01: From Anxiety to Inner Peace

What's the Story

28 Aug

Today’s Guest: Esther Richards

Esther is a part of the student ministry at Frontline Church. She lives in Liverpool with her husband Chris. Esther has an archaeology degree and loves to learn about ancient civilizations. She enjoys spending time with family and friends.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

There are different types of mental health and sometimes mental illness is caused by situations and at other times it's just to do with the chemicals in your brain and the way that your brain is wired. Esther talks about her challenges growing up with mental health issues like anxiety, depression, self-harm, suicidal tendencies etc. and her journey of overcoming it.
Even though you've always considered yourself a Christian, there's still an element of finding that out for yourself. Especially if you've grown up in a Christian family, there still an element of discovering your own faith and of actually experiencing God. Esther went through that journey too that transformed her life for the better.
She says, be careful what you pray for because God does answer prayers. And that true freedom isn’t getting to decide what you want to do but knowing you do not need to make these decisions because God is in control and you can trust God with your whole life. He made you and knows what’s best for you. So just trust in Him!

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Matt Edmundson: Hello there. My name is Matt Edmundson and welcome to What's the Story, a podcast where we hear stories about faith and courage from everyday people. And today we are gonna get started with Esther Richards. We're gonna be talking about what it's like to be a student. We're gonna be talking about mental health and the struggles that Esther had, to mention just a few of the amazing things.
Now, this episode is brought to you by Crowd Church, which is an online church. There may be times when not everyone can get to a church building and it might not even be a place where you actually want to go to. And this is where online church works really well. It's super accessible and a safe space to explore the Christian faith. And the thing that I love about Crowd is that it is online first, meaning that it doesn't talk just at you, but rather it's a conversation with you, which you can join in through the comments. You can ask your questions, you can share your stories. And so regardless of where you are at on your faith journey, it is definitely worth checking out, just head over to www.crowd.church or you can email me directly at matt@crowd.church with any questions. Now, before we get into today's conversation with Esther, I just wanted to mention that it is definitely worth checking out Esther's talk, which she did for Crowd Church called "What does the Bible say about trusting God?"
Now, Esther is part of the student ministry at Frontline church. She lives in Liverpool with her newly crowned husband, Chris. Esther has an archeology degree and loves to learn about ancient civilizations. She enjoys spending time with friends and with family. And so without further ado, here's my conversation with Esther.
My name is Matt Edmundson, and this is a podcast where we talk to our guests about their Christian faith, difficulties they have overcome in life and what their hopes are for the future. So my aim simply with this podcast is hopefully to inspire you and encourage you in the Christian faith, regardless of where you are at on your journey. We just talk to real people and dig into their real story. Now, Crowd Stories is part of Crowd Church. And if you would like to know more about the church or about the Christian faith, you can check it all out on our website at www.crowd.church. And of course you can subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts from to make sure you never miss out on an episode.
Now, today I have the fab pleasure of talking to the newly crowned Esther Richards. We were just talking then before we hit the record button, is it Esther Norris or Esther Richards and you were Esther Norris and you are now Esther Richards. And have been for a whole month. Is that right?
Esther Richards: Whole month? That is correct. Yes. A whole month.
Matt Edmundson: A whole month. Do you feel like you've been married forever now?
Esther Richards: Yeah. Although I actually did say to him yesterday, I was like, do you ever forget that we are married? Cause sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, we did that. That happened. Sometimes I just lose track. And I'm like, oh yeah, we got married.
Matt Edmundson: Oh yeah. We did that thing. We did that thing a month ago. Were you guys engaged for a while?
Esther Richards: Just over a year. So we kind of, in an ideal world, would've been shorter, but we pushed it because of COVID. So we were planning to have as COVID-free a wedding as possible, which we almost managed, but, in theory, it was a regular wedding. So it was alright.
Matt Edmundson: Ah, okay. And recently, Esther, we've had you on at Crowd. You've done your first Crowd talk. You've got that under your belt. Now you're on Crowd Stories. So you're a regular here now. Aren't you? A regular face on the old Crowd tele system that we've got going on. So thank you for doing this. Thank you for doing Crowd Stories. Great to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this conversation since we've agreed to do it actually, and keen to dig into the story, but before we get into it a little bit, I'm curious to know, the first month of marriage. I've been married 24 years. So there's no way I can remember back to the first month I was married, its just gone. So you know, now that you've been married a month, what advice would you have given yourself if you could go back and have a conversation with yourself, I don't know, pick a timeframe, three, six months ago and you're engaged or you were just thinking about getting married. What sorts of things have you learned that you wish you knew back then?
Esther Richards: Good question. I think in terms of the wedding day itself, it was like as long as you get married and you have a nice time, that is literally all that matters. To just chill out, take it easy. I feel like, I don't know. That's well, one month. I actually got a great piece of advice from John Harding recently. And he said, actually as newlyweds, you're still in a time of transition, that it's not actually that you're just married and now you just know how to do marriage. That you're still a good chunk of time as newlyweds where you're still learning. You're still in this big time change. So it's all right to think, you you haven't worked out rhythms and how it works naturally yet. And I think that's been like really key this month, has been like, it's all right, we're still working out. Things are still changing, even though we already had the wedding. This is the real bit now. So yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. You've gotta figure it all out.
