, um, I mean, for many years we'd, we'd power around your house on New Year's Eve, uh, take over the house, uh, as we, as our friendships grew and, uh, we, we all got married and they were so gracious and, and wonderful and it was, we always look forward to seeing Pete and Mary every, every New Year's, you know, and it was just fantastic.
And, um, I remember early on in our marriage, Sharon had a few questions. , uh, about a few things and she's like, I'm just gonna call Mary. I said, I'm just gonna call Mary. I'm just going, I'm gonna do, and she ends up speaking to your mum and go, what do you think about that I was like, thanks very much. I appreciate that. And so, no, your parents are legends, absolute legends.
Ian Dowsett: Brilliant. Yeah, no, they're great. I think one of the other guys who I would, I mean there's many people who, who helped me through my early years, but I think one of the guys who's been uh, absolutely fantastic is. Lees is a guy who was a, he was a curator at our church when I was growing up.
Um, but I've stayed in touch with him for ye for years now. We're still in touch at the moment. Uh, and, and it's been great because actually our relationship has changed. It's changed from sort of, I suppose, sort of the person I sort of look up to more now to being more of a big brother type figure. Yeah.
Um, and you know, Yeah, he was, he was the, the person I, I, I said earlier about really was moving on in freedom himself and, and helped me move on in that. I'm super grateful that, uh, I was around when that happened for him and in order that I could kind of follow along and yeah. Catch up and learn stuff from him.
And he, he's always been super generous, super vulnerable. Mm-hmm. , no, that's, that's part of it. He, he would, he'd set, share the bad stuff that was going on for him in order that I could learn from that, uh, you know, he'd be really honest with me about some of his failings in order that Yeah. You know, that I, he, he was a real person, you know?
Yeah. And it's like, I, I, I think that, , you know, but I look at you Stuart, and you, you seem like you've got it all together. And then he'd, he'd tell you something about his inner story and he'd kind of, I'd be like, yeah, but that's how I feel. Yeah. I, I don't, and, and so just the fact that someone would be vulnerable with you, uh, that just is so precious.
Um, so I'm so grateful to, to, to him for, for that vulnerability and just, uh, journeying with me for so long. And occasionally managing me too.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? That whole, um, mentor thing, uh, was a word you used earlier. That whole, someone doing life with you who's probably just a little bit further on, we sometimes throw around this phrase, discipleship in church.
Um, but it's that whole kind of thing, isn't it? Just doing life with people. Uh, and I'm. I, I'm very aware of people that have done that with me. You know, I think about Dave Connolly and um, and you just kind of think, oh, I'm so grateful for these people who were vulnerable, willing to share, encourage me when I needed encouraging, punch me in the head when I needed punching in the head
Do you know what I mean? They're just awesome, awesome people. And it's one of the things that I love about the church is this, we're not perfect. Like you say, we are a bit hypocritical on occasions. But there is a genuine desire to see God's kingdom come. Uh, and when you find somebody with that kind of heart, man, your life changes, doesn't it?
Ian Dowsett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you know that that's it, isn't it? We we're not perfect people. But if we're trying to change, uh, then that's, that's an important thing. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, totally. So digs, you're a legend. Legend. Thanks for being my mate all these years. Um, I still remember when we first met at uni, uh, and started getting together in, in halls.
I was a very new Christian at this point in time and, and you and Dan Pryor and people like that totally encouraged me in my faith. And so whilst mentors are good, good mates are good too. Uh, and, um, I'm super lucky that we. Say again.
Ian Dowsett: I forgot to mention you as one of the people.
Matt Edmundson: I don't think you forgot at all.
That's way down the list. That's fine. Uh, but, that's awesome.
Ian Dowsett: Well now I'll not be broadcast.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll just edit that bit out. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So, Uh, if you would like to get a hold of Ian, if you'd like to connect with him, find out more about what he is doing, then you can reach Ian through the Crowd Church website, www.crowd.church.
Or you can go to the What's the Story website, which is whatsthestorypodcast.com, which I is exactly the same. You'll think, oh, this all looks awful lot like the Crowd Church website. Did they go the same place? Its just what it is. Uh, but digger. You're a legend, man. Love the bones off you. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.
Time has gone by so quickly. We might have to do this again, part two. Yeah, that'll be follow up. Um, yeah, you're a legend, you and Ruth. Awesome, awesome people Love you Loads. Thanks for being on the show, man.
Ian Dowsett: Well mate, lovely to be with you.
Matt Edmundson: We will of course, link to Ian in the show notes. Uh, if you wanna get hold of him, like I say through the Crowd Church stuff, uh, it's all on the website along with the transcripts and all that sort of stuff.
And of course, if you'll sign up to the newsletter, that all comes straight to your inbox automatically. So there you have it. What a phenomenal conversation with my very good mate. Uh, thanks again to Ian for joining me. Remember to check out Crowd Online Church. www.crowd.church is the website. Even if you don't see the point of church.
We are an online church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps us live this more meaningful life that Ian was talking about. We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where you can contribute and grow. And you are welcome at Crowd Church. Be sure to subscribe to what's the story wherever you get your podcast from, because we've got some more great episodes lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them.
And in case no one has told you yet today, You are awesome. Yes, you are. You are created awesome. And it is a burden you just have to bear. That's the way it goes. Uh, what's the story is produced by Crowd Online Church. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.
Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson, and if you'd like to read the transcript or show notes. As I said, head over to the website whatsthestorypodcast.com and sign up to them weekly newsletter, while you are there. That's it from me. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week. I will see you next time. Bye for now.