21: Smuggling Bibles, Surviving Danger, and Embracing God's Grace

What's the Story
Written By Matt Edmundson
 

Today’s Guest: Mark Buchannan

Mark has been a Christian since he was just three years old. He's done it all - from Bible College to preaching on the streets, planting a church, and leading worship. He's preached to over 20,000 people, organized conferences worldwide, and even smuggled Bibles! Currently, he is working on a Christian response to poverty in the world of Fair Trade.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

  • Mark became a Christian at the age of three after he realized that his naughty behavior was not pleasing to God. His parents explained to him the concept of Jesus and salvation, which led Mark to give his life to God. Despite occasional doubts and struggles, he has never looked back since then, and believes that the grace of God is what keeps him on track.

  • Mark, who grew up as a pastor's kid, shares his story of being beaten up every day for six years due to his Christian faith and his father being a pastor. Despite the violence, Mark persevered and was determined to speak up for his beliefs.

  • Mark believes that bullying has shaped him, but he doesn't feel bitter about it. Growing up assuming that everyone didn't like him has made him less impacted by people's opinions of him. Despite the difficult experiences, he had a good childhood and a strong theological framework that helped him understand the purpose of suffering in life.

  • As part of his work with Derek Prince Ministries, Mark shares how he would smuggled Bibles into the Middle East, where many people did not have access to them due to legal restrictions and the risks and life-threatening situations he had to encounter as part of that.

  • The extreme tension and busy lifestyle broke his marriage. He learned that sometimes the biggest threat to a relationship with God is being too busy working for Him. He left as a divorced man and found God in a less traditional and showy way, which was earth-shattering and destabilizing but ultimately transformative.

  • Mark talks about God's forgiveness and the need to keep moving forward despite past mistakes. He emphasizes the need to keep going and never give up, and that God is in the business of redemption.

  • Mark's one message is about perseverance. It is a collaborative process between our efforts and God's redemption. We need to acknowledge and confront sin, but not give up because God can redeem anything and anybody.

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  • Mark: we got separated from a convoy on the same trip and had to hide from Saddam's kill squad. They looked through the window of the house where we were, looked up, left, right, and forwards, and did not look down, which is the only natural place to look where we were hiding underneath the windowsill.

    So I just saw God's incredible provision to the point where it was absolutely terrifying but incredibly exhilarating cuz you just think, yeah, it was life or death and it turned out to

    Matt: Welcome to what's the story? My name is Matt Edmundson, and this is a podcast full of stories about faith and courage from everyday people. And today I'm chatting with Mark Buchanan about his Christian journey, challenges he's faced in life, and some of the lessons he's learned along the way. But before we get into it, uh, let me give a shout out to a few past episodes that I think you should check out.

    Uh, why not check out episode 12 of What's the story with, uh, Mark Mitchell. Uh, where we talked about putting family before work, mark is such a great guy, such a legend. So do check out the episode and also check out one of our recent episodes, episode 20, finding Meaning in Your Life with Jared Mitchell. He's another great friend, uh, of mine.

    You're definitely gonna want to check his out as well. You can find these and our entire archive of episodes and live streams, uh, on our website for free, www.crowd.church. And whilst you're there, make sure you sign up for the newsletter and each week we will email you the links and the notes and the transcript notes, uh, from our podcast conversations.

    They come straight to your inbox, totally for free. Now this episode is brought to you by Crowd Online Church. Mark, you know, as well as I do not, not everybody wants to go to church and not everybody can even get into a church building. And this is where Online Church works super well as it is a safe space to explore the Christian faith.

    And the thing that I love about Crowd, Is that you get to join in and shape the conversation as they don't just talk at you. So if you've never been to church before or you are looking for a new church, do check out Crowd Church. The website is again, www.crowd.church or if you've got any questions, you can email me directly at matt@crowd.church and I will try my level best to answer them.

    So let's talk about Mark. Mark Buchanan, who is an inspiring legend. Yes, he is. He's been a Christian since he was just three years old. He's done it all from Bible college to preaching on the streets, planting a church, leading worship. He's preached to over 20,000 people, organized worldwide conferences and even smuggled Bibles.

    Oh yes. Now currently he is working on a Christian response to poverty in the world of fair trade. Mark, great to have you on the show, man. How are we doing?

    Mark: Yeah, I'm doing really well. Thank you. And thanks for having me.

    Matt: Oh no, it's great to have you here. Really, really great. So we read there in the bio, right, that you've been a Christian since you were three years old.

    Do you remember that day?

    Mark: Very, very clearly. Yeah. and it's, uh, yeah, it sounds weird even when I say it, but I, uh, I was just a bit over three. Mom and dad were downstairs playing music on their the old record player. And I, and all I can say is this must have been a spiritual transaction cuz there's just no way my three-year-old brain could have processed this.

    But I went downstairs and I said to my mom and dad, what do I do about my naughty things? And they kind of were a bit bewildered. What do you mean? They said, well, you know, how does God feel about my naughty things? Uh, now I have to say, mom, uh, dad was the pastor of a church in Liverpool City Mission Church.

    So I grew up in a Christian home, so it's not like I'd never heard about God or Jesus or any of those things, but I was really troubled that I knew somehow God was not happy with my naughty behavior. Mm-hmm. Um, modeled after the fact that my parents were occasionally not happy with it, either. So, you know, naughty behavior is not a good thing.

    I did know that. But again, my parents were brilliant with me and they just explained, you know, very, very simply that there was a man called Jesus, and if you asked him, he would take away your naughty things and help you not do that. So I gave my life to the Lord, uh, at that point. Um, wow. And yeah, I've never really looked back since then.

    Mm-hmm. Um, I think like a lot of people, you know, Just immediate pre-teens. I sort of became a Christian a couple more times because, you know, you'd go to church and you'd hear somebody say something and I wanted to respond somehow, but, but I've known ever since then that, you know, my life's not mine, it's his, um, and I think if he hadn't got me then being a fairly strong-willed person, maybe he wouldn't have got me.

    And I think that's the, the grace of God sort of hounding us to make sure we don't spend a big chunk of our lives, you know, totally wasting it. So it's the grace of God for sure.

    Matt: Wow. Well that sounds quite epic. So how were you, did you ever talk to your mum and Dad about this later in years? What did they think when, when it all happened?