Esther Richards: Exactly. Yeah. Now we've got the rest of our lives.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely. That's a good way to think about it actually, time of transition. I don't know if 24 years later, I'm still I'm out of that time of transition. If I'm honest with you, I think I'm still learning. I think I'm still figuring it out, and that's just of the way it is. So, congratulations on your wedding and your making it through the first month. You know, marriage, as you have found out is one of the most life-changing things and it's just extraordinary. So I'm stoked for you. And hope it goes super, super well. I've been, like I said, married 24 years, best decision I ever made. She's awesome, my wife, and it changes your life for the better. Awesome. And congratulations.
Esther Richards: Thank you.
Matt Edmundson: So I don't know. It is what it is, isn't it? It's now the rest of your life as Mrs. Richards and that's awesome. So, but of course you weren't always Mrs. Richards, you were Esther Norris. And I know you because of Frontline church, we both go to the church and that's where we met. And I've known you, I don't actually, I tried to think about how long I've known you for, it's gonna be a couple of years. How long have you been in Frontline now?
Esther Richards: It'll be five years in September since I moved.
Matt Edmundson: And did you come as a student?
Esther Richards: Yeah, I did. So moved to Liverpool as a student in 2017 and came to Frontline my second week in Liverpool and we said, oh, we'll try a few different churches just in case. And then got back to the next week. And we were like, oh, let's just go back. And I've been there ever since. Just stuck around.
Matt Edmundson: Never could leave after that. What was it that drew you in?
Esther Richards: I think, everyone was just really excited to be there. And there was just this like real sense of community and relationship, but also you could tell that people that were there were excited about Jesus and I was like, this is the kind of church I wanna be part of. So I think that's what made a difference. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: That's a really interesting point. Isn't it? It's these things that you just pick up that draw you in and you're like, it's an interesting thing, how that works. So you came to university then as a Christian. So at what point, I guess were you born a Christian, have you always been a Christian? Was there a specific point for you? Just tell us a little bit about your journey.
Esther Richards: So I grew up in a Christian family of generations of Christians. So both sets of my grandparents, Christians, and some of their parents were as well. So really going through the generations. So it's something that I just always lived. I think I said the kind of classic Prayer that kids say when they wanna be a Christian, when I was probably about five or six, so pretty young. But I think it became like a decision that I actively made for myself when I was about 12. And I experienced the presence of the Holy spirit for the first time. And that was when I was like, oh, okay, like I'm in this is what I wanna dedicate my life to. So would've always said I was a Christian, but that kind of around 12 was when I was like, oh no, this is it. This is what I want to do forever. But yeah, grew up in a Christian family, all my family Christian.
Matt Edmundson: So what do you mean when you say you had this sort of encounter with the presence of the Holy spirit for the first time? I mean, I know what that means for me, but if you've never been into church, if you've never experienced that, what does that actually mean?
Esther Richards: So for me, at least that time, I was at a youth camp called new day. And we basically were in some worship and I was praying and I just felt this like overwhelming, but unexplainable sense of peace and joy and just excitement about life. And it was never something that I could have conjured up for myself. And it just got into every part of me and was unexplainable. I couldn't be like, oh, that's just cuz I'm having a nice time with my friends. It was just very clear that this was not from me. This was from God. And it was a bit easier because it had been explained to me before that happened so I could recognize it cuz I'd grown up around it. So I knew that it might happen one day, but it was unlike anything I'd ever expected. And since then in those moments, of just complete yeah feeling the presence of holy spirit, it's like this unexplainable feeling of joy and peace that it could not have come from inside of me is how I'd explain it.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. Because I think it's one of those things, isn't it? And Christians, a lot of Christians will have experiences of God, which I think is great. I think it's in the Bible, Paul prays that we would know the love of God, which means know through experience. When you look at the original language, it's know end experience. I pray that you actually experience the love of, the full width, breadth, depth, and height of it. That's a lot of love to experience. And so when that experience manifests, what that looks like and feels like, I think it's interesting when you talk to people about it and they often use this phrase, I just felt, I dunno how to describe it other than I felt an overwhelming sense of peace. It's a common sort of phrase. An overwhelming sense of joy. And that tends to be a lot of people's experience, certainly early experiences with the holy spirit is this sort of just sense of peace, of love, of joy. And they can't explain it. They can't describe it, but they're the best words that they can use to go with it.
