07: Dealing With Cancer

What's the Story

27 Sept

Today’s Guest: Anni Uddin

Anni is originally from Germany, but she and her husband, Tony Uddin, now live in London where he pastors Tower Hamlets Community Church. Anni works for London City Mission, working with the homeless and marginalised through housing projects and night shelters.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

Cancer.
The word alone is enough to strike fear into the hearts of even the bravest individuals. And for good reason - cancer is one of the leading causes of death worldwide. But cancer is not always a death sentence. Anni Uddin is living proof of that.

As a cancer patient, Anni was in physical and emotional turmoil but spiritually she stood firm and her faith moved from strength to strength. "I came to the conclusion, whether I die or whether I live, you know, I want to live for God."
Anni's cancer went into remission, and she is now cancer-free. But the experience changed her in profound ways. "I just love the fact that I know Jesus is there on the other side of death, waiting for me. That was my comfort when I had cancer and it is my comfort now."

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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello there. My name is Matt Edmundson and welcome to What's the Story, a podcast where we hear stories about faith and courage from every day people. And today that is going to be the beautiful, the amazing, the all-around awesome person that is Anni Uddin about what it's to deal with cancer, the Big C. What's that actually like from a Christian viewpoint? Now, this episode is brought to you by Crowd Church, which is an online church. Now, you know as well as I do, not everyone can get into a church building and it might not be a place that actually everybody wants to go to for whatever reason. And this is where online church works really well. It is super accessible. It is a safe space to explore the Christian faith. It's a good place to come along and meet people from around the world. And the thing that I love about Crowd is it is online first, meaning that we talk with you, not just at you. You can join in the conversation at any time, join the livestream, ask you questions, share your stories. So regardless of where you are on your faith journey, it's definitely worth checking out. Just head over to www.crowd.church. Or, if you've got any questions, just email me directly at matt@crowd.church. I'll be happy to answer them if I can. Of course. Now before I get into today's conversation with Anni, let me give you a few links that I think are worth checking out on our website, www.crowd.church. The first one is, who encourages you to do stuff that scares you? And the reason I mention that is, Anni and her husband Tony are such good friends of mine, such encouraging people, the most inspiring people in some respects, that I know. Amazing people to be around. And they would definitely encourage me to do stuff that scares me. So do you check that out and whilst you're there, also check out the livestream, what does the Bible say about cancer? Now that livestream, what does the Bible say about cancer, in effect, is a condensed version of the story from Anni that you are about to hear. Okay? So I recorded this conversation with Anni long before what's the story was an idea in my head, if that makes sense. So, what I wanted to do in this episode was to play the interview with Anni cuz we could only share about 20 minutes in the livestream. But there's a full episode of stories and stuff behind it that are definitely worth listening to. And if you listen to this and you want toknow more about how she dealt with cancer, and more about maybe what the Bible has to say about it or Christian response to it, check out the livestream that is recorded on the website, what does the Bible say about cancer, where I, along with Chris and Sue Holcombe talk about this whole topic and Chris and Sue Holcombe are in the medical field of cancer, so they bring that whole aspect to it as well, and it was phenomenal. So do check that out. Definitely worth watching. Now, let's get into this. Anni, what can I say about Anni? She's awesome. She's originally from Germany. She now lives with Tony in London, and Tony is the pastor of Tower Hamlet's Community Church. Anni, like I say, has been on Crowd Church, as has Tony. He's hosted a few times. He's spoken a few times. So he's, he's a legend, Anni is a legend. Just amazing, amazing people. Can't say enough about them. That is fantastic. Anyway, Anni works for London City Mission. She works with the homeless and marginalized through housing projects and night shelters. She is just phenomenal and inspiring. So, without further ado, here is my conversation with Anni.
Anni, thank you for joining us. This is quite new, doing this kind of interview type thing for Crowd. So it's great that you are here and it's your first time, isn't it? With us here on Crowd church.
Anni Uddin: Yes. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you, Matt.
Matt Edmundson: No, no, no. Now, full disclosure, we've been friends for many a year. We've known each other for a fair old, far old amount of time, and so we came up with this, you know, we had this topic come up, what does the Bible say about Cancer? And I thought, well, who better talk to about this than you? For reasons which will become obvious as we go through this. So I'm super, I mean, I know a little bit of the story and I just, I kind of begin to tell you how inspired I am by you and Tony and how you dealt with this whole episode in life, which is why I think it's so great to have you here. So, yeah. Fanboy out. That's what I'm saying. So let's rewind back in time when, if we can, let's just dive straight into the cancer. When were you, when were you diagnosed with cancer?
