06: Serving and Following God: A Daily Commitment

What's the Story

20 Sep

Today’s Guest: Nic Harding

Nic is one of the co-founding pastors of Frontline Church. He currently serves as the Director of Kairos Connexion, a ministry that focuses on connecting people to mission opportunities both locally and globally. Nic has a passion for living a life of mission, and he loves spending time with his family.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

Serving and following God is not something we do only on Sundays or during special religious holidays. Rather, it is a daily commitment that requires our time, energy, and attention.
Nic committed to loving and following God at 12 years old. It was a few years later when he had a near death experience that Nic's faith grew to grasp the reality of Jesus. As a result Nic took on the path of a daily commitment to serve and follow God through mission and discipleship.
"I have found that pearl in Jesus and His kingdom and His beautiful bride, the Church. There is nothing that I would exchange for that pearl. There is nothing I wouldn’t surrender for that pearl."

Links & Resources from today’s story

Kairos Connexion

Also listen to:

What does the Bible say about being a Christian?

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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello there. My name is Matt Edmundson and welcome to what's the story. A well like a new podcast, where we hear stories about faith and courage from everyday people. And today that is going to be the incredible Nic Harding about what it's like to seek to live with Jesus in competence, character and calling.
Now, this episode is brought to you by Crowd Church, which is an online church, you know as well as I do, that not everyone can get to a church building and it might not even be a place where you actually want to go for a number of reasons, right? And this is where online church works incredibly well, it's super accessible and a safe space to explore the Christian faith. And the thing I love about Crowd is that it is online first, talking with you and not just at you. You can join in the conversation, ask your questions and regardless of where you are at on your faith journey, it is definitely worth checking out, let me tell you. Just head over to www.crowd.church, or you can email me directly at matt@crowd.church with any questions that you've got.
So, before I get into today's conversation, I just want to mention a few links that would be worth checking out. What does the Bible say about being a Christian? That was a talk by Abi Sharples and actually something that ties in really well with what Nic's going to be talking about today. And you can also check out what Nic's doing. Check out the website, Kairos connection. That's what he's currently involved with. We will, of course put all of the links to these in the show notes, which you can check out on the website, www.crowd.church. So Nic Harding is one of the co-founding pastors of Frontline church. He currently serves, like I say, as a director of Kairos connection, which is a ministry that focuses on connecting people to mission opportunities, both locally and globally. Yes, it is. So Nic has a passion for living a life of mission. He genuinely does. I've known Nic for a long, old time, and that's such a great phrase, living a life of mission, to sum up Nic. And he loves spending time with his family. The man is an absolute Rockstar. He really is. So, you are not going to want to miss this. Get ready for my conversation with Nic Harding.
Matt Edmundson: Well, I am here with the fantastic Nic Harding. Nic, thank you for joining us here on Crowd Stories. Great to have you and welcome to the podcast.
Nic Harding: That's my pleasure to be with you, Matt. Always good to be with you, great man of God.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, you, sweet talker you, right here at the start. Now, Nic, it is fair to say that you and I have known each other for a fair few years. In my head, I was counting 30 of them, almost 31 years now I've known you guys, and we were both a little bit younger when we met.
Nic Harding: This is true. And the moment that stands out at the beginning of our journey, it wasn't the total beginning, but was the year that you lived with us, Matt. And, it's the year where I, it's the year when I discovered the meaning of the word floordrobe.
Matt Edmundson: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just, don't tell my kids. That's the main thing. Just don't tell my kids.
Nic Harding: No promises there.
Matt Edmundson: That's brilliant. I had such a good time living with you guys. It was, it was interesting because when I lived with you and Jen, it was the first time I'd lived with a couple who were happily married. Now my parents divorced when I was nine. So I guess at some point they were happily married. I just don't remember it. And so, living with you guys like I did, was quite, I mean, at this point I'd been in the church three or four years. And I'd seen a lot of happily married couples, which again was unusual for me, but not only am I seeing it, I am living in the context of a happy marriage, and watching you and Jen love each other and do the whole parenting thing. I learned more just by, I guess osmosis, right, than I ever did from a textbook. So, thank you for having me for that time.
Nic Harding: It was a total pleasure. I was always somewhat amazed some years later, Matt, when I heard you say everything I've learned about marriage, I learned from living with Nic and Jen, because quite honestly, Matt, I would never have known it at the time.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Nic Harding: You know, we never talked about it. It was never sort of, you know, I'm thinking about I might be married one day, Nic, any advice for me? It was just, as you say, it was just being together in the same house and living as part of our family. And it was a privilege and joy to have you.
Matt Edmundson: Now, this is something that you guys have always done. This whole lodger thing, which for our US cousins is basically where you take in refugees like me. And you, you kind of, it's not just a renter room scheme. It was very clear. You get involved with family. I mean, I had to do chores, I had to cut the grass. And you had a big old lawn at the time. Do you know what I mean? But it was one of those things where you suck people into family. Where did that come from? That whole desire to do that?