Esther Richards: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's cuz I would have a distinction between joy and happiness. Because I wasn't just feeling excited and feeling happy, but it's like to the depths of who you are, like something switches and you feel joy rather than just happiness that might fade, but it feels really significant. And you think, wow, like that's changed me because I now have joy rather than just feeling happy sometimes. And I think that was another part of the difference like that felt different to just human happiness.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. That's good. And I like that because here you are, you've always considered yourself a Christian, but there's still an element of finding that out for yourself. Especially if you've grown up in a Christian family, still an element of discovering your own faith and still an element of actually experiencing God. And it not just being a lofty, do you know what I mean? A mental idea. It's good. Don't get me wrong. The mental knowledge in a sense, but it's more than that.
So at 12 years old, you have this experience with the holy spirit. At this point, you go, yeah, this is game on, right? And this is language I would use. So sorry to, yeah, it's kinda game on. Here we go. So does life take a radical turn at 12 years old what happens next?
Esther Richards: It probably didn't take that much to be honest. I think that I grew up, so my dad led the church that I was part of. My parents had started that church when I was about five or six. So I was already just very involved in church. It's what happens when your parents lead the church, you fill all the volunteering gaps and so I was already like super involved, but I think the difference would've been my desire to do that rather than just being like, oh, like I need to do this. Was that, oh, I'm excited to serve. And so I think that was a significant difference. And I think I started taking a little bit more kind of leadership stuff on, obviously on a small scale as a 12 year old, but with friends, but also then eventually in a few years time, I helped lead our youth group when I was about 16.
So I think it is more of a mindset change than a life change because I was already invested in and in the church. But yeah, I think my mindset, I was like, oh no, I'm serving out of a desire to rather than thinking my mom and dad told me to, so I probably should. So I think that's probably the biggest switch. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Okay. And 12 years old to? When did you go to Liverpool? When you're 18, 19 years old, somewhere?
Esther Richards: 18.
Matt Edmundson: So what happened in that timeframe? How did you get from where you were to Liverpool?
Esther Richards: Lots. Lots happened. So I actually spent from about the age of 10 or 11 actually until the age of probably about 20, 21 really quite ill with my mental health. So I started off with a lot of anxiety around school stuff. I was, my mom would always say oh, she was a bit of a worrier as a kid, but then when I was probably about 11 I had some issues with friends at school. And so I had like physical illness symptoms, but had no nothing was physically wrong with me.
And the doctor was like, oh, maybe it's an anxiety thing. But I was like, oh, I'm fine. I'm fine. And then that just basically got progressively worse throughout my teenage years. And so developed into major just like general anxiety, but also a lot of social anxiety, really suffered with panic attacks.
And then eventually depression kind of, the depression started probably when I was 16, 17 was when that got really bad. Just powered through it, to be honest. Lots of doctor's appointments that didn't really go anywhere. Some like school counseling that I had which was helpful, but then eventually once, so once I turned 18, they gave me antidepressants and that helped.
But basically just got through high school, essentially. I think a lot of my friends struggling with some similar things. So there was some kind of camaraderie in that I think, and then just found Liverpool and decided to go to Liverpool for Uni. I studied Archeology with Egyptology and I was like, that sounds cool. I'll do that. Didn't really have much of a sense of oh, I really wanna do this because I didn't really see my future. Because I just saw that I was struggling. And so I thought there can't be much of a future for me. So I'll just pick something that sounds interesting. Cause it doesn't really matter what comes next.
But when I came to visit Liverpool with my dad for an open day, had a real gut feeling like this is where I'm supposed to be. And I know that was God speaking, cuz that's often how God speaks to me, is through my gut feelings. But yeah, it wasn't, I didn't hear anything. I was just, I remember I sat in La Costa on the Albert docks waiting for my dad to bring over the drinks and I sat down and said you know what, this is where I'm gonna be. And didn't do very well on my A levels at all, but still got a place. So I figured that's probably also a good sign that's where God wanted me.
Matt Edmundson: So they let you in.
Esther Richards: They let me in. Yeah. Or it's just such a niche course that they let everyone in who applied so they had the number, which is also a possibility. But yeah, that's how I ended up in Liverpool, but just by scraping through, to be honest, all of my exams and things and just, yeah, getting by as much as possible.
Matt Edmundson: Okay. Okay. There's a lot there. If you don't mind, we're gonna dig in. I can't, we can't just push over some of these things.
Esther Richards: No.
Matt Edmundson: So you struggled then a lot with mental health during your teenage years. And you were struggling with mental health through your A levels. And were you struggling with mental health when you were in Liverpool? In the early days as well?
Esther Richards: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Okay. Do you know what kick started it? The anxiety, you said something that happened at about 11, but your mum's always called you a bit of a worrier. Is that, so had you always been anxious as a kid, do you think or was there a trigger point?
Esther Richards: Yeah, so I, I think that I would, so there's like different types of mental health and sometimes mental illness is caused by situations and sometimes it's just to do with the chemicals and your brain and the way that your brain is wired. And so, there's some history of it in my family again for a few generations. So I think in terms of generally, I don't think there's anything that really kickstarted it. I had some, like, when I was about 17, we had some family stuff go down that didn't help, but I was already pretty bad at that point. So that didn't really make that much difference. So yeah, I would say it was just always there. And the doctors would often say to me you will deal with this for your whole life. That's what they told me. They said, you'll be able to get a little bit better and you'll have help, but you'll probably never come off antidepressants. And you'll probably always be in therapy because they were like, this is just how you are. So yeah. So that's what I was living like under having that spoken over me basically as a teenager and into when I moved to Liverpool in my first year of Uni.