Anni Uddin: It was in 2008. I know. It's quite a number of years ago now. Thank God I'm still here, and I'm well now, but it was in 2008 in January.
Matt Edmundson: And do you remember what happened?
Anni Uddin: Yeah, I do, of course. On a Monday morning, which is normally the day off with Tony, because Tony is a pastor obviously. So Monday's our only day off. And, I was working as a chaplain in HMP Holloway at the time which is a, or was a female prison. And yeah, that Monday morning I woke up, everything was fine. Was looking forward to my wonderful day off, when I noticed a lump on my breast and I thought, this wasn't there yesterday. I, yeah. It was just a total surprise.
Matt Edmundson: Wow.
Anni Uddin: Yeah. And then, then we went to, showed Tony, Tony thought, yeah, we need to go to the GP. We went, he confirmed that there's definitely a lump, and sent us to, well, referred us to the BART Cancer Center. And that was a few days later actually, that I was able to be seen. But on that very day, on that Monday evening, I was praying and I was, quite obviously, I was quite shocked to have found a lump at that point in time. I didn't know, you know, was it cancer? What was it?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Anni Uddin: But I prayed and I really felt such a sense of God in that moment.
Matt Edmundson: Okay.
Anni Uddin: And I felt like God was saying to me, not with an or audible voice or anything like that, but just that inner sense of knowing what is to come. So, and what, what I felt God say was that it is cancer and that it had spread and that I would have to go through treatment. That he wouldn't just miraculously heal me. So those were the things that I felt God speak to me.
Matt Edmundson: And that was on the Monday night.
Anni Uddin: That was all on a Monday night.
Matt Edmundson: That was one heck of a Monday. Geez.
Anni Uddin: It was not my best day off. I must say. Sorry?
Matt Edmundson: No kidding. I mean, yeah, that's quite, So how did you, I mean, you go from finding a lump in the morning, which you said wasn't there the day before. Was it that Rapid? Was it, was it actually,
Anni Uddin: Oh, well, it must have been there, obviously, but I had never noticed it before.
Matt Edmundson: Right.
Anni Uddin: You know, it just, it was just something that bothered me on that day. And, and that's how I noticed it, you know? So there was no warning, I wasn't feeling unwell. I felt absolutely fine. It was just suddenly that, that I noticed something that I hadn't noticed before that.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. So at the end of the day, you're praying. Right? And I, I know a lot of people who watch the, watch the live stream with us may have never been to church before. And, so praying is obviously, I mean, people know what praying is in some respects. It's where you're talking to God, right? You're just going, God, what is going on here? And you sense God talk back to you, which I mean, this is a whole separate topic, you know, what does the Bible say about God talking? Because that'd be, we'll get into that at some point. Coz that's just really interesting. So I'm really fascinated to know, what your, what your mindset was like at the end of the day, where you, after you felt God say to you, you have got cancer, it has spread and you're going to need treatment. I mean, there are three radical things that, you know, that God speaks. Where are you at Monday night when you, when you sense this?
Anni Uddin: It's, well, obviously I was, I was completely confused in some ways. And at the same time, I did feel, it was, I wasn't out of control. So I wasn't totally devastated. I was obviously in shock. But just that reassurance, that almost, that conversation, that Prayer with God, that I wasn't alone, that God knew exactly what was going on and that, that reassured me intensely. And just kind of, you know, the Bible says that Jesus, is also called Emmanuel God with us. And, that was a, sense there that I, that I wasn't going to be alone. That he would walk alongside me through this process. And no guarantee at this point of what the outcome might be. So there wasn't any sense of yes and I will eventually be well again. I didn't know that at that stage at all. So I was in, in a lot of turmoil emotionally at this point. And particularly Tony. I mean, Tony was like, No, have faith. You know?
Matt Edmundson: I can imagine the conversation. I genuinely can. Yeah. Yeah.
Anni Uddin: So, yeah. That was my
Matt Edmundson: So did you tell Tony on Monday night what you felt God had said to you?
Anni Uddin: Yes, I did. And, and that's why, I mean, his response was, well, let's not jump ahead of ourselves and, you know, let's just get the results first, not pre-empt kind of things, which is good advice.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Anni Uddin: But I wasn't, I wasn't panicking or anything like that. I was obviously way. Yeah, it was stunned, but I wasn't panicking. And then on the Thursday when we went to the hospital, they did all the tests. I had the mammogram, had scans, I had a biopsy. And by the end of Thursday, I knew I had cancer. I knew it had spread.