Nic Harding: That's a really good question. I think probably there were two influences on my life. One was living with the pastor of my church in Bristol before I got married, for a year. And they lived like that. And that was just like, just for Jenny and me, that just seemed like normal. So when we got married, you know, we had a year by ourselves, but the next 45 years we've always had people live with us and we've just loved it. And it just seemed like normal. Another influence was, reading a book by an Episcopal priest called Graham Pulkingham. There's a little book called They left their nets and that was back in the early seventies. And that was really inspirational about, living in community, being a place for discipleship, for healing, you know, for seeing people's lives sorted out, et cetera. But probably my first experience was as a 19-year-old. And I trace a lot of things back to this experience. When I spent a summer with Youth With A Mission (YWAM) on board a houseboat in Amsterdam called The Ark, and I don’t know how many weeks it was, whether it was six weeks or something like that I spent with them. And, those were probably the most formative weeks of my life because on that boat, not only were we living in community, there was 15 or 18 of us or so living on this boat, doing all the chores, but also sharing in reading scripture together, you know, growing as disciples, as we engaged with the word of God and worship God and prayed, but then going out on the streets in the afternoon, accosting unsuspecting by passers with a very poor rendition of the gospel and amazingly, some of them came back to the boat and some of them came to faith and it was that experience, Matt, of integrated, sort of mission and discipleship integrated into shared life community that absolutely got my attention. And really, to be honest, that's what I've been living out of for the last 49 years.
Matt Edmundson: It's really interesting. Isn't it? And how those events, if I look at it now because Sharon and I have been married 24 years this year. So nowhere near as long as you, but halfway, we're getting there. For 23 of those years, we have had people live with us. Come we be part of our family. And sometimes that's successful, most of the time it's successful. And you kind of, and again, you have people come back and people that have lived with us now have people living with them. They're living married lives. And it's interesting to see how for a bunch of people, this has become sort of like normal. And you talk, you talk about living in a sense of mission and discipleship. For those that may not know what those words mean, what do you mean by this sort of sense of community with mission and discipleship?
Nic Harding: Well just first of all, I think what you've just described, which is me living with my pastor before we were married and picking it up by osmosis. You living with us before you were married and doing the same again, others carrying on to do the similar thing, that is discipleship, that is learning by being alongside another person. The best word, alternative word is being an apprentice. So, you live and work alongside somebody else. You copy what they do. You learn how they do it. You know, you put your own spin on things obviously, but you then go and try and live that out in your life. And that's what being a disciple means. And we do that first and foremost with Jesus, you know, we walk and live alongside him. And we, we try and copy the way Jesus lived and the way, how he lived his life, his priorities, always being pleasing to the father in heaven, you know, always looking to be led by the holy spirit. We're trying to be like Jesus, not only in his character, full of all of the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, but also like him in his competences. So doing the things he did, you know, telling other people the good news, praying for people who are sick, casting out demons, coming against religious hypocrisy, all the things that Jesus did. We try to learn to be like him in those things. So that's what it means to be a disciple, a follower of Jesus who's trying to live like Jesus did, learn to be like him in competence and character. And in calling, and this is where the mission bit comes in because Jesus had a mission. And his mission was to bring good news to everybody and allow everybody to come into his kingdom under his way of living, his rulership, if you like, with him as king of their lives. And within that discovering the good news that this is liberty. This is joy. This is freedom. This is pure love. This is the fulfillment. It's everything we could ever have wanted for our lives, but never knew how to get for ourselves. That's good news. And that's worth passing on. So the mission is to enable others to experience that good news. So like him in his character, competence and calling and that calling to bring the good news to every human being. So that's the mission to bring that good news to everybody, to help them become disciples who also make disciples in the same way that we've just described.
Matt Edmundson: So this is not apprenticeship in plumbing. This is more like life skills, isn't it? This is spiritual, like you say that one of the things that you modelled to me was how to be a husband, which I can read in scripture, but you modelled it. And that sort of that whole apprenticeship thing, which is of course
Nic Harding: I like that. That's how Jesus raised his disciples. You know, they lived alongside him for three years. They watched him, they copied him. And when they got into trouble, he came and helped them out. It was just learning through doing stuff together.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because when you look at the data and you look at the stats and you do the research and you go, why do, why? What is it that attracts people to church that aren't necessarily familiar with church? And one of the things that comes top of that list is this whole idea of community, and living in a community, which is why I think getting involved in a local church is really important because you build that sense of community, don't you? And I think, you can get teaching, I suppose, just by listening to podcasts or watching videos, but what you can't necessarily get is that sense of community and getting involved with church. Is that that whole building of community and out of that community, is that then what brings this sort of discipleship culture?
Nic Harding: Yeah, absolutely. It's you know, the old African proverb, it takes a whole village to raise a child. I think it takes a whole community of believers, a family of believers, to raise a disciple. You know, we've experienced that many times in our own community. There's sort of small to mid-size group within our church. Lots of people getting involved with a new believer, helping them to grow in their faith rather than just being a one person, one on one type of thing. So, yeah, definitely. And that's where we not only experience the belonging or the family that we all long for. Everybody wants to be part of a family. You know, pretty much you look at any film these days or TV box set. There's always a family theme. People want to belong, even if it's true, even if it's to a gang or it's to a, a nerdy set of computer lovers or, you know, whatever it might be. People want to belong. They're looking for family. And I think, the church with all of its faults, when it's working as it should do, is an amazing family. And when those smaller units come together of, you know, a dozen, two dozen people and form that extended family with a mission, that's the place where people can most effectively become disciples and followers of Jesus.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's very good. So you talk about then, part of the calling is to, what we would call, share the good news or preach the gospel, if it was an old vernacular. In other words, just to tell people about Jesus. Who was it that did that to you? Who was it that shared the gospel with you?