    Mark: Yeah. They, they were really shocked by it at the time. Um, but just had a sense that God was up to something. Um, so. Yeah, I think they played it very sensitively. Um, you know, on later in life we talked about it and the need to, you know, walk out our salvation and that repentance is a deliberate change of behavior.

    So we came back to it and sort of deepened the understanding of what had happened over a period of time. Um, but then interestingly, my sister, not long after, also very similar experience. So I think God was definitely at work in, in that house.

    Matt: Yeah. That sounds amazing. That sounds amazing. So you, what was it like growing up as a, as a, as as we like to call him a pk.

    A pastor's kid?

    Mark: Yeah. Pastor's kid, yeah. Inside the house. Fantastic. Outside the house. Absolute nightmare. Um, , so it, Liverpool was a very, very sectarian city in those days. You know, it's changed remarkably since then. It's still got its problems obviously, but, but then it was a very violent, very heavy place.

    Um, so at school I was beaten up pretty much every day for six straight years to the point where we had a boys playground and a girls' playground at Rathbone County Primary. Um, and they would let me out a couple of minutes early through the girls' exit because that faced across the road to the entries entryways that ran behind the back of the houses.

    And I would have to make my way home. It wasn't that big a journey, but pretty much by running through the back entries and then just run across the road, back into the entry, the other side. Right? Cause if I didn't, I'd get beat up on the, on the way out. So, so it was a very, very costly decision, you know, and I've always been outspoken even when I was young and I stuck to my guns and I would speak up, which possibly didn't make life easier.

    But yeah, I paid quite a high price for that, uh, that decision. But in a funny sort of way, It just made me more determined and I, and I knew then it was real because of the reaction to it I was getting. Um, but home was a incredibly safe space and you know, the Lord was present in our house and I think that made it safe and that's how I got through it, I think.

    Matt: So you were bullied then because of your Christian faith?

    Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was, uh, and, and particularly it was because my dad was the pastor at, at the end of the street. And for whatever reason, that's always what was being said as I was being, you know, kicked or punched or had lighted fireworks, stuck down, my socks got thrown out of a window a couple of times.

    And, um, there was something really, um, yeah, anti-Christian there. Um, and then on top of that, at that time there was massive, uh, tension between Catholics and Protestants and, um, so yeah, it was a strange time. This is the sort of, Mid sixties, you're talking. So a long time ago. Um, but yeah, it was not a fun time.

    Matt: No kidding. Have you met the, the, the kids that bullied you? Have you met them since?

    Mark: Funnily enough, I've met not the ones who bullied me. Um, and, and interestingly, two of the main ringleaders are already dead, so they died quite early. Wow. Nothing related to me. Uh, they, they were pretty violent and ended up getting in over their heads.

    But I am in touch on Facebook with a few people who were my sort of contemporaries there. Um, some of whom were, you know, quite friendly towards me. And there was a couple who weren't at the time but are now. So, um, so yeah. It's funny how things change, isn't it, over time. Mm-hmm.

    Matt: Yeah, it is. Cause I, I mean, listening to you talk, I was bullied when I was at school.

    Um, not because I was a Christian, cause I wasn't at that particular point in time, I was bullied cause I was a ginger head kid with national health classes. That was pretty, you know, pretty lame and pretty weak. And so, um, . Yeah. I got, I got bullied in the, in the playground and it, and I, I look back at it now and you know that there's those events that sort of shape you aren't there.

    And that was, that was definitely one of them. Um, because my mum said to me, uh, I've had enough of this. I've had enough of coming into school. You're gonna learn how to stand on your own two feet. You're gonna learn to stand up for yourself and fight. She'd ship me off to judo lessons and karate lessons and all kinds of stuff.

    And, um, it's just fascinating how that changed my perception of who I was and even at such a young age, you know, and that sort of confidence that came from that. Um, but it is in, I still remember getting bullied and I still remember who bullied me, but I've never, I've never seen them since I wouldn't even know where they are, which is quite interesting.

    Interesting. Yeah. And I wonder actually if they would even remember doing it.

    Mark: Yeah, probably not. I, I guess, you know, I think in a way it's deliberate if people are punching you and kicking you, that that's not happening by accident. But you just think the mindset that that was coming out of was probably very, very deep seated and not necessarily consciously processed at the time.

    And, and I'm sure most of those people are absolutely lovely people, and they'll be moms and dads, or dads in particular in, in my case, and I'm sure that will have mellowed, um, a lot of their thinking. Mm-hmm. . Um, but what was interesting to me was my, my dad had loads of these pithy little sayings, but one of them was, nothing on Earth makes sense without a heavenly perspective.

    So early on I learned to sort of read and process what was happening to me and what was happening around me in a different context. So if you only see it in an earthly context, that's just overwhelming, whereas. They helped me see that and say, but there is an earthly purpose in, sorry, a heavenly purpose in everything that happens to us on earth if we learn to see the heavenly perspective.

    So how, you know, in modern parlance now, it's how we frame what happens to us. Psychologists would say, yeah, but framing what was happening as if it had an eternal significance. That was a really important lesson. And then one that I came to see for myself was that absolutely everything under God is redeemable.

    So either you become identified in your own mind as I'm the victim that everybody hates, and you know, this is just my lot in life. Or you learn, no, that's not who I am. This is for a reason that this is happening to me, and that God can redeem even the worst of our circumstances, and certainly now later in life.

    given the sort of job that I've been doing and a lot of things that have gone on in my life, that resilience that comes of recognizing, you know, life is not simple and life is not always that much fun, but purpose makes sense of everything. And the under God's hands, even the worst things that have happened to us, become tools in his hands and shape us for the calling that he's clearly had all along.

    And yeah, so I don't believe he caused it to happen to me, but he's very opportunistic, isn't he? And say, okay, we can turn this into something good.

    Matt: Yeah, we can redeem this. That's, that's, that's quite interesting. But how did, cause I'm interested, right, I'm, I know how shaped me Mark when I was, when I was younger, and I, I can see how it shaped my life.

    Yeah. And I think if people, I mean, if people ask me now and they, you know, I look back, I, I can say yes, it's shaped me, but I don't think it bothers me now. Maybe it does, I don't know. You know, maybe some psychologists will tell me that I'm, I'm completely wrong. Um, but at, you see, at the time I wasn't a Christian, so I didn't have to reconcile my faith in a loving God with this going on to a kid in, in a way that I didn't understand.

    So yeah, I guess my question to you is two-fold. Did the bullying shape you and how did you at the time then reconcile these two things?