Matt Edmundson: They'd given, they'd given you that diagnosis?
Anni Uddin: They, they gave me that diagnosis really rapidly because they found cells in the biopsy.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. Wow. So, I mean, within the space of four days, your life has turned upside down quite a bit. And so, you were diagnosed with cancer. It was breast cancer. And you mentioned earlier that you are well now. And so obviously there's a story which we're going to dig into a little bit here.
Anni Uddin: Sure.
Matt Edmundson: The thing that I liked what you said there was that you were confused, but you knew it wasn't going to control, as in you were confused, you're in turmoil. This thing is, is heavy duty, but you, you sense God was with you and it wasn't out of control. Is that a, is that a fair reflection?
Anni Uddin: Yes, I think that's right.
Matt Edmundson: And is that, was that something you kind of had to fight for, or was that something that was, how can I word this? Was that something that happened to be the way it was. You'd been a Christian a while. You kind of, you knew how to pray. You knew how to talk to God. And so, this was kind of, can I put it this way? This was your training, you know, sort of coming to fruition as it was or was it, was this something you thought, no, I've got to fight for this, way of thinking?
Anni Uddin: Yes. It, it definitely, it didn't come, you know, at ease and I did pray a lot and I read the Bible that night and, and different passages and, you know, yes, it was something to come to after really searching myself and also thinking, I had so many different plans, you know, and I thought God had these plans for my life, and suddenly it was interrupted that the, the plans we had were completely interrupted. So, yes, it, it wasn't. It didn't just come, it was a lot of Prayer and it was, really searching the word of God as well, as well as sharing it with Tony. And then, you know, obviously, it's a journey. It's not every day that you feel the same. Every day you can feel 20 different feelings, you know, sometimes you feel good and, you know everything's okay. And then the next moment you think, Am I going to. You know, am I going to be alive in three weeks' time? How long have I got? And that's very, very difficult to handle that, not knowing what to prepare for. And I think that that was, at that stage, the hardest part was, I didn't know was it going to be Terminal cancer or was it going to be treatable to the point of being well again? And that aspect was the hardest part to, to really know. We had planned a holiday that had to be cancelled. My parents and my family live in Germany that, they couldn't come. They were too old at that point. My mum later on came, but only for a very brief time. So, I had no support, like from family in that sense. So I wanted to make sure that, I see them at some point, but I need to go through so many tests first. And, eventually I went to Germany just to see my parents, the house and Germany, just, and at that point I didn't have all the results back, so I didn't know how far it had spread and whether it was stage four, which would mean terminal and so, that was a really strange thing to think, is this the last time that I will see my parents? Is this the last time and I'm going to be in this room, in this house? That was very, very odd. And super difficult really.
Matt Edmundson: That sounds, I mean, how did you, I mean, I remember talking to Tony about this. How did you come to terms with the idea that actually life could be cut a lot shorter than you'd expected it to, come into terms with the whole idea of dying young?
Anni Uddin: I mean, I'm not sure if I ever came to terms with it because obviously, I was still waiting for news of what, what the results of the tests were. But, at some point, I came to the conclusion whether I die or whether I live, you know, I want to live for God, or I want to, yeah, I want to follow Jesus to the best of my ability, whether that is living well for a short time or for a long time and, here on Earth. I think that the, what really, helps me or helped me was just to know that, you know, if I die, that's not the end. You know, there is a heaven to be gained and, you know, it says that we die once and then the judgment and, but then Jesus is, is alive, you know, and he, he gives us another, another chance, he saves us from the second death. And I mean, that's a complicated, theological thing. But I, I just, I just love the fact that I know, Jesus, Jesus is there. On the other side of death for me as a Christian. Jesus is going to be there waiting for me. And that, that's my comfort. And that was my comfort then.
Matt Edmundson: So, I mean, that's amazing. And that's actually, I mean, we call in the Christian faith the hope, don't we? And that's the hope that we have, that actually death's not the end, it is just a doorway to another, another portion of time somewhere else. How did the conversation go with your parents then when you were in Germany and you, you didn't know if you were ever going to go back?