Nic Harding: So if I, the very beginnings of my journey was as an eight year old, where I went to a school that had a chaplain. And there was just something about this guy that kind of, he had a quality about him. Often when you meet Christians, they're kind of full of Jesus. They've just got like a shine or a glow or a joy or a happiness, something about that. He had that, whatever it was. And I don't remember anything he did in the school, but I remember him as a person and, you know, sometimes we talk about be, do and say the good news, just being the good news, being who you are full of Jesus is good news. And he was like that. And I'm pretty sure that's what led me to pray a prayer in my bed one night. The selfish prayer of an eight-year-old who had, you know better and just said, Lord God, if you're there, I want to be top of the class this week.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I've prayed that prayer many times.
Nic Harding: Well, it never happened before and it never happened again afterwards at that school. And I, so God absolutely got my attention, but I didn't understand what it meant. And it wasn't until as a 12-year-old that I went, I was invited to a boys, you know, youth club, it was a Christian youth club. I didn't really understand that at the time. Ended up on a summer camp where, you know, somebody actually preached the good news. They told me about Jesus. And as they told me about Jesus, I thought, oh yeah, that kind of makes sense of what happened to me as an eight-year-old. And so I just really prayed a very simple prayer as a 12 year old just said, Jesus, I thank you that you died for me. I thank you that you love me. I thank you that you want to live with me and in me and help me to live for you and please come on in, you know, I'm all up for it. So that was, the simplicity of that prayer began this journey. And I would say probably it wasn't like there was nothing very dramatic. It was no like stars in the sky, no angelic hosts or, you know, audible voices. But as a 14, 15-year-old, I was on holiday one summer. We were on the south beach, in England, south coast of the, on a beach in England. And, it was just near Swanage. They had this incredible digging sand. So me and my sister, who's five years younger than me dug this one day huge hole. It literally was six-foot-deep sloping ends like this, but verticals.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.
Nic Harding: And we were, you know, really chuffed and we were sitting in the bottom cross-legged. My dad came to take a photograph and, as you can imagine, as he got too close to the edge, the whole thing collapsed and we were buried under hundred weights of sand and I couldn't breathe. Literally. It was so heavy. So, the weight of the sand just didn't even allow me to move my chest, let alone breathe. And I realized I was probably going to go unconscious quite soon because I couldn't breathe.
Matt Edmundson: So were you completely immersed with the sand?
Nic Harding: Oh, it was a couple of feet of it above me. Yeah, at least.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.
Nic Harding: My sister didn't have quite as much. She didn't go unconscious. I did actually go unconscious before they dug us out. As you can see, we survived.
Matt Edmundson: Spoiler alert. Yeah.
Nic Harding: But here's the thing, Matt. You think in that moment, when you know you can't breathe, you know you're about to go unconscious, for all you know that means you're going to die. You don't think all this through logically as a 12-year-old, but it's kind of all going on in there. You think at that moment, I would be terrified, panicking, sort of railing and fighting. All I remember of that moment was an absolute sense of peace and calm. And afterwards, I just couldn't explain it. There was no way. And it was like a piece like, well, I don’t know if I'm going to live or die here. If I live it's great. If I die, I still felt it's okay. It wasn't like I processed all of that, but that was like a flash going through my mind because I knew that Jesus was real in that moment. When I was facing death, I knew Jesus was real and that really became the backbone experience of my faith for the rest of my teenage years, until I hit university and had the most amazing adventures with God as a result of that, my faith.
Matt Edmundson: That's quite an interesting, there aren't many people I've met who have got quite a vivid, what I would call a near death experience like that. I did see in the press the other day that there are, there is a call by the medical board to actually put some money into researching this because there's so many people now having these near-death experiences that you, we have got to understand them a little bit more which is quite extraordinary. And that, I mean, I've heard you tell that story before, but that has, that obviously shaped you massively. Didn't it? That whole event.
Nic Harding: It gave me an absolute confidence about my faith that it was, I wasn't just making it up because you know, you have those kinds of doubts in the early years. Am I just making this up? Is this real? And even though it all makes sense, you know that the Bible's accurate, an accurate record, you know everything about it says Jesus did rise from the dead. There's no other explanation. Nevertheless, until something happens experientially, you don't really have the confidence to live it out fully. And that's really what happened that day.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Quite extraordinary. Quite extraordinary. So fast forward a few years at university, you studied medicine, is that correct?
Nic Harding: That is correct.
Matt Edmundson: Why medicine?
Nic Harding: Well, again, a long story, I'll keep it short. We had rubbish careers advice at my school and,
Matt Edmundson: Mine too.
Nic Harding: Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea what I wanted to do and because I'd enjoyed biology. In fact, it was my biology teacher who led the Christian youth group that I went to. So that kind of gave me an extra affinity for his classes and he was also the first one actually, when I was about 15, 16 to say to me, did you know Nick you're a leader? Nobody had ever said that before. And that was a, like a word that I took to heart and thought, okay, well, if that's true, then I guess you're going to do something with that Lord. Anyway, Biology was my subject that I loved. And, I just thought, well, you know, the bits of Biology that I was intrigued by were the physiology bit. So I applied to university to do physiology and I had two offers, one from Edinburgh, one from Bristol. And then my uncle wrote to me, and this has to be God, because my uncle had never written to me before. He'd never contacted me before. You know, I'd seen him at occasional family events. He was a headmaster and he'd heard of what I was doing. And he wrote to me and said, I think you might be making a bad choice, Nic. You know, physiology is very specialized. Why don't you consider doing something broader like medicine, which I'd never even considered? And, it was so out of character for him to initiate any kind of contact or conversation, I'm quite sure it was God using him to speak to me. So anyway, I thought about it, I thought, yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So I wrote to the two universities that had given me offers. Never heard back from Edinburgh and Bristol said, yes, come on in. We've got three Cs to do medicine. Can you believe it?