    Mark: So it is definitely shaped me. It must have done. Um, I don't feel bitter about it. I don't feel like I'm carrying residual anger. I've got no desire to go and find those people and tell 'em what I think.

    Um, but it was part of my formative years and it definitely has formed me. Um, so I think whether this is a good thing or not, I don't know. It probably depends who you talk to. But most of us are driven by the desire to be liked. I've never really had that because I grew up assuming everybody didn't like me and there was no possibility of being liked.

    So I stopped expecting it. Mm-hmm. . And I can see in some ways that's probably not a good thing. Um, but in other ways, given that I've spent a lot of time, you know, standing on telephone boxes, preaching the gospel or smuggling Bibles in places where you're not supposed to do that, I wasn't perhaps as impacted by that as other people would be because people's good opinion of me has never been particularly important, uh, or even expected.

    So I can see areas where it's a definite positive to have come through that, to have through it positively. And I have to say home life was brilliant. I had a fantastic childhood. Um, despite that, yeah, if home life had been difficult and I was being bullied, I could see that that could have really warped me or twisted me in some pretty unpleasant ways.

    Um, but God had a channel into my circumstances because of my parents. Um, and then I don't think I ever really questioned, to be quite honest. Uh, why would God let that happen? You know, I grew up with a mum who was, you know, very badly affected by MS. So a lot of the time you'd think, well, who, you know, why would I winge?

    You know, look at what my mom is going through. Yeah. Why would I complain about my minor difficulties? Um, but I suppose also that's the, sort of theological framework I was raised in is that God never promised us an easy life down here. What we're really playing for is eternity. and that's what matters and quite often.

    There's a strong connection between it being difficult down here, but then the knowledge of God that comes through that, and therefore our expectations of what heaven will be like and our relationship with God. And dare we say, even the rewards for faithfulness often are earned at the cost of some sufferings.

    So yeah, whether that may it's, I'm just shallow, or whether I've just been at peace with it, I think I've just been at peace with it to say, well, life is tough, but it's all about it really. Um, and you can go too far with that, obviously, you know, it's like we're supposed to be here for a reason. You can't just wish away your life and go straight to heaven.

    Um, but yeah, the earthly perspectives never give you the right answer.

    Matt: Mm-hmm. , that's so powerful. So powerful. So tell me about, I mean, you mentioned the telephone boxes and the Bible smuggling. Tell me, I'm really fascinated about the Bible smuggling ever since I read. Um, oh, what's the God smuggler?

    Mark: smuggler. Brother Andrew.

    Matt: Brother Andrew. That's the guy. Um, ever since I read that, I've just been intrigued. And so here you are, a real life sort of brother andrew. Tell me about bible smuggling.

    Mark: So I was sort of conned into it if the, if the truth be told, it wasn't like I am now going to become a Bible smuggler. So there was a bible teaching ministry called Derek Prince Ministries. Derek Prince was a Brit very,

    Matt: uh, amazing Bible teacher.

    Mark: Yeah, incredible teacher. Uh, and a very, very unusual man. Very radical man. Yeah, massive influence on me. So, we were friends with some people who ran the sort of China side of Derek Prince's ministry.

    So he had offices in quite a lot of parts of the world. And because they knew of me through my parents, the office got into difficulties in the UK and a lot of the key staff left. So they asked me if I would step in just for a while and stabilize it whilst they found a replacement for the, the director who'd left.

    So I said I could give them three months. I was in the process of setting up a business, so I said, look, I can put that on hold and I'll come and do this for you. Um, and then three months became six months. And then they said, look, actually we think probably you are the person, so why don't you just take the job, which I said yes to.

    And then about a year later they said, oh, by the way, whoever runs the UK office also runs the Middle-East offices operations. I said, okay, that's great. And where are the offices? Well, there's only a couple because most of what goes on isn't strictly legal. Um, and it's like, oh, okay. But I'd already said yes at, at that point.

    Um, so Derek at that point was based out in Jerusalem, in Israel, so he started off going in and out of Israel. Um, and then I was introduced to somebody who's become a lifelong friend and an incredible educator on Middle East politics. Uh, he's an American, I can't name him cuz he's still active. Um, fluent in Hebrew, fluent in Arabic, fluent in both cultures.

    And definitely that was a provision of God and he absolutely opened my eyes to so much about the Middle East and the big concept, you can't understand Israel without understanding the Arab world, and nor can you relate rightly to the Arab world without understanding the Jewish people and where they've come from.

    And so it's the, the two eyed vision it's called. Um, and then as an extension of that, the motivation was everybody should have a choice. So here, if you want to be Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Bahai, Muslim, you can just be it. And it's a remarkable freedom that we take for granted. That's not the case in the Middle East.

    So I just felt it wasn't just that people were not allowed access to the Bible. Um, so we had, uh, at, at its height I was running covert networks in every single Middle East country. Um, And in some of those I knew I had more coverage than even the CIA did because everybody knew who the CIA were. It's so funny.

    You go to certain places, the CIA. Yeah, they're that house on the corner, you know? So it was, uh, um, so it was terrifying. But again, it's, it's that I was looking for reality, you know, I don't want God theoretically. Um, so I'll tell you one story. Um, I'll have to change a couple of names, but we were on a trip through Kurdistan from Turkey all the way across to the Iranian border, and a man who was with us, um, Had been of some months previously and had bumped into a Jewish woman, um, in a city called, Sulaymaniyah.

    She'd married a Muslim man in the 1950s, gone to the, uh, Baghdad where he had work, and then he died and she moved back. But by then, all of the Iraqi Jews had been airlifted to Israel. So this guy who was with us, we'll call him Fred, it's not his name, had agreed to meet her in the first week of May in the market square in Sulaymaniyah, but for various reasons, we ended up there in April.

    So then we were gonna have to go on this mission to try and see if we could find her, because we were early. So you had to have peshmergas with you, which are the sort of, uh, Kurdish freedom fighters who'd been fighting against Saddam. You weren't allowed out without a couple of peshmergas with you.

    You also had to carry a Kalashnikov when you're in convoy, otherwise they wouldn't let you on the convoy. So it's a, a real head screw if we can say that in that, you know, you're there to know the news of peace, but you have to be armed if you want to get any transport. Yeah, we've got our peshmergas with us and we decided, well, we better go and try and find this woman.