Anni Uddin: To be honest, it's hard to remember really, because, I mean, the conversations were already ongoing before I went, and by the time I went, it was just, yeah, we kind of related as always, you know, there wasn't a major shift in how, we talked a little bit about the cancer and what might be coming and how to deal with all of those things, but there isn't something, there wasn't any good bias or anything dramatic like that. Yeah, just kind of really normal life in some ways. You know, we, obviously my parents are Christians or were Christians, and so we prayed together as well. But not specifically a lot, you know, it was a, it wasn't all that different to other visits. It was just, in my mind, it was so different.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's fair play. That's fair. Geez. So how long was it? I mean, you've gone in, you've been diagnosed, you don't know if it's terminal. You don't know if it can be cured with treatment. How long was that waiting period of time?
Anni Uddin: I think it might have been about three weeks or something like that, three, four weeks. And then very shortly after that I started chemotherapy. And, that was another journey because obviously there's a lot of identity things that then start to kick up. But, but yeah, it was three or four weeks and then it was clear that it wasn't terminal, but stage three. So cancer that had spread. But it was, it was treatable and potentially healable. It was amazing. Because I just thought, okay, this is, it's going to be difficult. It's hard, but you know, at least there is hope that, you know, that I will have a few more years. It depends how the treatment or how I would respond to the treatment, but it was definitely a great relief I felt. It was a bit like a ton of bricks falling off my shoulders. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. I can imagine. I mean, this sort goes back to that whole first night you were praying where you felt God say it is cancer, it has spread, and you are going to need treatment to get out of this.
Anni Uddin: Yes. In some ways, you know, you believe these things and you hear, you may have a sense of God at one point and then, I don't know, life takes over and there's a lot of doubts and difficulties and because you don't have results back, there's still that sense, have I really understood this right? Have I really heard God? Am I making this up myself? But I did have an inner sense that I did, but you just don't know, do you? I mean, you know, we are human and we have a lot of wishful thinking too, so, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. You mentioned Anni, that when you found out you were going to have to do chemo, that there was a whole lot of identity things tied up in that. What did you mean by that statement?
Anni Uddin: Well, because I mean, obviously, the side effects of chemotherapy were to lose all one's hair.
Matt Edmundson: That's a very British way to say it, to lose all of one's hair.
Anni Uddin: It is.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. You're definitely British now, Anni. Come on.
Anni Uddin: It's not just, you know, my hair here, it's the eyebrows. It's the eyelashes. It's all bodily hair which is just such a weird thing. And initial stages you still have the eyebrows with this particular chemo and that's okay. But then when they go and the eyelashes, it, you just look so different and it cannot, you know, it's quite, makeup can't make up for it, because you know, it helps. But, yeah. It's just very difficult. You know, when you're, when you are sweating, the sweat runs right into the eyes. It's those kinds of things that it's just hard. It's difficult to explain if one hasn't experienced that. But, but yeah, having no hair obviously is a huge thing for anyone. But I think for women particularly, extremely difficult to face. And, you know, having a husband who sees you in, you know, when you've got the wig on or when you don't. That was, I didn't know quite what to make of it. It was really difficult as the hair fell out. You know, it's such a shocking thing and it actually happened much quicker than I thought it would happen, yeah. And I was really blessed to have someone, a really fantastic friend of mine, who did something amazing. So, she lived in New Zealand and decided to, is from Britain, but decided with her husband to come for a year to support me during this treatment. So, they, they stayed initially with us and then close by, and she helped me go wig shopping and you know, that might sound very traumatic and it was in some ways, but actually it was such a good thing to do with someone. Super helpful and of course I made her wear all the wigs that I tried on.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there was much hilarity yes.
Anni Uddin: Sorry?
Matt Edmundson: There was much hilarity. I'm sure.
Anni Uddin: There was, and in some ways that really helped me because I mean, I know it's not for everyone. People react very differently. Some don't want wigs, some want only hats or scarves or just don't want to talk about these things. But for me personally, it was really helpful to have someone with me, and to kind of have fun in that moment. That was before the hair came out and it was something that helped me prepare for that time when it would be gone. So yeah, that was helpful.
Matt Edmundson: And were there any other side effects of your treatment?
Anni Uddin: Yeah, I had, with the chemo I had a lot of pain. In the last stage of the chemotherapy, a lot of pain. Then during my surgery, I had a complication, which was actually very, very serious complication. I was a case study in the end. I was losing a lot of lymph fluid, like, it's not nice to talk about, but far more than, far more than someone else who would after 10 days be finished with that. You know, they would, after 10 days have not lost as much fluids as I did in one day. And so that, yeah, it was a very serious complication where the lymph duct had been severed and I needed to have surgery to have that repaired. And I think you actually came and visited me, Matt, in hospital after that surgery. And, yeah, I didn't look my best, I believe.
Matt Edmundson: Neither did I, Anni, to be fair.