Matt Edmundson: Do you remember then being anxious as a kid before you were a teenager? Or is this something that you it's a wrong phrase, but is this something you grew into as a teenager?
Esther Richards: I think I was anxious as a kid. I don't massively remember, but I think I was like a bit of a worrier and I did, I wasn't always the most like adventurous and confident or quite shy, like quite quiet, I think. Maybe my mom might listen to this and go, she was a nightmare. She definitely wasn't quiet. I'm not sure. Never know. I'm gonna find out.
Matt Edmundson: She goes, she was an angel, she was an angel.
Esther Richards: Yeah. Great. But yeah, I always struggled with making friends and things like that and, yeah. So I think I was always, I always was. And then I think. And being a teenager is like hard. I don't, I'm saying this today, actually, weirdly I do not miss being a teenager at all. It was, it's really hard. I think it gets harder as time goes on. And so I think if it's, if there's already a bit of that in you anyway, in how you naturally respond to situations, then being a teenager often just makes it worse because there's a lot to think about and learn and work out. So I think it was there, but was exacerbated by teenage life.
Matt Edmundson: And so when you, so you've got this sort of general anxiety as you call it just a general worries about life, but you use this phrase, social anxiety. What did that look like for you?
Esther Richards: So I think immediately of my prom we had, when I think when I was, I had a weird school system, so I went to middle school and high school, even though it was in England. So I got two proms , but I, senior year I had and I was getting ready for it. And my friends were about to arrive and I was running around the house, like a mad person, trying to get everything together. And I remember standing in my parents' living room, just like breathing really fast. And my mom was like, okay, you okay? Chill up. But I couldn't put like an obvious, rational reason as to why I was feeling anxious, but I knew that people were like, I was gonna be around people and I'm naturally introverted anyway, but that is different to social anxiety, they're two different things. But it was like this sort of being around people just made me anxious and I couldn't explain it.
And it would, when it was bad, it was really bad. It would stop me going out and doing things. Especially when I was in university, there'd be days where I would just stay in my room and sometimes I wouldn't eat. Or would run out to heat something up in the microwave and run back to my room because the fear of seeing other people was so much that it would stop me from leaving the house, but it was never something I could explain. So I couldn't be like, oh, I'm nervous that this would happen because I knew it wasn't rational, which is how, it's something that's like an illness because it's not rational and it's not, you can't like sink it away. It was just there. And it wasn't, I couldn't challenge it.
Matt Edmundson: That all sounds, that sounds pretty horrendous. If I'm honest with you Esther. So how bad did it actually get for you? The whole mental health thing? How low did you actually go?
Esther Richards: It got pretty, pretty bad. So it got worse when I went to university, I think. Again, first year of university can be really hard, new place, new people knew everything. I had already had some, like incidences of self-harm when I was a teenager, but that got worse when I got to university. And I again had this when I was a teenager, but got worse in university where I just was like, there's literally no point me being alive. That was where my mind, my head space was because I was like I don't have that much impact. People probably wouldn't even notice if I stopped living. That was genuinely what my head would tell me.
So I was, I would say it was probably like around the February of my first year of university, it was about three o'clock in the morning. And I called my sister. I called my mom and she didn't pick up cuz it was three o'clock in the morning. And I called my sister and she did pick up. And I was like, I just don't feel safe by myself because I didn't wanna live anymore. But I also, there was this instinct inside of me that also was like, yeah, but you should probably live. So I think there's this really hard to explain. There's this like weird kind of conflicting thing that happens where you're like, I don't wanna be alive, but also I don't wanna die. And it's , it's really hard to explain unless you've been there, but I ended up walking at 3:00 AM to Liverpool, Royal A&E. And my dad bless him. I managed to wake up my parents and my dad got in the car and drove from just south of Birmingham all the way up to Liverpool, three o'clock in the morning to come get me, but sat in A&E for about six hours, cuz they only had one mental health person on staff that night. So they couldn't get around to seeing me. But I remember walking up the road and just like walking up the path towards the Royal and just looking at the path and not letting myself look at the road, cuz I was scared that I would walk straight into it. Because I was like at that point where I was like, I'm done, I just don't wanna. So I was like, just look at the path, just look at the path. Cause I didn't wanna be tempted by the road, which is it's heavy, it happened, it's real. It happens to people. That, that was my lowest point.