    Of course, a lot of life takes place in the late evenings, well into the night. So it was dark by the time we left this, the house that we were staying in. And as we stepped out of the house, a voice out of the shadow said, is that you, Mr. Fred? And as soon as they hear this, our peshmergas jump on us, throw us on the floor, and lie on top of us thinking we're about to get ambushed.

    And finally it turns out, you know, becomes clear there's no violence going on. This man steps out of the shadows said, I'm the son of the woman you're supposed to be meeting. And the Lord woke her in a dream and told her that you are coming early and I was asked to stand here and wait for some westerners to come out of that blue door.

    And they're the people that we need to meet with. So we meet with, this guy, the mother, we meet the mother. And in the meantime, it turns out that her sister lived three doors down from Fred, where he lived in Israel. So it was just such a remarkable story. Um, so that was the kind of reality you had to live in doing that sort of work.

    Um, you know, we got separated from a convoy on the same trip and had to hide from Saddam's kill squad. They looked through the window of the house where we were, looked up, left, right, and forwards, and did not look down, which is the only natural place to look where we were hiding underneath the windowsill.

    So I just saw God's incredible provision to the point where it was absolutely terrifying but incredibly exhilarating cuz you just think, yeah, it was life or death and it turned out to be life. So it was very, very rewarding. Um, and then meeting people who were really putting a lot on the line.

    You know, for me, if I'd gone to prison, I would've definitely been beaten and tortured, but I probably would've eventually been released. Yeah. Most of the people we were with, you just never ever see them again if they were taken. So to see ordinary people doing extraordinary things under the power of of the Lord was some of the most meaningful months of my life, to be quite honest.

    Matt: Yeah, that's incredible. That's incredible. So how long were you with the Derek Prince Ministries then?

    Mark: Just under 13 years in the end. Um, . So, uh, yeah. And again, to, it's a privilege. He was, uh, it's very hard to quantify him. In many ways he had many of the same gifts that CS Lewis has. He was a phenomenal intellect.

    And then God took him, uh, during the war, he was a conscientious objector, much to the horror of his entire family, all of whom have been high ranking military officers. Uh, but he got saved during his training and then was sent out, was at El Alamain, um, and then ended up in Libya, I think it was, um, and got ill and spent almost two years in a sick hospital.

    But just reading and reading and reading his Bible. And then heard about a Danish Lutheran missionary called Ms. Christensen, who was in Ramala in Palestine. And she could confer the gift of speaking in tongues. And he was intrigued by this. So went to her meetings and then felt the Lord saying that he should marry her.

    And she was decades older than him. and she said, well, the Lord has not shown me, but come back next week. I'll pray about it. And let's see. And when he came back, she said, yes, I think the Lord is saying that. So he, yeah. Marries her. She'd adopted six orphan girls. So Derek became an adoptive father, but she was really, really tuned into the things of the Holy Spirit.

    And she in many ways built him. She saw what he really was. She had God's eyes on him, and she really gave him the courage and the support. Uh, and his ministry just flourished. And then they went to the States and there was full gospel businessman's fellowship International. Was it like a, you'd invite your business colleagues and there'd be a speaker and then you'd chat afterwards?

    That was huge in the States. Um, and that's when he became famous, but again, he got this from Churchill, but if you can't explain something simply it's because you haven't understood it properly yet. Yeah. He spent hours trying to find the simplest way to express a theological concept or the connection between two biblical ideas.

    And that's what made his teaching so powerful and so easily distributable and easily translatable because he never went in for fancy language or complicated stories. It was simplicity, simplicity, simplicity. So to be in that atmosphere for 13 years was an incredible, uh, privilege. Amazing. Um, yeah, he's shaped me a lot.

    Matt: Yeah. I bet he did. Geez. That's, um, that's because I, you know, there are a few people that, um, I think have sort of shaped me in, in many ways. And Derek Prince would be one of them cuz we just, I mean, it was, it was all tapes back then. Uh, what wasn't it? Yeah, we just, my, I remember my wife and I, early in our marriage, we'd sit around the dining room table and we listened to his tapes on Hebrews and we listened to his tapes on Romans.

    And here was a man that did not have what you would traditionally call, um, I said traditionally, it's not what most Gen Xs would expect a, a leader to have. He's, he, he wasn't like, I mean, he was charismatic, but he wasn't, do you know what I mean, and he was very monotone in his voice, but you just got sucked into his teaching.

    And if you're listening and you've not heard his teaching on the book of Romans or the book Hebrews honestly get the, the, because I think it's all online now. Whatever it is, it cost to buy. I would buy it because that, that was just sensational stuff, right. And um, it really was.. Yeah. His, his books, you know, a blessing and curse was just, I think that transformed our marriage as well.

    Um, and then he, he did a book, I can't remember what it was called, but it was based the sort of six foundations of Christian Living or something like that, where he took a scripture. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can I look back and I go, he definitely formed me in a lot of ways. Yeah. You know, really got into his teaching.

    Um, yeah. And,

    Mark: and, and nowadays everybody needs to be showy and whatever, and yeah. It's, it's a bit naughty in a way, but I was on the International Council that ran the whole worldwide organization for nine or 10 of the years that I was there. And we were spending thousands videotaping Derek. And this is like beta cam, s p, huge cameras and big setup because we wanted to capture all the teaching that we could and make it available.

    And we are one of the international council meetings, and I was being a little bit facetious, but I said, look, we've just spent, I can't remember what we'd spent, but let's say 3000 pounds. That's a long time ago um, capturing him at a conference. And I said, the thing is he never moves. So instead of spending all this money on video, let's just record the audio and then let's have photographs of Derek made in every standard television size and we'll sell cassettes or uh, dat tape was just starting to come in, four pieces of blue tack and a photo of Derek.

    So you blue tack the photo of Derek on your tele. Listen to the tape. And it's exactly the same as watching the video. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, there was no, there was no Derek Prince getting in the way. It was the word. The Holy Spirit speaking through Rick and none of him in the way, or very little of him in the way.

    And I think that's why he was so powerful that yeah, there was no human showing off going on. Um, and I think God honored that. And again, I love doing keynote presentations. I almost never preach without some kind of visual aids behind me, but Derek would say, but why would you do that? And say, we just need the word, that's all.

    And if the word's not gonna do it, your, you know, pathetic little presentation isn't really gonna make the differences. You just think, well, he's got a point.

    Matt: Yeah. The Apostle Paul never had, um, keynote did he? Uh, but it, it is, it is fascinating and the fact that you got sit under that, I'm very envious in a lot of ways cuz I would love to have sat under Derek Prince for a number of years.