Matt Edmundson: Back in the day when three Cs could get you intimate and
Nic Harding: Nah you know, and back in the third day when three Cs really was three Cs?
Matt Edmundson: Wow. Did you ever talk to your uncle about that letter?
Nic Harding: Yes, I did. And I thanked him on several occasions because he actually lived in Bristol. So when I went to study in Bristol, got to know him and my aunt much better. And although he wasn't a believer, so he wasn't like doing it consciously knowing God was directing him, but God uses anybody and everybody, if he chooses to. So it's always good to be looking out for who's God trying to speak to me through. What casual conversations might there be, a little nugget that God's passing on to me, trying to have that as a habit, my way I process life generally.
Matt Edmundson: That's fantastic.
Nic Harding: I call those Kairos moments.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you do like your Greek words. We'll get into that. Now one of the overriding memories I have of my very early Christian walk was, this was before we met, I came to university as a fairly brand-new Christian and I got involved with the CU and I'd been there a couple weeks and the CU decided to do a mission called alive and kicking. And this was in, whenever it was 92, 93, somewhere around. No, no, no, it must have been, anyway. It was the early nineties. And they put out on the CU that they needed a treasurer. And I was doing accounting in Liverpool uni. So, I said, oh, sure, I'll do that. You know, I'll manage the money. And I got involved with it and I remember the mission started and we had a chap called Eric Delve coming and doing the mission, life changing for me. Every night that Eric preached was just life changing. Anyway, there was I remember sitting down one night in our sort of dorm TV area, eating a sort of chippy supper, and a young girl who I'd never really seen before came into me. She says you are involved with that mission thing. Aren't you? That Christian union mission thing. I said, yes, I am and she said, brilliant. Can I come along with you? I'm really intrigued by it. I said, yeah, I'm going in about 10 minutes. Do you want to come tonight? And she said, yeah. Bear in mind, I'd not heard like messages on how to preach the gospel and invite people to church at this point. I'm just sure, come along. Her name was Helen. And Helen came with me to the mission that night. And Eric did this thing where he preaches the gospel and he says, if any of you would like to, you know, become a Christian, start that Christian journey tonight, I'd like for you to come forward as the sign of your commitment. Lo and behold, Helen gets up out of the chair and moves forward and I'm like, okay, that's cool. I don’t know what all that means, but that's cool. And so Helen and I were chatting on the way back from the mission meeting. And she says, oh, I think I'll come again tomorrow. So the next day I see her and Helen says to me, oh, I think I'm going to try a church on Sunday called Bethany, right? Church with a mission, Bethany. And I said, oh, why are you going to try that church? Because I didn't know anything about any of the churches in Liverpool. I knew a couple of the guys. One was called Chris, Chris Rice. The other one was called Graham Jones, who you will now know, they were helping out on the mission. And, as was Dave Connolly. And she said the strangest thing happened to me today. I went to see my doctor. I'd registered with the doctor and I'd been going because I, I can't remember why she went, but something, maybe it was due with anxiety. I can't remember. And I genuinely can't remember. I just remember her saying, I went to see my GP and the GP said to me, there's something different about you today. Now bear in mind, university had only been going on a few weeks. And the GP had said to her, oh, there's something different about you today. And she said, yeah, I became a Christian at this Christian event last night and he and the GP said no way. And the doctor then said, what church are you going to get involved with said, I don’t know, I was thinking maybe this church called Bethany and it turned out you were the GP. And so you said to her, well, that's awesome because I am the pastor of Bethany, church with a mission. And so she came to the mission that night. And you're not going to believe what happened? So she told me the story and to this day, I mean, Helen now lives in the States. I saw her a few years ago, still going on with God, still real strong in her faith. Lovely, beautiful lady. And it was life changing for her. And that was what kickstarted my journey into coming to Bethany back then. So you were a oh, that's a long story to say you were a GP, but you were also running this sort of part-time church. How did that come about?
Nic Harding: So I had my own medical practice in Bristol. There's another long story behind that. Inheriting a single-handed practice of 3000 patients at the age of 27, which is pretty unheard of.
Matt Edmundson: Pretty scary too, I would've thought.
Nic Harding: Yeah. Yeah. Basically ran that for 10 years and took on other people. Single-handed to start with, other partners along the way who took more and more of the load and I did less and less of the work and gradually did more and more with the church that I was involved in, in Bristol. And after that 10-year period, God clearly said to us, you had to go and start a church in Liverpool. So I hadn't completely given up general practice. I was sort of hanging on by a thread, but I knew when we arrived in Liverpool, I'd need to earn some money. So I got a job at this practice in, on Ashfield road, and two and a half days a week, just part-time. And the same time as that started a church, which was in our front room, initially. Just 12 of us. 12 of us had moved up from Bristol, 12 adults, 12 kids. And that was the beginning from our point of view of the church that became Frontline church. And as you know, along the way, joined with Dave Connelly and Bethany, church with a mission and eventually Frontline. But that was the beginning of it. So it was like, I think most church planters these days, unless you've got some big institutional backing. Really have to be bi-vocational, you have to be self-supporting because you know, it's really tough to create an income before you've ever started. But eventually, I did that for a couple of years before the church grew to be able to give us a bit of finance and I was able to stop doing the general practice then, and haven't done any for 28 years.
Matt Edmundson: And do you miss it?