And my absolute legend of a dad came and picked me up. He sat with me in A&E for a bit and then they, I'd been there probably for about three or four hours. And they came to me and said, listen, it'll be another six hours. And I was just like, I'm tired. I'm done. I'm exhausted. And I was really afraid of being admitted into hospital. I knew that actually that looking back now, maybe I needed that. I don't know, but also I would've actually been able to say no to that if I had wanted to, but I was really afraid. So I just said, dad, just take me home. Went home and I stayed at home for about a week and then went back to university. But that was, yeah, that was really the lowest that it got. That was the closest, it got to, to anything like really terrible happening.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. So you've answered this question and thank you for sharing Esther, and it's not easy stuff to talk about. I appreciate. And as you were talking, the question that I wrote down in my little, I have a little notebook here where I jot down all my questions as we go along. How did your parents deal with all of this? Because obviously you've moved away from home. The mental health issues have got worse. And your dad. Your dad's obviously struggling with this because he's getting in a car at three o'clock in the morning. Your dad is a legend. And I can, I feel your dad's heart because I have a daughter and you just go, of course, I'm gonna get in the car at three o'clock in the morning. Why will I not? But how did they, how have they dealt with it and how have they supported you throughout this time? I guess is another question.
Esther Richards: Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I was a teenager and I was first struggling with it. I remember them saying to me like, this is still new to us so you're gonna have to be patient with us because we don't know how to deal with this. So they were super honest with me from the start, which is always helpful. And it did, it took me a while to talk to them because of, there's like stigma and everything that comes with it all, but they were great. They would chat to me when I needed chatting to, and I was like, just need to have a conversation or cry or rant or whatever.
I don't, I don't really know how I think. Yeah. I imagine it was really hard cuz I'm their kid. So obviously that is not what they want me to experience. They would never, I don't think they ever really went into detail about how it affected them. I remember when, just before I moved to Liverpool, I remember my mom saying to me you don't have to go like it's okay. You can stay. If you don't think you can cope. And I think part of me I'm quite, I can be quite stubborn so that I was like definitely going off, that was the 18 year old in me. And I think I saw that they really wanted to protect me, but they were amazing because they didn't hold me back. And they trusted that I would, that I knew myself enough to know whether I could do it or not. Which was amazing. And I know that a lot of people don't have that and they really just, we'll just follow your lead, basically. And I remember, this was a bit of a spoiler for later, but I remember when I told my dad that I stopped taking my antidepressants, that I'd come off them. Like I remember his reaction was just awesome. Like he was so excited and he gave me this massive hug and I think then I was like, oh, that's, this has really affected them like a lot, when I saw it afterwards. But yeah, I didn't really know. I think both my parents have experiences with mental health here and there. I think as everyone has, like everyone goes through stuff. But yeah, I think it must have been tricky, but they did a great job. I think they probably don't realize quite how good of a job they did. But yeah, I think they just trust me to know my limit, but because they'd already set up that I could come and talk to them if I needed them.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. That's wonderful. And I imagine there were a lot of prayers behind closed doors is what I imagine was going on a lot, but yeah. Okay, so here you are at your lowest point, right? You've wandered into the hospital, your eyes are focused on the pavement. And obviously you've given us a slight spoiler alert, but before we get into what happened and maybe how God worked with you to come through this, how did you reconcile in your head or did you reconcile it in your head, this idea of mental health, the stigma, and how did God let me get here? This is, cause none of this should add up, right? None of this should equate and I know a lot of people struggle with this type of thing. So how are you at this point dealing with that, the health issues and the theology.
Esther Richards: Yeah. Yeah. That was really hard cuz obviously like growing up with it with, knowing the Bible and knowing that like truly believing that God had the best for me and that God made all the right decisions to then be sat in a position like that. I was like, hang on a minute. This doesn't make any sense. I remember reading. There's a verse in the Bible that says for God did not give me a spirit of fear, but of power, of love, and of a sound mind. And I remember reading that really specific translation of sound mind. And I was like I do not, my mind is anything but sound. Like I remember going to my dad and being like, I just, but I'm, this is not, this does not describe me. I was like, I am fearful. That is what I felt like. And I remember my dad giving me this explanation of it's a promise and we live in this, what we like to call this tension of the now and the not yet, which we like to use to explain things, which doesn't necessarily always help explain things, but it is true.
But actually that's God's promise over us and that we still live in this world. And so we live in the world that has fallen. Even though we are God's people who he's saved and made holy, we live in the world and we live in these bodies. And so it was really hard. And I think that one of the things I remember saying to somebody, probably my dad, was like the best thing about all of this is that I have learned that I definitely actually trust God, because I think when everything's great, when you go especially when you, you're young and you grow up in a Christian family, you think, yeah. Yeah. I think I trust God, but it's never been tested before. Like I just assume that I do, but then I went through something like that bad. And I was like, no, I really trust God. And I could trust that he's doing the right thing. And I can't really attest that to anything like I don't, I'm not like, oh, great. I did a good job cuz I trusted. And I do think that was just off the back of knowing him well and spending time with him, but also the prayer of people around me. Cause Prayer is just so powerful.