Anni Uddin: Yeah, it was, yeah, I was very unwell when you came and visited me, and, it was probably my lowest period of time because I'd been already in hospital for such a long time. And this complication just totally threw me. My body was so weak, and I was in agony, in absolute agony for a long time. And it was quite life threatening in the end because that surgery didn't go well. But again, then, you know, they wanted to do further exploratory surgery and, but God intervened at that point and I really prayed with my sister-in-law. She also came down to London. She's also from Liverpool.
Matt Edmundson: She's been on Crowd, Sue. Everybody knows Sue.
Anni Uddin: Sorry?
Matt Edmundson: Everybody knows Sue. She's been on Crowd. Yeah. Yeah.
Anni Uddin: Ah, okay. Yeah, so Sue, my sister-in-law, she's wonderful. Yeah, she came down and she said, oh, so Annie, what do you think God is saying? And I said, I don't know. I don't know what God is saying. I just know he needs to do something; you know? All I know is he needs to intervene. Because my third surgery was scheduled for the day. And the surgeon had just told me, this is it. You're going to have to have another one. And I pleaded with him at that point and he said, No, you have to have another one. And, so I said to Sue, Sue, I can't. I just cannot have another one. And so, we prayed and prayed and asked God to intervene, to spare me from that. Shortly after, as we came back onto the ward, we walked onto like a kind of balcony that was attached to the ward and, the Surgeon came past and said, we changed our mind. We'll give you more time to recover and stay on this, you know, I was on a specific diet to help with the lymph flow, and from that day onwards, the amount of fluid I lost dropped off so significantly. And every day it got better. And actually, I never needed that, that last surgery. So God was amazing.
Matt Edmundson: So I mean, it is interesting when I just sort of, your story is you find out you have breast cancer, you go, it's treatable. You take the treatment. There are some complications with that treatment, hair loss and all that sort of stuff. And then right at the end there's this other twist isn't there, which then catapults it to a whole new level of disaster that's going on with the surgery that caused the problem with the lymph nodes, which causes pain et cetera. And so, it feels like life has gone from very bad to really, really bad, do you know what I mean? It's sort of, it's now taken another turn. What then happens? At what point do things start to, to improve? Do they improve after you and Sue prayed?
Anni Uddin: It's, it was also that same weekend I was, I think I was at my lowest point, as you know, after I'd had the surgery a few days after that and, you know, they had put me on this specific diet, which, yeah, it's complicated to explain. But anyway, it hadn't had any effect at that point. And, I was really low. I thought this might be the end. And, nobody seemed to be able to help beyond, you know, suggesting further surgery. And I was very worried about that surgery because I actually thought, I don’t know if I can cope with another, if my body can cope with another surgery. And Tony I think had given up on, on me in some ways as well. Obviously not totally, but the church also that weekend, praying and fasting, not just for me, but there were a lot of people around the church as well as across the world, friends that we have that were praying specifically for me. And then Sue came. And so, I think it was a combination of, of just, yeah, God's mercy, in a situation where so many people had cried out for mercy and compassion on me that, I believe God answered that and yeah, I think, I think that was a turning point. And it could have gone the other way. But God had mercy and, you know, for some people it doesn't go the other way like it did for me. You know? I was blessed that I, I came out with scars, but I'm alive today, but other not necessarily, and it could have gone that way for me too, but God had mercy. Why? I don't know. But we did pray and he did answer. So that's all I can say to that really.
Matt Edmundson: It's like God still had plans that weren't quite finished yet. They needed to be, to be resolved. The main one, keeping your husband in check. Probably.
Anni Uddin: I do believe that might have something to do with it.
Matt Edmundson: I am absolutely convinced I'm not going to lie. So yeah, this whole process, Anni, I mean, we were friends before the cancer. We've been friends since the cancer. It's one of those things, isn't it? When you are, when you are sort of going through life, you have an experience or an expectation of God, you have an understanding of God and a kind of theory as to how your life's going to progress in some way. Do you know what I mean? And then you're hit smack in the face. Like, you know, like a train has just come and walloped you sideways. And you realize actually it's not quite, like you said at the start, you know, it's not quite as you planned it. Did that challenge your faith? Did that rock your faith in Christ during that time?
Anni Uddin: Not really. It's quite interesting that it didn't, because I think I've had some other crises before in my life. They rocked my faith a bit more, in a sense that I had to really wrestle with God. You know, why me? This situation, with the cancer didn't. And yeah, I didn't, in terms of it didn't, undermine my faith. It didn't make me doubt God. In fact, there were so many situations where I just saw God's hand in my life. I mean, the day I went to the, my first chemo treatment, my friend Becky came with me, and I,
Matt Edmundson: This is Becky that went wig shopping, Becky?