Nic Harding: No. No. I mean, on the dark days, I think, oh, it'd be nice to be back in general practice when life is just straightforward, you know, you go, you do your job and you come home and everyone's fine. Because church leadership can get very complicated at times, very messy and very painful, to be honest. And there are days you think I could do without that. The only other thing I probably have missed over the years is a six-figure salary but yeah, I can imagine apart from that, no, I haven't missed it in the slightest. I just love what I do too much. I'm so privileged and blessed to do what I do.
Matt Edmundson: So, what was it about the church that drew you into because here you are. You're a younger man. You've got a young family. You've moved from Bristol to Liverpool. You've given up what is a successful practice. You are moving to Liverpool, you're working part-time and as you said, GPs they don't, they earn, it's a six-figure salary. It's an easier life. So what would cause you to give up the money, make life much more tricky and difficult for this thing called the church? Why would you do that?
Nic Harding: Well, it all dates back to that encounter on that boat in Amsterdam, in 1973. And I think what I got a glimpse of there, Matt, was what the church could be. Now, I know that these kind of short-term mission experiences are never fully reproducible when you get back home. So, you know, I'm very aware of that, but I got something of a DNA, a spiritual DNA around mission discipleship and shared life community. That was, it was inextricably woven into my spiritual nature from that point on. And like I'd been branded with it and I couldn't, nothing I could do about it. I just, I knew I had to live it out to the best of my ability. But when I got back, I was entering to my sec, coming to my second year of medical studies. I did actually say to the pastor, I'm thinking about giving up my medical studies and becoming a full timer in Christian work. He said, well, you could do that Nic or my, my advice would be to finish your degree first. And of course, it was the best advice I could have had because yeah. What did I know at 19? I knew nothing. So, I did my growing up, you know, in terms of finishing my degree, doing my hospital jobs, doing my years in general practice. And it really gave me such a strong foundation for understanding people, life, families, drama, tragedy, mental health, physical health, all of those kinds of things. It was a, it was my Bible school to be honest. But the thing that ultimately made me want to cut down my commitment to general practice in Bristol, and then to do a short stint in Liverpool was this absolute passion for what I still believe in my heart of hearts the church could be. And of course, when people think of church, they think of buildings, they think of institutions, they think of Sunday services, and I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about the church that Jesus formed with his disciples, this, this band, this family on mission that he created out of these 12 disciples and the bigger group, the 72 who he trained and sent out. And this idea of being part of a community, a family of people on a mission to bring good news in every place where we live, learn, work, or play to be, do, and say good news, to be this good news for the world, which is so broken, so fragmented and with all of our advances in technology and, you know, science and health and education. And you know, they're talking about putting people back on the moon again now, aren't they? I mean, you know, with all of the advances, are people any happier? Are families any more stable? Are children growing up any more secure? You know, is happiness greater? I'm absolutely sure it's not. Certainly, hasn't increased in my lifetime. And I think knowing that there is a joy to be found in Jesus and wanting those people who have discovered Jesus to be a community together who share their lives together. You know, the early chapters in the book of Acts describe this amazing community. You know, they had their teaching, they broke bread from house to house, they shared their meals together with glad and sincere hearts, you know, and signs and wonders were happening all around them and people being added to this church every day. And I think, yeah, that's the church and I have a little phrase for it, Matt, you probably heard me say it. The church that Jesus died for and is coming back for. So, you know, when he died for the church, he had a church in mind that was worth dying for, and it's not the sort of the poor shadow of the church that we see so much today, you know, which is religious it's often hypocritical. It's often irrelevant. It's institutionalized. It's, you know, for all the good people in that, the church as an institution is not what he had in mind. You know, he wasn't about the institution. He was about vibrant groups of believers living this stuff out 24/7 in community together, blessing those around them, helping, loving, sharing that good news with others and those communities multiplying as more and more people came to faith as it did for the first 300 years of church life. I don’t know whether you realize this Matt, but the church grew from 120 people in the upper room over 300 years when there was no institutional church whatsoever, to a church of about 20 million people. And that was all based on these relatively small communities of believers often meeting in homes, gathering in the bigger spaces when possible, but generally it was these small communities, multiplying groups of believers and disciples who changed their neighbourhoods, who changed their cities, who changed their nations. So, emperor Constantine, you know, in early three hundred decided, oh, if I can't, if we can't beat him, you might as well join him and made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire, which of course was the downfall. But, you know, that showed the impact of these multiplying communities of believers full of good news, full of life, full of supernatural power, blessing, loving, and changing their worlds wherever they lived, learned, worked, or played. And it's that vision of the church, this vision that ultimately Jesus calls the bride of Christ. You know, I've written this book called Bride to try and capture something of my passion for what the church will be by the time Jesus returns, because he's not coming back for an impoverished, grubby, dirty bride who is, you know, uninterested in the bridegroom. He's coming back for a passionate bride, a bride that is beautiful, not only by virtue of beautiful character, but beautiful by virtue of being able to get the job done that Jesus gave us to do, which is to bring this good news for every man, woman and child. That's a picture of a beautiful bride and, you know, I want to give the rest of my life, whatever that looks like, to ensuring that this bride keeps on growing, keeps becoming more and more like the church that Jesus died for and is coming back for. And that's why I gave up medicine, Matt, to do just that.
Matt Edmundson: So when you, you see what you've described then, Nic is, if I was to put it in business vernacular, is a compelling vision. Right? You have got this compelling vision which drives you. And so many people I meet in life don't have that. And it's, and life, I think becomes one big drift, if I'm honest with you. How do you, I guess, if someone's listening to the podcast now, whether they're Christian or not, I suppose it's like, how do you get that vision? How do you understand, how do you get that glimpse of something that you can live for, a sense of calling?