But I remember multiple times sitting in my bedroom at home and in halls, like just crying, like absolutely devastating, having a horrible time and just saying, God, I trust you. And just saying that over and over again, because it was literally all that I had. So I think that in some ways being completely without anything else, I was like, I only have God. So I don't believe that he's given me this. I don't believe that he's made me like this. So I have to trust that he'll bring me out of it. And there was just a huge amount of prayer in it as well from myself, from other people, probably more than I even knew about. And I think that was the only way, cuz I couldn't explain it away. Like I couldn't. And I'm sure that there are people that know the theology of it really well. But for me it was like this. I just know that God has me and that he will use it for good because I trust that, cuz it's all I could do. And if I didn't have that, I probably wouldn't be here today because that was the only thing I had to lean on.
I like to joke when I talk to people about the power of prayer, I say you've gotta be careful because God does answer prayer. And when I was a teenager, I loved the song oceans. And there's that line that says, spirit lead me where my trust is without borders. And I really prayed that as a teenager, I was like, yes, come on. I wanna be somewhere where the only thing I can do is trust in you. And I had these visions of being like in amazing places, doing crazy things and like only trust in God and it wasn't what I thought it would look like, but it was an answer to prayer because I had to trust him, cuz it was, he was all that I had.
And so I think as hard as it is sometimes to wrestle with that, but why? We know that God is good regardless. And so we have to lean on that, cuz that is the only thing that is gonna get us through those points in life.
Matt Edmundson: So what does, when you say you had to trust God and interestingly enough, the talk you did for Crowd is what does the Bible say about trusting in God? So if you want to know more, go and check that out. It'll be on the Crowd website, but a great talk by Esther where she talks about this in much more detail, but just a quick summary. What does, what do you mean when you say I had to trust God? And you are, you're sat in your bed, you're in tears. There's nothing else and you're just going, God, I trust you. What did you mean when you were saying that statement?
Esther Richards: I think that it's like giving up the right to understand what's happening, in some ways and it's deciding, I think part of it is realizing that nothing else fits and nothing else works. So as amazing as my parents and my friends and my family were, that they couldn't fix me. And I'd been to numerous doctors and therapists and nothing had fixed it. So I think that was part of it is like none of these things work. So I can't trust those entirely and completely to solve this problem.
But I think that for me, it was thinking I still don't understand this, but I'm just gonna choose to believe that God knows what he's doing and that he knows better than me. And I think that is one of the really hard things to do. And I think we have to do it constantly. It's not like I did it once and now I'm sorted. I have to do it on the daily. But it's yeah, I think it's this thing of going well, I really wish I could understand what's happening, but I don't. And now I'm gonna say that's okay. Because I believe that God does know what's happening and he's more powerful and better than me anyway. So it's probably a better thing that he knows what's going on than I do. And choosing not to lean on my own understanding of the world.
Matt Edmundson: That's a really powerful statement. Yeah. Trusting in God is giving up the right to try and understand what's happening and just go, God, you've obviously got a plan here and that, I think it can sound if I'm honest with you, Esther, if I wasn't a Christian. And I know what you mean having been in those places. But if I wasn't a Christian, it can sound a bit like I've given up the fight. Do you know what I mean? I'm just going like this and it's like case, whatever will be thing. If God wills it and all that sort of stuff and it can sound a bit like that. But I don't think that's what you are saying. Is it?
Esther Richards: No, I think, yeah, I know what you mean. It does sound like, oh whatever happens. I think that part of it is, there's a hope in it. Because it wasn't just me sitting back and going, all right, what happens. That was me on the day before my wedding, I was like, at this point, what happens. But at that point it wasn't that. It was, I guess there's an element of what's gonna, happen's gonna happen because God's on it. But there's a hope in it of what happens will happen, but it will be better than what is right now. And it will get better because what God has in mind for me is the best thing. And God's plan and purpose for me is the best plan and purpose for me that could exist. So it's not a pessimistic, all right, whatever happens, but it's a, actually God has this and I'm gonna let him do that. Yeah, I think that's probably how I would come back from. Yeah, it's not. And also I think that that actually, that's true freedom because the world likes to tell us that freedom is getting to choose whatever we want do, but actually Jesus means that our freedom s saying, I don't have to make these decisions. Like, it's not on me to get it. It's not on me to get better. I'd have to make sure I go to the right doctor and make sure that I do this, that and the other. Yeah, I'm gonna try. And I still went to all of my appointments and I still did all those things cuz it's still important and valuable, but I was trusting in God for the outcome. And that was where the freedom came from because it's not on me anymore. I don't have to get it right. Cuz God's doing it for me.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. Wow. That is what we call in the trade a mic drop moment right there. That's fantastic. So here you are at Uni, life's bad. Your dad's sat there with you at A&E. You go back home for a week. That's your lowest point your on, and I've heard what you said now about trusting God, just your attitude and your belief and your desire in that . Is that the point? Let me rephrase the question. When did it turn around and how did it start to turn around for you?