    Um, yeah. So that was life transforming then. So yeah, here you are, you're working for, you know, Derek Prince Ministries, um, which is dynamic ministry. Um, , you are smuggling bibles, you're, you know, all these crazy things are happening. You're getting jumped on by guys with guns to try and protect you from a guy in a doorway waiting for the Westerners to come out of the, the room, which is an amazing story.

    How was life for you in all of this? Was it, was it all sunshine and rainbows? Was it all, um, I'm, I'm on top of the world kind of thing, or was it different?

    Mark: It wasn't, uh, yeah, I mean, a lot of it was tremendous, you know, and it's, I've been gone 14 years, so I've been out of Derek Prince ministries as long as I was in, and you can tell you in my voice just to talk about it, it, it was such a good thing.

    Mm-hmm.

    But it actually broke my marriage too, or I broke my marriage. Um, so the stress of what I was doing, I didn't realize this and I wasn't intelligent enough to spot what was happening.. But I would say, and I, I've talked to a lot of people who've said similar things, sometimes the biggest threat to your relationship with God is how busy you are working for him.

    Mm-hmm. , and it sounds crazy. Um, but it was a very high stress lifestyle. Certainly the smuggling parts of it were, um, and it's a very disjointed life. Um, and for most of the time, I was single while I was doing that, but I, I'd married towards the end of my time there. And it got to the point where unless it was life or death, I couldn't really register it.

    Uh, didn't just get on my radar. So, you know, humdrum things, I, I've always hated small talk. I've never been good at that, but it got the, unless it was really, really high stakes, I just couldn't handle it or couldn't find any interest in it. But of course a marriage or any relationship, you end up talking an awful lot about nothing.

    Mm-hmm. . Uh, but that's how we build relationships, isn't it? And. and I could, I could feel that I was becoming a less and less pleasant version of myself. And it, it, it was cumulative stress or acute adrenaline poisoning. Somebody called it, um, you know, and you like, it's the adrenaline junkies who, you know, have to do one more thing and then, you know, the parachute doesn't open or, or whatever.

    Mm-hmm. . So it, in many ways it formed me, it built my spiritual foundations and it certainly built another layer of bricks on top of what my own father had imparted to all of us, my brother, my sister, and me. But at the same time, there was a corrosive element to it. And it's not Derek Prince Ministry's fault, you know, it was, I wasn't learning how to balance the extreme tension of being overseas and doing what I was doing with the need to actually have an ordinary life.

    Um, so it was a very difficult time, you know? And out of that, I left as a divorced man with two very, very, very small children who now lived 500 miles away in a completely different country. So, um, oh, you know, God is good. God's grace is always there, but you have to live with the consequences of your actions.

    So, you know, forgiveness, I know the eternal consequences of what I did are forgiven and non-existent. The earthly consequences are in the hands of people and they nearly always last for a very long time, which, which they have. Um, so then it was about finding God in a much less traditional way, a much less showy way, a much less respectable way in effect, you know, and it, a friend of mine's the same Fred that we've been talking about.

    He said to me, uh, you just need to know one thing. Mark said, the church is the only army in the world that shoots its own wounded. Yeah, it does. And that was definitely my experience. Um, . And again, it's imperfect people all around. So I, I'm not bitter about it, but I think Christians like to see other Christians suffer cuz it makes them feel better about themselves.

    So it wasn't even like you had crowds of people urging you on, it felt like a very lonely, um, lonely route, you know? So I lost my job, my house, uh, my church, I was leading worship. My ministry had to put down and it was right to put those things down cuz I'd sinned. Um, which is why the marriage, so again, no complaint about that at all.

    Um, I wish people had had the courage to try and redeem me rather than just, you know, dump me. Yeah. But I did it so I have to take the consequences. But in, but I found, and this is the interesting thing, I found the same Lord in a totally different way and, it, was just earth shattering. It's like the consequences were so profound and so instantaneous.

    It was really destabilizing. Um, and I was, I would, took to driving. I'd just get in the car and drive, and sometimes I'd end up hundreds of miles away without even realizing how I got there, but I've just so distraught. And I was out in the car about two o'clock in the morning shouting, you know, inside the car and, Hey, Lord, you better, well swear word.

    Be real, because if you are not, I'm making decisions based on you being real. And I would make the opposite decisions if it was up to me. Um, yeah. And I'm not saying it was an audible voice, but it was pretty close to one. And he said, but if I wasn't real, you wouldn't be this angry, would you?

    Matt: Sorry. That's just a brilliant answer.

    Mark: It was, it, it really stopped me. I thought, you know what? Stop winging. Um, So I had two daughters. One was about two and a half, one was not even one and a half, and I knew I was gonna lose them unless I made them my absolute number one priority. Um, so I thought, okay, that needs to be the focus of life.

    Um, I ended up getting a job because the pastor of the church that I was in worked for Franklin Covey, an American training, uh, and consulting company. He said, I'm about to resign, so I know there's a job going. Um, so I applied and got a completely different job with them, but it paid an awful lot of money, but you didn't get employed every single day.

    So I needed blocks of time to spend with my girls. Um, and I thought, okay, I've got to learn how to be a single dad at 500 miles distance when they're tiny. Um, but it was interesting, and I'll try not to get emotional about this, but. I had no clue what to do. And it was terrifying cuz I thought being a father is really important to me.

    And I thought, I've already blown it away. But if there's a way to hold them, I need to, um mm-hmm. . So I set off, say the longest I would ever let them go without us spending time was three weeks, which at that age is the long time, but the longest we'd ever go without talking would be two days. So even though I was flying all around the world, I'd get up at four in the morning if I was in China or somewhere, you know, and they're so small, you know, you might talk for two minutes and they'd just put the phone down and wander off.

    But they were hearing my voice constantly and I just felt like I'd have ideas about how to do this, except I knew I wasn't having the ideas. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. the tenderness of God and the mercy of God, which people weren't really showing. Somewhere, I had a few close friends who were fantastic.

    One particular friend Eric Camp. He said, mate, you've lost the short game. This is all about the long game. Yeah. Uh, now, so focus on the long game, but I just felt like the Lord aided and abetted me. Um, and I repented as widely and as comprehensively as I could. I stood up in front of the entire church whose offices were in the building that I bought for Derek Prince Ministries.