Nic Harding: That's a great question. And I'm honestly not sure I've got a very neat answer for it because I think every person is different. We're all individuals and God treats us all individually and differently. And I think probably the first thing is just to want it, you know, to want a vision, to ask God for a vision and to say, look, Lord I'm not sure what my life is for. I need a purpose in my life. Would you show me your plan? And then in a sense that the very simplest approach is just to say, show me what to do next? What's next Lord? That great question that we ask a lot, you know, what's next Lord? And just take the next step and God gradually will unfold what is before you. You don't have to have, you know, the masterplan. Not everybody gets an architect's plan. Some people just get, go and put a few bricks over here, you know, and that I think a vision can grow gradually that way. I think surrendering everything that we already put our trust in and look to for meaning and significance to Jesus and saying, you know, I love my family. I love my job. I love my, the people I live near, you know, I've got good friends, Lord, but none of these ultimately count for anything unless I'm serving you and doing what you want me to do. And so, you know, I want to put those second to serving you. So would you give me your vision for my life so that all those other pieces can fit into that? And I think just it's that kind of surrender, making Jesus the Lord of everything. I would say that's a big, a big step along the way. Because Jesus said, you know, you can gain the whole world and still lose your soul. You know, why would we want to gain the whole world and lose our soul? That doesn't sound like a great deal. So surrendering whatever it is, surrendering whatever it is that we are putting our trust in for security or significance or whatever. I think digging deep into scripture, you know, that the Bible is a book of vision. And as you know, as you begin to read the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or read some of the letters that follow, just trying to get a glimpse of what is, what's the purpose of Jesus? Why did Jesus raise up 12 disciples? Why did he send those disciples out to the ends of the earth? What was this amazing good news all about and what are the implications of that? And how does he want that to be propagated today? What's this church all about? So reading scripture through that lens saying again, Lord open my eyes. There's that lovely verse in the Psalms, isn't it, where the Psalmist says open my eyes, Lord, that I can behold wonderful things in your law or your word. So I think that's the third thing. The fourth thing that comes to mind is most of us catch a vision for something by tasting it. If you've never tasted, you know, imagine you've never tasted barbecue spare ribs, Matt, you know, and someone tries to describe to you what barbecue spare ribs taste like. You know, it's never going to be the same as actually tasting them, is it? You know, once you've got those things in your mouth and the saliva's running and you're dripping all over yourself, this barbecue sauce. I'm salivating now thinking about it. Tasting it is always the thing that's going to finally clinch it. And so I think putting yourself in the place or the way of experiencing something of the vision that God's wanting to give you, I think that is also massively, massively important. It's like, you know, we talked about earlier with community. It was when I lived in community with my pastor of my first church, that I caught a vision for it because I was experiencing it. You know, it's only when I sort of begun to share Jesus' good news with other people on those YWAM missions that I went on that I just thought, Hey, this is amazing. I mean, I was always terrified, you know, when I sort of went out. In fact, Jesus sent the 72, when he sent them out, they returned with joy. Doesn't say they went out with joy. And I often think that's the case. You know, sometimes the thing we're most terrified of is potentially the source of the greatest joy. But experiencing it was the thing that persuaded me that actually, even though I'm a natural introvert and a shy person, you know, I'd rather keep my own company, read a book in a coffee shop than go and, you know, talk to people. Nevertheless, because I've experienced it, I've tasted it, you know, I can't go back. And so I think whatever it is that you think God wants to give you a vision for, dip your toes in, have a taste, experience something different. And maybe that will also expand your vision. So there's just a few thoughts, Matt.
Matt Edmundson: Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. So this vision I'm assuming has developed in you over time, right? And, the more you've walked with Christ, the clearer it has become. And so the journey that you've been on with church, for example, so you are, you're sort of stepping back from GP or being a GP. You are becoming more and more involved in church leadership. Was church leadership all that you imagined it to be, was it as, you know, pristine and beautiful as everybody expects it to be when they enter church leadership? Or was it a little bit more complicated than that? Knowing the answer by the way.
Nic Harding: Yes, of course you do. You've seen me go through some of my ups and downs of church leadership, Matt. So it'll be no surprise to you. I mean, I think leading church, planting a church, leading a church is an amazing privilege. You know, one of the Epistles says, it's good things for someone who desires to be an overseer, desires to run a church. And it is a beautiful thing. And I wouldn't want to discourage anybody from doing it, but I would say go into it with your eyes open because where there are people there are problems, where there are problems there is pain, and you know, that pain will affect you at some point. And out of people's brokenness, they do and say things that are hurtful and, you know, you can have the best will in the world. You will still upset people. You will say things that they get offended by, they will feel ignored or rejected by you. They will start bad mouthing you. And you know, all of those things happen. And, you know, generally, you sort it out, you get things put right, and you apologize. You know, I've done plenty of things I'm not proud of in my leadership. I've got angry, I've said things out of turn and I've put pressure on people unwittingly, and, you know, I've done all sorts of things. And I think, yeah, you have every right to be cross with me. I apologize quickly, say sorry, and try and mend the relationship. But sometimes things happen that feel like completely beyond your control. And there were, you know, the Queen had her terrible year, which she called her Annus Horribilis when everything went wrong for her and her Royal family. And I, I describe my years of 2008, 9, 10, and 11, my Anni Horribilii. In other words, those were the really top years for me, where everything seemed to start going wrong. And, you know, that we had a failed building project. We had a couple hundred people leave the church. There was a major issue in the leadership of the church, which you know, too was very painful to resolve. We changed the structure of the church and half the church was delighted and the other half were absolutely mad at us. And then we had this big expose and the media that, you know, because the local newspaper took, took against us and didn't like us and tried to chase us out of town. You know, they were pretty horrible years and I would not want to go through them again. And it caused me huge amounts of stress and anxiety. I ended up needing counselling and prayer to kind of get through all that. In fact, if it wasn't for the, the support of some of my closest friends and some of my church pastor friends in the city who I'd been working with for years and because you know, they were outside of the church situation but they understood the pressures of church leadership and they were amazing how they stood by me and helped me through when at times was just weeping my heart out, you know, didn't know what to do next. But God was there and somehow, we got through it and the church recovered and you know, and it's, since John Harding took over, I think it's gone from strength to strength. He's done a great job in the last seven years.