Esther Richards: When I was in A&E, I can't remember who it was, either like a mental health practitioner or somebody like that came and said, look, it's gonna be six hours. You might just wanna go home. They recommended that I get an appointment with the young people's advisory service in town, in Liverpool. And that was that. Then I went home and I put it off for a while because I was just like, I don't even really know, never heard of that before or whatever . But then I was like, bit as my mom actually just kept saying, have you done it yet? Have you called them yet? Have you emailed them yet? Have you tried it out yet? In the way that only a mother can do in the best way. And so I did it because she was right, obviously, cuz she's my mom. She's always right.
Matt Edmundson: And I just, sorry, I just need to stop you right there, mom, if you're listening, I will send, if you just send me your email, I will send you that clip. You can have that for life and just play it on the TV whenever Esther comes through the house. That's brilliant. Sorry I interrupted you. I was talking to mum there. Esther you carry on.
Esther Richards: Yeah, so I went to the young person's advisory service and I had joined a support group, which I found immensely stressful because I was very socially anxious and I had to go and talk to strangers about what I was feeling, which I hated. But I went and I managed to get some one-to-one therapy through them as well. And interestingly, I always found, people would always say the waitlist is really long. Like you're gonna be on the wait list for a year and then I'd pray and ask God to shorten the waitlist. And it would be, my waiting time would be at least half what they said every single time. So that was always very cool. So I had some, once one therapy was on different medication.
And one of the, I think one of the like biggest moments for me that I can look back on and say that was a real turning point was when I went on a mission trip with the students in Frontline to Romania in the summer of 2018. And within that group of people, it was actually a lot of people I didn't know, my housemate had come with me who wasn't a Christian, but she had a great time and it was great.
Matt Edmundson: Your housemate who wasn't a Christian went on a mission?
Esther Richards: Yeah, she went twice actually. It was awesome. She's great. Okay. Yeah. And within that group of people, I didn't know very many of them very well. But I'd felt really yeah, I need to do this. This is a thing I've always wanted to do. I'm not gonna let my brain stop me cuz it had stopped me on going on other cool, exciting trips. So I was like, I'm doing this one. So I went and this group of people didn't know me as someone who was anxious and depressed, but so many of my other friends knew that I had all this going on and this group of people didn't know. That's not how they saw me. They saw me as someone who loved Jesus, who was leading, who was a friend, who was fun, who was enjoyable to be around. And I think like God showed me a large part of my actual identity during that trip of not this person who just is an anxious person, but who is actually fun and is like nice to be around and nice to spend time with. And also is someone that is loved by God and other people.
And that was a really big thing. Like I knew I was loved by God, cuz I was like that's a fact. And I knew that my parents loved me cuz I was like, that's part of their job, but I was like, other people don't really need to. They probably don't. But on that trip I experienced other people's love for God and to me and I was like, oh, this is what this could look like. And so I think that was a massive turning point and really just increased my confidence cuz also we just had an awesome time. And from that moment, things just changed. Things just started to change. I carried on in therapy. I came off my medication in December of 2018 and I had my last session of therapy in January, 2019.
But I think all through that summer, and then that term of my second year of university, I just had the most amazing community of people around me who loved me for who God had made me to be and who didn't just know me as the anxious person who probably won't turn up because she's too afraid. And it was like God was using these people around me to remind me who I was and to kind of those things that had been spoken over me, when doctors have said, you are never gonna get better, this is something you'll live with. I'd taken that and said this is who I am, but actually it wasn't who I was. And God was saying no, this is who I say you are. And look, these people already know it, so you need to catch up, basically. And I think, and that's when it started to turn around. So I think, God uses all sorts of things and everyone's story will look different. And I had often prayed for an instant healing. I was like, I've done, like I'm done with this. It's been like a decade. I've had enough. Tired, just sort out. Cause I really, I believed that God could do it. I was like, I know you do things like this to people, just do it. But now looking back, I'm really grateful that it wasn't an instant fix because I have learned so much about God's faithfulness and God's goodness, and about myself and who God's made me to be through that process that even though it was really rough, it's been really formative to who I am. But that in itself still doesn't actually define me because God defines me regardless of my experience of life.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah.
Esther Richards: But yeah, I think that's when it started to turnaround was like that second half of 2018. And yeah, God just, I would still say it was a miracle because everyone said that it would never happen, but it was like a slow burn miracle. Yeah. But God used the community and the resources that He'd already placed around me. So He'd known who was gonna be my counselors. He'd known who was gonna be my doctors and he'd given them the right things to say and prescribe. And he'd placed that all there for me before I even knew that I needed it to help me get through that part of my life.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. Wow. So your last therapy session was January, 2019, which at the time of recording is three years ago. How's the last three years been? Do you feel like you are it's, you've got stronger and stronger or has it been a bit more up and down? Have there still been struggles and fights or how have you found that?
Esther Richards: Both, to be honest, I think that I have got stronger and stronger, but it's also been up and down. So it's been a weird three years because there's been a pandemic and I think that kind of, bashed everyone's brains a little bit. So there was that and, but I, my general. I would never say at any point that any of my major symptoms have ever returned, I would never say I've really struggled with my mental health. There have been other things I've had to work through. So when you go through something for that long it does leave marks and patterns of behavior. So I spent so much of my teenage years just trying to get through and survive, there were lots of things I just never learned how to do, or didn't remember, I've got like really bad memory of my teenage years because my brain was just like, not switched on for it.