Anni Uddin: Yes, the one I went wig shopping with and I had such a joy in my heart that I couldn't explain. That was so weird. And just an excitement in that sense, what good God might do through all of this. And it was just so unnatural. Just not something that you would ever feel normally. And so, so I do, I can only testify that God was truly with me that there was a, I wasn't walking that walk alone. I had obviously my friends, I had my husband and my family from afar supporting me. But, you know, God being there was the biggest support and not just in terms of just having a feeling, but also, you know, throughout those weeks and months. You know, there were lots of scriptures, lots of bible verses that really helped me. And I wouldn't say it was one specific verse that really, that was the formula that got me through it. But actually, so many Bible verses, so many passages and reading the Bible regularly every morning. And you know, so I love the Psalm, so I would read a number of Psalms, one chapter in Proverbs, and then different passages from the New Testament, the Old testament and different things spoke to me and kind of encouraged me at different times. So, yeah, that, that really helped me and that's why I think, the reason why I didn't feel that it rocked my faith or undermined it in any way. It strengthened my faith.
Matt Edmundson: That's a really interesting point, isn't it? That it strengthened your faith. And one of the things that I've said to people over the years about you and Tony, I mean, I've said many things about Tony over the years, but we won't go there. One of the things that I've said about you and Tony to many people, is you two, I mean you specifically, and obviously Tony with you as your husband went through this horrendous time and this is just me, you know, a friend from the outside looking in and I look at it and go, you’ve gone through something that I pray that most people don't have to go through because it was horrific. And yet throughout that whole thing, you both come out sweeter and more lovely and more humble and more gracious and just more trusting in God than before. And it, I think it's, I use the word inspiring. I don't use the word inspiring a lot. I think it is very inspirational the way that you guys have dealt with it and sort of come through. So, if you were to, I mean, you've been well now for a number of years, right? How long have you been clear of cancer?
Anni Uddin: Since 2000, well, 2010 was my last treatment in that sense but it, it took four years before they give you, you know, before I was, yeah, no longer under the oncology department.
Matt Edmundson: And how long was it before the pain stopped from the lymph problem?
Anni Uddin: I sometimes still have pain.
Matt Edmundson: Okay.
Anni Uddin: So, but it's not, it's not something from the cancers. Some of the side effects from the surgeries and just the fact that my bones are not quite what they were.
Matt Edmundson: Age catches with up with all this. Yeah.
Anni Uddin: But no, but there is, you know, there is still some pain sometimes. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: So, looking back then, you know, over the sort of the last 8 to 10 years, what did you learn in this whole process about your, about God, do you know what I mean? From a Christian point of view? What are some of the big takeaways that you've sort of gleaned?
Anni Uddin: I think probably a lot, just how important Christian community is. That we need others. We can't do this kind of life without brothers and sisters or Christian friends who pray, who are there when we need a meal or need someone to go to an appointment or things like that. Yeah, we're just, you know, we're interdependent. I think that's one big lesson that we need our brothers and sisters in Christ. The fact I, I think, you know, God is merciful. God is merciful. That he's a God who has compassion on us, whether we've done right or wrong, you know, God is a God who has mercy on us if we call on him. And that, that's something, that's one of the big lessons. You know, I've done lots of things wrong and I've not always had the right attitude and, you know, nevertheless, God has shown me mercy over and over and over again. Yeah, so just the faithfulness of God in just being there and stepping into situations when we are desperate and there were so many more situations would take a lifetime, not quite lifetime, but there is a lot of other situations where, where I just saw God's miraculous hand in some ways, to really rescue me out of situations. Just the fact that God is not just someone who wants us to obey rules, but he's, he's a good father. And Jesus is a good friend and cares for us.
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. Fantastic. And so, I guess one of my questions for you, Anni, is I mean it's been fascinating listening to your story. Again, just reminding myself of it all these years later. How can, you obviously went through that. You talked a little bit about Christian community. How can, how do we help someone who has been diagnosed with cancer if we don't have cancer? If we stand on the outside, it like knowing what to say or what to do. Everyone sort of goes into a cold sweat about it. Do you know what I mean? It's like, how do we do that? So, you, I mean you shared some of the stories there, but how can people help people that have been diagnosed with cancer?