Matt Edmundson: It's interesting, isn't it? Because I, I think as a parishioner, for want of a better expression, you are spared a lot of the, the drama, which goes on in the leadership meetings, because obviously I'm not in the leadership meetings and you know, you're spared a lot of that. You hear bits and bobs around it, but you're spared the detail. And I remember, you know, with you, with Dave and the guys going through some of these things. And you're kind of like, goodness me. For me, I remember writing a blog post, being the pastor of a church is probably the hardest job in the world. And I think partly because everyone's quick to complain for the slightest thing and, and people are very slow to say thank you for the biggest thing in some respects. And how did you, how did you not get disheartened through all of that? What was it I guess about your friends and the prayer that they were doing which helped you persevere?
Nic Harding: I think feeling like you're not on your own is half, is half the battle. And obviously being married, having Jenny, my wife to support me through that and good friends and other church pastors. Just feeling not alone is hugely important, but you know, there's an inner journey you have to go on as well, which is digging deep in for the resilience and the strength that God wants to give you. And, we've got a cellar in our house as you know, Matt, and I remember through the worst of it, the other thing I forgot to mention was getting half a million pounds in debt in the middle of that terrible years and think, oh God, what else can go wrong? And just going into my cellar and saying, Lord, I can't get through today. It literally was a day-by-day survival. So Lord, unless you are with me, I can't go on from here. Like Moses did in Exodus said, Lord, unless your presence goes with us, don't lead us on from here. And I felt like that every day for months and months and months, Lord, you've got to speak to me. I need a fresh word, fresh manna from heaven to sustain me today. Something that will encourage me and give me strength and just, you know, my own time with God was very precious. It was very intense. It was very intimate, but it was ultimately what sustained me. And I think, I think about king David in, I think it's 1 Samuel, where he's on the run and he's left his troops at a place called Ziklag. And when he returns to Ziklag, some Amalekites or Ammonites have basically plundered all of his wives and his goods and his children, just taken them all away. And the few mighty men he had with him were ready to stone him. They were about to blame him for everything that had gone wrong. And of course, that's what happens when you're in church leadership, anything goes wrong, the pastor gets blamed and, you know, fair cop in some ways. But, and it just said in that moment, David strengthened himself in the Lord and I thought, wow, okay. You've lost everything. The people who you thought were your best and closest allies and friends were about to stone you, where do you go? There's only one place to go, Matt and that's to God. And to say, Lord, I need your help. And really it was those kind of daily encounters with God that helped me to, to get through.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, wow. No, thank you for sharing. You mentioned Jenny, and Jenny's not someone we've really talked about yet, and I, I do want to touch on this because, you and Jenny, Jenny is your wife, obviously, of 46 years, which is incredible I think. You know, people say to me, how long have you been married? I'm like 24 years. And I'm just amazed that Sharon hasn't killed me yet. You know, it's that kind of, how is she still with me kind of a thing. So you guys have been married for 46 years. I'm curious to know, as a man who has been married half the time, what's your, what's your tips? What's your strategy for just a long happy marriage?
Nic Harding: Yeah. Good question, Matt. And I'm sure. Everyone would have slightly different answers to mine. But I think for Jenny and I, it was around having a shared vision before we got married. So we actually both went on YYAM missions to different places in the same summer of '73, both came back looking for an expression of church in which we could grow in all the things we'd learned while we're on mission and joined a little tiny house church. It was a dozen people in our front room, just as it was 18 years later when we came and planted Frontline. And so we, we had a shared vision. Unfortunately, we had completely polar opposite personalities as is often the case. So, if you know the Myers Briggs stuff, personality profiling, we were opposite on every single one of those four different things.
Matt Edmundson: That does not surprise me in any way.