    I was a worship leader. I was one of the main preachers and I had to stand up and tell them what I'd done. Mm-hmm. Uh, not all story details, but we were meeting in a school and I was sat at the back with a very angry wife and we had an aisle that went from front to back. There was, let's say a meter wide.

    It might have not even been that wide. So going down to the front was no problem cuz I, people were used to me being at the front and I stood and I said, look, this is, this is what I've done. Um, And that's why it's right that I am stepping down and, and and, but then it's the walk of shame all the way to the back of the uh, yeah.

    Geez. Yeah. And I knew that that was gonna be the difficult point, but I just thought I have to do this cuz if I'm right with God, I actually don't care what anybody else thinks as long as he will be with me. And as I walked up to the back of the church, people just kept leaning out and touching me and saying, thank you for that.

    We're with you mate. It, it was just absolutely devastating in a good way. It just broke me. Um, and I just felt that was the Lord saying, that's how I think and that's all that matters. Um, so you know, sin is sin and you can't hide from it. And you can't pretend it isn't sin. It is what it is. And you just gotta take it and say, I have sinned, Lord, forgive me.

    How do I put this right to the extent that I can with everybody who's been touched by this? And I think that freed me and the Lord up because we didn't have anything in the way and the devil couldn't condemn me cuz it was wide out, out in the open anyway, so for years, since then, it's just like, I'd keep having these, oh, I know what we can do, or here's how we can make use of the phone.

    So we'd end up doing these stupid games, like they'd be eating something. I have to guess what they're eating by the noise it makes on the phone or on holidays and when I have to guess are they walking on the sand or the stones or the grass? Um, and we just squeezed everything out of a telephone conversation

    that you could. And then Apple brought out iChat, which was this revolutionary two-way video communication. So then we'd do puppet shows and we'd read books and we'd sing. Um, but I just knew I, this isn't me, I don't know how to do, you know, but I knew that God was deliberately investing cuz he's a father and he's got this soft spot for fathers.

    Um, So, although it was my fault and I should have managed the stress and the pressure better, God just switched modes with me and said, okay, well if this is what we're doing, here's how I would advise you approach this. Um, and I have a absolutely phenomenal relationship with my two girls, and I've now Rema, I've got three stepdaughters, I've got five girls who are absolutely fantastic, all of them.

    Um, but God's redemptive determination is just unbelievable.

    Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's an incredible story. Um, Mark, an incredible story. So your, you've now got five daughters, um, and your two daughters that were living, uh, in Holland, 500 miles away. Um, you're getting on well with now. Whereabouts in the world are they?

    Mark: So they're still both in, uh, in Holland, but in a different place. They do university and, well, one's in, university, one's getting ready. So they're Dutch. My wife is Spanish, so we have a Anglo Spanish Dutch commune going on here. So it's uh, hang on. But again,

    Matt: work, work that out. Let me just draw a map. Hang on.

    Mark: Yeah. So, but again, God lavishes on us, doesn't he? You know, and I think my, my view is we run away from sin and back to Derek. You know, we allow Satan in, but when nobody talks about Satan or deliverance these days, or not many people, but I think we need to see the world for what it is. And we need to see sin for what it is, but not be scared of it, because God's in the forgiving business.

    Mm. And I feel I kept putting one foot in front of the other, I did the plodding and the, you know, my favorite Churchill quote is just never, ever give up. Yeah. Um, . And I remember the second time I went to Holland, I really messed it up. I lost my temper. I was full of stress and tension and they were playing up in the car and I shouted at them.

    I was like, that's it. I'm a terrible father. It's all over. And I was on the ferry on the way back to Harwich, just feeling desolate. And again, it was the Lord dropped it in my mind, you know, it isn't my best day that matters with the girls. And it's not my worst day that counts. It's the average of all the days that we spend.

    Yeah. And if you just keep going, you'll, the good days will outweigh the bad days. The the things where it works will outweigh the things where it doesn't work. And if you just keep going, you're gonna have to learn how to change nappies and how to entertain a two year old and how to get the right feed for them.

    And they're all solvable problems. If you don't give up, God will take you somewhere amazing that you'll never believe is possible. And if people have told me then, Where I'd end up, I would've just laughed in their face cuz it was just ridiculous. Um, but on my youngest daughter's 12th birthday, we, every second year we do some mega trips.

    So we flew to Orlando and then Zig-zagged all the way up to New York and back again. And then went to, hell, sorry, Disney, um, we happened to be in New York, um, on my youngest daughter's 12th birthday. And she said, you have the Empire State Building. You got this valve that you could go up. And then you were allowed to go back for a second time after 10 o'clock at night.

    Cause it's open till like two in the morning. So we went up for the second time and we are looking out over the, the skyline of New York. And with my two daughters, we're having an absolute ball and I just started crying like a baby. Wow. And you know, they're a little bit shocked. There's loads of people up there.

    So I'm like trying to hang over the balcony. You know, the thing, make it look like I'm. You know, just being moved by the view. But I just thought, we've made it, we've done it, you know, we've got a relationship and we have got a life and we are enjoying one another's company and this can never be taken away from us.

    And again, it was just like, I never ever thought it could end up this good from such a bad start. Yeah. Um, but that, that's God, isn't it? He's just so merciful, so kind, so inventive and so relentless. You know? He just doesn't give up. As long as we keep moving, he'll keep steering. And I think it, it's probably the most formative revelation I've ever had about anything in my Christian walk.

    Yeah. And it came from the worst thing I've ever done. And you think people think, well then, you know, of course God will have to punish you. And I think, no, he doesn't punish his own. He will chastise and discipline, but mostly he's in the redemption business. Yeah. Because he wants us fit and back on the front line, not you know, lying in some unmarked grave somewhere because we stepped outta line. And that's not making light of sin, it isn't a light thing, but when it's dealt with, it doesn't exist anymore. But I think we struggle to accept that.

    Matt: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I I, I am a big fan that actually if something's in in darkness, well it's never good.

    But as soon as you bring something from darkness to light, well then it's in God's territory then, isn't it? And redemption can shine. Yeah. And I think quite often, um, my issues and are not really that I believe that God has forgiven me, but it's more how I, it's more have I, how do I work that out? It's more, I've still gotta deal with the guilt here.

    And I know that God has forgiven me, you mean? But I, I've, there's this sort of internal emotional struggle going on. . And so I think I've become the bigger problem. Really? Yeah. Um, which then of course you, you know, without hyper spiritualizing, it gives the devil the foothold still, doesn't it really?