Anni Uddin: That's a good question. I think, I think there are so many different ways and every person is different. And that's why I think is the best thing is to actually ask. Ask how they might want to be supported, what they would appreciate. Would they appreciate someone to visit? Would they appreciate a lift? You know, those kinds of things. Have conversations, but also, I think. So, there's a number of things, like practical things. I think Meal Rotas would be fantastic. Giving a lift or coming, coming alongside someone to go with them to appointments if they don't have someone to go with them. But ask obviously what, what are their, their specific needs? Some people, with Covid now, it's obviously, it throws in a whole another dimension and, so you. Public transport isn't the best way of getting to hospital and cab fares can be very expensive. So, to just offer someone, you know, to pay for their cab fares for a couple of times or something like that. Or give them, a nice day out or go wig shopping or, you know, hat or do something nice. And I guess, the other, just practical thing is, you know, in hospital, you need more if, if you're for any time there for, there's pyjamas that are needed. Think different things like that. But I think just words of encouragement cards. One thing that somebody did for me when, because I used to work in the, in the prison, and, one of the chaplains got all the colleagues and prisoners to write things to me, what, you know, what I meant to them. And somebody painted this lovely picture and, and they sent it to me as a package and it was fantastic. Really made such a difference. So, I think there are so many creative ways of helping someone. Which with physical needs, but also to look out for them if they are Christians who are coming to a church service, they might be really quite insecure when they're, you know, when they're in that phase and might not want to be in public spaces at the moment. It's even more difficult with the covid situation where people are at risk of infection and obviously the immune system is compromised when somebody has cancer. So just navigating that in a sensitive way is really important, I think. But maybe if they do come to church and they want to be in church, to ask them if they want someone to come in with them or to sit with them. And not always just to ask about how the chemo is going or how this is going, but actually sharing your own life with your own kind of situations, life problems with the person, because I think sometimes it can become so inward focused that it's unhealthy for a person to really just dwell on, on what's going on in their own life. It's really helpful sometimes to hear, Oh, someone else's problems, someone else's issues, and that really can refocus you. And, it's helpful.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, I remember the time you went down for the surgery and I came down to visit. My whole purpose that day, I mean, obviously you were in surgery. There's not a lot I could do to help you, you wouldn't want me in the surgery. But I thought, you know what, I need to take Tony out. We just need to go and have a laugh. Do you know what I mean? And just be, just be a bit crazy for a day, which we did and we had, as odd as it sounds that just that joy, that laughter in that for those few hours, I think. Whatever it takes. Just, just get involved. Now, obviously one of the things that you can do, is pray for people. Yeah. And you talk a lot about Prayer, and you obviously did a lot of Prayer and read the Bible for yourself. But in terms of, if I am praying for you, you've got cancer, what sort of prayers could I pray? What would be helpful, do you think? How can I pray? I suppose is a good question.
Anni Uddin: Well, I think, you know, there's different things. Obviously, there's the emotional and aspects to really pray about. To pray scripture that, that is encouraging, that speaks about life over a person is also very helpful, but also about their mental health at that point because it is, it's a battle of the mind at times. To stay focused, to have the will to get up in the morning to do something and during the day and to do something, if one is well enough, that is. And so those are things to pray about. Obviously, the chemotherapy, that the side effects wouldn't be as bad as they could be. That the, you know, that the surgery would go well, that there wouldn't be complications. That the, kind of team that actually deals with the patient would communicate well. So, the surgeons, the oncologists, the radiologists, and the nurses team that they all communicate well so that the care's really well done. And also, that there is people around for the person to really open up to speak about how they're feeling. How they're doing. And, yeah, there, there's so many aspects you can go forward.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's very helpful.
Anni Uddin: But I think, the infection as well as that's a very serious one, that they wouldn't contract any infections. And, and if they do, then obviously, because one of the things, that I've experienced was once, I developed a fever, but I wasn't feeling unwell and I wouldn't have gone to hospital. But Tony noticed how hot my head was, and he immediately got me to hospital and it was actually very, very important. So those kinds of things are just, you know, that's a practical thing. To pray about, but obviously to pray that there wouldn't be infections. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Did you find it helpful when people came and prayed with you?
Anni Uddin: I did, at times,
Matt Edmundson: Not all the time?