Nic Harding: No. And you know, and opposites do attract, but then the very thing that attracts you before you're married, within a couple of years, starts to drive you crazy. So, you know, there's lot stuff to work through, there's, I mean, communication is such a big one. Learning to honestly communicate and vulnerably communicate. Learning to say sorry, learning to apologize. Be the first to apologize. You know, I've tried to put that into practice all my life. It's been difficult at times, you know, sometimes you think, why did I get married? Sometimes you think, you know, God get me out of here. You know, when it's at its worst. But you've made a commitment. And I think knowing you've made a commitment and that there isn't another option. You have to press through. And I think if you have kind of, well, if it doesn't work out, we can get divorced, as an option in the back of your mind, then you don't press through the really difficult times cause every marriage has them. You know, times when Jenny and I both said to the other one, I don't feel any love for you right now. But knowing that if we keep making good choices and investing in the relationship that love will return, which it does, you know, and I would say, we've got that stronger relationship now, 46 years on than we've ever had. And I think learning to understand each other, what's important to each other, just learning to be kind to each other. You know, Jenny is an amazing, amazing wife. And she's put up with me for 46 years. And I would say generally she has facilitated my leadership of church and she's allowed me to do that by often taking a, you know, other people might look at it and say a subservient role, you know. Being responsible for hospitality and being a homemaker and raising children. She's had plenty of jobs along the way too, but you know always she's kind of fitted around me in the vision that we've been together trying to work out for church. And I think one of the things that happened when I handed on the church to younger leaders, is I said to Jen, look, this is your chance to completely do what you want to do. You know, you don't have to stand alongside me in church leadership anymore. What do you want to do? And she found it really difficult because all her life, it had been us together with me on the sort of leading bead. And even though we were an equal partnership, she was happy to play that support role. So, you know, that's when she, seven years ago, she began to explore what that might look like and has done some things that she's just loved doing ever since then. And, it's much more on an equal footing. I'm trying to make sure she's doing what she wants to do as much as she is for me. So I think it, yeah, negotiating what works for both of you, look for the win-win, first to apologize, be kind, you know, communicate, communicate, communicate, and push through the seasons when it's difficult, yeah. It's a few things.
Matt Edmundson: I remember reading a quote by, I think it was Polly Wigglesworth. I think that was Smith Wigglesworth's wife's name. And if you don't know who Smith Wigglesworth is, he's, in Christian circles, he's a well-known, I guess you'd call him a miracle worker. I mean, God did some amazing things through Smith Wigglesworth and he has some extraordinary stories. And if you ever get a chance to read any of his books, do so. But he had a beautiful wife called Polly. And Smith Wigglesworth said of his wife, everything that I am under God, I owe to my dear wife. And every, what I would call successful man. And I'm not talking about wealthy, because I know a lot of wealthy men. I don’t know if I'd call them successful. I'd call you successful though, Nic. Every successful man I know, echoes that phrase. Do you know what I mean? They all go. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Amen. And they raise their hands and I mean just bringing it back to the start, you know, like I say, watching you and Jen in those early years was so helpful for me. And I think listening to you talk, one of the words that springs to mind, I mean, yeah, I can use business phrases like you are obviously very resilient. I think it sounds to me listening to your story, you are a very committed and very faithful person. You are faithful obviously in your marriage, you are faithful in your family, you are faithful to the church to the point where you go, I've made a commitment to do this. And whilst it may be easier at the time to leave, I'm going to stay through thick and thin. What I guess, in our closing minutes, what drives you to do that, to make the difficult choices, to be that sort of faithful character?
Nic Harding: It's hard to know because you kind of, you're kind of trying to dissect yourself to figure out what that looks like. I mean, I do think for me, Jenny has been a massively important part of everything I've done. And I couldn't have done, as you say, I couldn't have done it without her. And, you know, just simple things with Jenny, just like praying together every day. As the old phrase of couples who pray together, stay together. But I couldn't have done it without Jenny. And I think as well, what's the alternative to seeing things through? You know, the alternative is quitting. The alternative is saying it wasn't worth pushing through for, and I think it's like Jesus told the parable, didn't he, of the Pearl of great price? And when you find something so precious and he says, the person who wanted that Pearl went and sold everything they had to gain that Pearl. And it's, I feel like I have found that Pearl in Jesus and his kingdom and his beautiful bride, the church, and there's nothing, nothing that I would exchange for that Pearl. There's nothing that I wouldn't surrender for that pearl. So why would I give up? Why would I quit when that's the one thing and it's still, you know, it's still to come? I see bits and pieces of that picture, that vision that I've kind of given my life for, but there's still so much more to come. And I think it's both the alternative who wants to be a quitter and it's the vision of what is still to come and the hope of what is still to come. And doing it, not only with Jenny, but doing it in community, doing it with others who share that passion. I think those are all the things that have helped me keep going and not give up.
Matt Edmundson: Wow, that's wonderful. Nic, you are an absolute legend. And I wouldn't be here without the input of you and Jenny. I know that. And the same with Dave and Julie, the other co-pastors of Frontline. The impact that you have had on hundreds and thousands of people around the world is extraordinary. So thank you. And thank you for being here with us on Crowd stories. It's been great to chat with you.
Nic Harding: My pleasure, Matt. Thank you for having me.
Matt Edmundson: So there you have it. What a great story. Huge thanks to Nic for joining me today. And don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from, because you've guessed it, we've got more amazing stories about faith and courage from everyday people lined up. And I don't want you to miss any of them. I genuinely don't. I think they're awesome. Make sure you also subscribe to the Crowd Church livestream. Yes. We livestream our church service every Sunday, 6:00 PM here in the UK, which I think is 1:00 PM EST. If you want to know what time that is for you in your particular place in the world, just head over to the website, www.crowd.church. There's a little thing that will tell you. Come join in, come say hi in the comments. It's going to be great to see you there. And in case no one has told you today, you, my friend, are awesome, utterly awesome. As I've said, it's just the way God made you. It's the way God made me. It's a burden we have to all carry. Awesome. You're awesome. What's the story is produced by Crowd Church. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favourite podcast. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, George McCague, Estella Robin, and Tim Johnson. Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson. And if you would like to read the transcript or get the show notes or the links that we've given in this show, just head on over to the website, www.crowd.church, where you can also sign up for our newsletter.