    Exactly. Despite the having been forgiven. So it's a, it is an interesting one. Um, it is an, and it, I I think it takes years to figure it out. , Do, you know what I mean of walking with God? You try and understand that, you know.

    Mark: Yeah. Interestingly, a guy in our church, when I was down in Chester, a guy called Dave Mitchell stood up and he said, I'm gonna share my testimony.

    And he shared a testimony and there was no ending to it. And it was just like, this isn't going well. This is pretty awful, really struggling with this. And he said, and you're all waiting for the upswing, you know, so, and you're gonna clap at the end, said, there isn't an upswing, but I want to give my testimony now.

    And then when God has brought the upswing and, and, and then we can all have a, a clap and a cheer and a worship about it. And he said, but the problem is we only talk about the successful mm-hmm outcomes. We only talk about the success stories, he said, but most of us are at some point in this soon-to-be testimony where it's all still pretty bleak, you know, and quite dark.

    But we don't talk about that. So then everybody thinks, well, I'm only valid when I've got a gosh, wow story. Or it's, yeah, it's God's grace when it's all neatly parceled up. But some of the things we're involved in, it could be years before it's all done and dusted, but the value is happening now. You know?

    Yeah. I thought that was quite a strong thing to say, you know, that we need to talk openly about it. Not to say, you know, you can be whoever you want and God will be fine with it. That's not true. But God does love us. Yeah. But he's also gonna say, now listen, I'd quite like to talk about a few things, and why don't we do this instead?

    And repentance will rid you of the burden. And, and, and so I think. We need to be better at talking about this stuff and a bit less precious about our reputations, which probably aren't that much anyway. So ,

    Matt: that's probably is very, very wise council, uh, very wise council. No, I think, I think it's fascinating. I'm kind of curious then, uh, as, as we bring this into land, um, which is a very good preacher's quote, isn't it, as we bring this into land, uh, a good metaphor to use, um, if you had just one message to speak, um, you get one chance to preach one message, um, that's recorded with Beta Max cameras at three grand a pop, um, , what would the, what would the message be?

    What's been the overarching lesson that you've learned from God?

    Mark: Wow. In one message. I suppose I could have three points though, couldn't I? As long as they, uh,

    Matt: as long as they alliterate, you're fine. .

    Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Uh, well, I'd like to, uh, talk about perseverance, persistence, and determination.

    So I, I think it, it's about two. It's our part and God's part. God can redeem anything and anybody. Absolutely anything and anybody he can redeem. Our job is to plod and not give up, and that gives him something to steer. So I'd say, let's call sin a sin. Let's not pretend it's something else. It's not a mistake.

    It's not the way you were made. It's not who you are. It's sin. So get that in the open and sorted. God will redeem that. And that's a collaborative process where our main contribution is to stay in the game long enough for him to get the outcome from it that he can. Um, yeah. So never give up because it's not over. Um, and however bad it is, it won't always be this bad.

    Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's very true. Um, God, it takes a lot to defeat God, I think. Um, . Yeah. You know, he still sits on this throne, doesn't he? So, uh, that's fascinating so far. Now, fast forward, um, all these years, uh, Mark, you now are heading up. We are Fair trade. Um, yes.

    Which is the successor of Tradecraft, which many people inside church circles will know. Um, It's a response to a Christian response to poverty. It was a pioneering fair, fair trade organization. I worked for it for a little while. You've worked for it for a little while. And so here you are, sort of, um, modern day Mark, for want of better expression, um, five daughters.

    And you're just about to start on this adventure of a, of a store called, uh, We Are Fair Trade, which is gonna be an online shop carrying on the work of Tradecraft. Are you excited about the future?

    Mark: Yes. Very, very, very. Um, yeah, and it's, there is a link, so if you read scripture and you're looking for who is God, God's identity as a father is his number one thing.

    And you, you can read any book in the Bible and God is a father. Mm-hmm. . The second thing that you will see him identifying himself as is a champion of the oppressed, the orphans, the widows, the people who are being treated unjustly. Mm-hmm. . So in both cases, I'm lining myself up with God's fundamental nature, so I shouldn't be able to lose.

    Right. So , um, and I think it's, it's a privilege as well. Cause it, it's like for Christians to say we care about poverty, but not change the way they spend, that's hypocrisy. But they need to be getting the vehicle where it's easy to take the motivation they have there ethical outrage or the, the sense of injustice that I think many of us feel.

    Um, we need easy ways to put that interaction. We need to put hands and feet on those urges for justice and compassion. Um, so that's exciting to say, okay, how do we harness digital technology? And you know, as much about this as I do. Um, but you know, but technology is the Roman roads of our time, isn't it?

    It makes it so easy to get to the destination if you know how to use it. So I think the, the challenge of saying, okay, God is absolutely in favor of what we're trying to do, and there are other Christian endeavors that are also doing similar things, so I think they can claim his protection and his investment too.

    Um, but I love that idea of saying, okay, we've got God's urges. What God says he wants, an obvious need, an economic connection and technology to harness all those things together, that feels like something really worth putting a few years of my life into. Mm-hmm. .

    Matt: No, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. And so what do you, what do you see the future for We are fair trade?

    What, what, what's the sort of the next few years looking like, do you think?

    Mark: So, I think we are hoping that the groundswell of support for Tradecraft, which was incredibly good at generating insane levels of loyalty from people. Yeah. In. Fair Traders selling trade craft products at the back of their churches who signed up 40 years ago when they were mm-hmm.

    family, children. And they've stuck with it all that time. So I think we need to harness that, you know, um, that intent and that loyalty. We have to make a business that is profitable because morals take money, you know? And if we're gonna bless people in the global south, we need to make money here in the Western Europe that will enable us to do the right things for the people.

    We were producing. So we've got to be economically fit for purpose. And then I want to build an army of activists. So it, it is about using our weekly shopping spend in the cause of trade justice, but we need advocates, people who talk about it at work, who talk about it in their university halls of residence, people who mention it in their sermons on a Sunday, people who will be mentioning it on their Instagram and their Facebook pages.

    So I want to harness that motivation and give it ammunition, you know, stories about producers, stories about what's happening in legislation, easy ways for people to make a small difference. But if a million people make a small difference, that's a giant difference overall, isn't it? Yes. So I think it's that building the, the army of activists is the, is the biggest challenge, isn't it?