Anni Uddin: That's actually a really good question Matt, because one of the things I think when, because I'm the wife of a pastor, and I did go to Sunday services every Sunday, apart from when I was in hospital and people wanted to always pray for me when there was any kind of opportunity to pray for healing, everybody looked kind of at me and I knew it, and I didn't always want that. You know, I mean, I love prayer. And I want people to pray for me, but there was other people that need Prayer, and in hospital as well. I was too exhausted at times, and when I had a number of visitors. There was one time there were several visitors and they were all lovely people and they all wanted to pray for me. And one person I know she likes to pray very long prayers. And it was just too much. And I just said, Yeah, you can pray for me, but make it a short one.
Matt Edmundson: Be quick. Thank you, Jesus. Amen.
Anni Uddin: Sorry?
Matt Edmundson: A thank you Jesus. Amen. prayer, really.
Anni Uddin: Yeah, kind of, but because you know, there are different times and I think, you know, again talk, ask the person, you know?
Matt Edmundson: Be sensitive.
Anni Uddin: And very often people are so polite and they say, yes, yes, of course you can, but you know, I'm German, I'm not always polite.
Matt Edmundson: Bit more straight talking, Anni, is probably the right phrase. And that's, I think that's really interesting cause one of the things I've noticed when people pray for people who are sick especially is if I'm well and I'm praying for someone sick, then, then the person that's sick not only can feel, you know, thank you for praying for me, but sometimes can feel the weight of my personal expectation on them to get better.
Anni Uddin: Yes.
Matt Edmundson: And it's like, hang on, I've prayed for you to get better. Why are you not walking away healed? And so, the person who's not well is then kind of feeling the whole weight of that, right? Did that happen to you?
Anni Uddin: Oh, yes. And, actually there were, there were some, well, there was a member of the church who, every time she kind of saw me when I came in, she made you, you know, she would feel differently if I looked worse. You know, if I, if I didn't look good, then, then she thought her prayers hadn't worked. And so, and I knew that, you know, and it was hard. It was difficult. And, sometimes church. Church is a wonderful thing and it's a very supportive community. But I think when you go through long term illness, it's really helpful when somebody can say something from the front. So, in my, our church is a very community focused church. We love to talk to each other after the service. Not every church is like that, but so people would ask me lots of questions after a service and then I might repeat myself so many times, and that's really exhausting and reinforces the fact that I was ill. So, at some point I asked Tony to say something from the front to just say from the front, please don't ask Anni how she's doing. If she wants to talk to you about that, then she will do that on her own accord, you know? And so, I think that's quite helpful sometimes because, you know, the amount of people in a church depends also if it's a big church or a smaller church can make that a bit overwhelming. So, it's helpful I think to manage that process well.
Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting because what potentially is a good thing, you know, people being genuine, can actually not be helpful. And this comes back to the whole point about being sensitive, doesn't it? Anni, listen, it's been great. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I, and I appreciate you doing that. And I know it's not always easy to relive some of these times, but, yeah, I think, you know, people will watch this and maybe struggling with the same thing. As we close out, is there anything that if, maybe someone is watching this that has cancer, what would you say to them?
Anni Uddin: Yeah, I think I would say, put your hope in a God who really cares for you. He cares and, he knows what you're going through and he can help you. Please pray to him and read his word. And I, I'm sure that will be of help. There is no magic formula, but God is, is a personable God, and reach out to him and he will reach out to you. He's a God who's with us. God, Emmanuel.
Matt Edmundson: Awesome. And on that bombshell, Anni, thank you so much.
Anni Uddin: Yeah. Wonderful to be with you. Thank you, Matt, for asking, and it's been a real pleasure. Thanks.
Matt Edmundson: So, there you have it. What a phenomenal story! A huge thanks again to Anni for joining me in that conversation. Anni's such a legend. Now don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from because we have more great stories about faith and courage from everyday people lined up. And I don't want you to miss any of them. I really, really don't. And make sure you also subscribe to the Crowd Church live stream. Come and say hi. Come join in the comments. It'd be great to see you there. We live stream every Sunday, 6:00 PM UK time. And if you want to know what time that is for you, if you live outside the UK, there is a handy little link on our website at www.crowd.church where it will convert it to your local time. So do come and join us. Now, in case no one has told you today, you my friend, are awesome. Utterly, utterly awesome. Yes, you are. It's just a burden we all have to bear. It's just the way God made us, fearfully and wonderfully made, which translated means awesome. Yeah, it does. Now, what's the story is produced by Crowd Church. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favourite podcast app or on our website for free. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, George McCague, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson. Our theme song is written by the incredible Josh Edmundson, and if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, they are also available on our website, www.crowd.church, where coincidentally, you can sign up for the newsletter, find out about the live streams and all that good stuff, right? So that's it from me. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a fantastic week. I will see you next time. Bye for now.