    How do we do that? How do we keep that together and how do we give it what it needs to survive?

    Matt: Yeah, absolutely. And like that's how far Fair Trade Craft started. Wasn't it just church people just going, yeah, we want to be a bit more ethical in how we buy, um, and selling products at the back of the church hall, which was, which was incredible really.

    And um, we called them Fair Traders, what you're now calling activists. And so, so if people wanna find out more about what you are doing with we are Fair Trade, or if they want to find out maybe more how they could get involved as a fair trader or activist, whatever the phrase is. But, um, where, where do people do that Mark?

    Mark: So they, uh, by the time this podcast goes out, you'll be able to go to wearefairtrade.com. So that's, we are Fair Trade all one word dot com. Um, or you can email helpme@wearefairtrade.com and then we'll get you on the email list and then that will tell you what your next steps can be.

    Um, , and then Yep. There'll be products to buy on there. We're carrying a similar range to what Tradecraft did. Not quite as many different skews, but, um, and then the last thing that we'll wanna do is to forge some relationships again, directly with the global South. Mm-hmm. . So, um, one or two producers where we, they become part of our family so that we really understand the challenges they're facing, not just secondhand, but we will actually experience those challenges with them.

    So, and there may be people out there who can help us with that, who already have connections. That could be suppliers who wanna get in touch and say, yeah, we've got products that you didn't used to have, but that would suit the purpose. Um, and maybe even some investors who might say, look, I, I'm looking to use my money to achieve something for the kingdom that is close to the heart of God. Then any of those cases, then drop us a line and let's just see what, uh, what we can do.

    Matt: Fantastic. Fantastic. So wearefairtrade.com or helpme@wearefairtrade.com. We will of course add those links into the show notes, which you can get on our website. Um, whatsthestorypodcast.com or, uh, they will be hopefully in the notes on whatever app you are listening to this, uh, podcast on.

    Or if you're watching on YouTube, they'll be in the description. So, well, let me ask you my final question, uh, if I may, um, my, my, uh, odd question, uh, but I think it's an interesting question. Um, imagine you're at the Christian Oscars, right? Okay. Uh, and you just won a, your, you know, you've just won their lifetime achievement award.

    Um, and you stand up and you get to thank all of those folks that have had sort of a big impact on your life. You know, like family, mentors, authors, software, podcasts, whatever it is. Who do you thank and why?

    Mark: Whoa, that's a long list. Um, , well, my first thanks will be to my wife Hadassa, who is an absolute hero.

    She's a gentle giant. She's a godly woman and she believes in me and pushes me, pushes me to go for it. Go for it. That's remarkable. Um, she has absolutely transformed my life. Um, definitely my mom and dad. Again, we don't get to choose our parents. I was so fortunate to get such godly, committed, loyal parents.

    Uh, yeah, I learned a lot about from watching my own father and my mum was really smart and suffered horribly. I mean, by the time she died, she'd had MS For over 47 years, she was a double amputee and she was gracious to the point of redefining the word, uh, to the extent that the entire staff, pretty much of the nursing home came to her funeral and they still play the message that she'd recorded over and over.

    So grace and courage under fire from her. Derek, we've already talked about, um, uh, it feels like name dropping, but I've known Graham Kendrick for 30 years. We've Prayer walked miles and Miles and Miles. But again, in terms of the Prayer life, he's been a massive influence on me. Yes. And then, uh, yeah, my girls, all five of them, they've really shaped me and they ref, you know, kids are ruthless, aren't they? They reflect back at you. Dad. That's just.. Can't be said.

    Matt: They're ruthless. Yes.

    Mark: Yeah. But they, they love me and it matters to me. Um, they have. Yeah, they've brought meaning to life, all five of them to my life. So, and then my best friend is a guy called Eric Camp. Uh, he's the guy who said, mate, you've lost the short game.

    Uh, it's about the long game. Um, but we've walked so deeply together, you know, and we talk about tools, about building, about the Lord, and I think you've gotta have people like that where you can just be what and all. And you don't process, you know, polish it. You just say, mate, this is where I'm at. But you know that you're gonna get an, a helpful response.

    And I think, yeah, uh, there's probably a hundred other people who should be on that list, but, uh, those would be my main ones.

    Matt: Fantastic, fantastic. So, um, how do people reach you, Mark, if they want to do that? If they want to get ahold of you.

    Mark: Um, in this context. Yeah. markalexanderbuchanan.com. So mark at markalexanderbuchanan.com.That's my Christian website. It's got some of my talks and stuff on there. So either go onto the website or just drop an email, um, at mark@markalexanderbuchanan.com.

    Matt: Fantastic. And again, we will link to that email, uh, on the website in the show notes. Um, Mark, listen, loved hearing your story, man, totally inspired by your smuggling activities and just loved the story of God's grace on your life when it all went a bit wrong, uh, and just loved hearing the story of redemption.

    Um, so thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing, man. Genuinely, really appreciate it and praying for some wild success for you guys. Uh, over at We Are Fair Trade. May God bless insanely and intently the amazing work you guys are doing..

    Mark: Amen to that. Thank you for that. Yeah, no, it's been fantastic. A really good conversation. Yeah, fantastic. And glory to God, I think is the main thing, isn't it?

    Matt: Well. Some would say it's the only thing, uh, but maybe that's subject for another podcast. So fantastic. There you have it. What a great conversation. Huge thanks again to Mark for joining me today. Remember to check out Crowd online church at www.crowd.church, even if you might not see the point of church.

    We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps us live a more meaningful life. We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where you can contribute and grow. And you are welcome at Crowd Church. Whether you smuggle Bibles or whether you don't. Now, be sure to subscribe to what's the story wherever you get your podcast from, because we've got some more great stories lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them.

    And in case no one's told you yet today, you are awesome. Created awesome. It's just the way God made you. Uh, and you just have to deal with that. I have to deal with it. Mark has to deal with it. It's just what it is to be fearfully and wonderfully made. What's the story is produced by Crowd Online Church.

    You can find our entire archive of episodes, uh, which also includes our church live streams on your favorite podcast app. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Estella Robin and Tanya Hutsuliak. Our theme song was written by the amazing Josh Edmundson, and if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, as I said, they will be available for free, uh, at our website, which is www.whatsthestorypodcast.com.

    Oh, yes, it is. So that's it from me. That's it from Mark. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. I'll see you next time. Bye for now.

 
 

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