So I had retrain myself to socialize, which I'm now having to do again after lockdown, but aren't we all? And I think that, there's still a lot to learn from it and I think I am still learning and, life is not always easy and sometimes I have moments where I'm like, oh gosh, this has been hard. Or I notice things. But I think part of that is because of just the way I respond to things. So like when I was talking about being a kid that I just responded to things in a certain way, like I think that to some extent I still do that, but it never ever goes past a healthy level of worry and anxiety.
So, I don't remember the last time I had a panic attack or got so anxious, I couldn't move or couldn't leave the house. And, I have days where I don't feel great, but not anymore than a regular person does. And I think for me, getting better from mental illness doesn't look like every single day is perfect because actually that just doesn't exist. It's just not how life works.
Matt Edmundson: It's just not life. Is it?
Esther Richards: Exactly. But actually what it looks like is being able to deal with that in a healthy way and not letting it, see if I'd had a bad day, say four years ago, I had a bad day, that would've affected my month, whereas I have a bad day and I get up the next morning and carry on as if it's fine. Because it just doesn't have that impact on me anymore. Yeah. So I think that's where I am now. And there's, I think part of it is trying to discover now where some of that came from. Now that I've come far enough, I've done enough healing and work to think right, now I can actually look and see where that came from. So that's where I'm at about to start that. And I think, I talk about, oh yeah, I finished therapy in January, 2019 and that's amazing. Actually I think therapy is great and I think everyone should do it because I think it's awesome. But I think so actually there's nothing wrong with that at all. So it, I don't, I'm always cautious cause I don't wanna celebrate finishing that because I don't think it's like you complete it and then you carry on. Cause it's not really the nature of it. So my plan actually is to go back to therapy at some point soon because I think that it's great to unpack that and just make sure that I'm still, that any trauma from that hasn't left the mark that I've ignored or that is the problem.
And I don't think it is, but a lot of time has passed and lots of things have happened and it's good to, it's good for everyone to keep up on their mental health, especially if they've got a history with it. And if therapy is something that's successful to you, then it's a great thing to do. Actually, regardless of where you're at. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: That's very wise council. It's interesting. You mentioned about, you know, there are scars. You've been healed, but there are scars and I'm reminded of that sort of episode where Jesus is raised from the dead. And Thomas says unless I put my finger in his side, I'm not gonna believe a thing and I'm a lot like Thomas, Do you know what I mean? Anyway and Jesus is like, he was healed. He was in a resurrected body, but he still had scars from the crucifixion. You could still touch the holes. You could still touch the scars on his hand. And I think scars is an interesting phrase. Isn't it? We can experience the healing of God. Quite often there are scars left and we have to understand that. And I think it's great that you do and that you are pressing into that with God and going, okay, God what are these marks? What are these scars that I need to be aware of? And being with.
And it sounds like Esther, one of the things that you talked a lot about was discovering your identity, who God made you to be . And we talk about this a lot in the church, to find out your identity, who you are in God, but what are some of the key, if I can use a Christian word, revelations, what are some of the key things that you've discovered about your identity that just really make your heart sing?
Esther Richards: I think. Great question. I love it. Funnily enough, we did, so I'm the student worker now for Frontline. And last night our student hub was about identity and one of our students led a session on who we are and it was awesome. So this is great. I should, gotta try and remember it all now. I think that one of the things that I love is that I'm a daughter and I think that's interesting because I have fantastic parents who have been very present. So it's not I feel like I have a gap to fill in that sense, but the word daughter has always affected me because I have never, ever doubted that my parents are fully there for me and for for me in every sense of the word. So I think it carries a lot of weight for me that God's said you are my daughter as well. And actually that God loves me as a father more than my earthly dad does.
And so I think, and I know like a lot of people feel very differently about that whole concept of parenthood with God and fathership, but I think that that always had a really big impact on me because there's something so intimate about that word and like precious that fathers just like cradle their daughters. That's how I imagine it would like wings, like in the Bible, wings of an Eagle and being under shade and that sort of stuff. And I think that, so that's always had a bit of an impact on me. And I think the concept that God like just knows us so well, it's not that we are just like all this big group and he's yeah, those are my people. But he's each and every single one of you, I know you, I know the hairs on your head. I knit you together in your mother's womb, made you as individuals so specifically and completely that he didn't make a mistake.
And I would often think I'm like, and I was ill and I was like, I'm broken or I'm a bit wonky. That was the thing I used to say. When I was trying to make light of it, I was like, oh, I'm a bit wonky. And I think actually God's no, because I don't, God doesn't make mistakes. And life happens and things are hard, but actually the things you go through are not the things that define you, because God has said that you are chosen, that you are wonderfully and fearfully made, that you are completely enough and that you are worth dying for.
And if God says it, then it's true. And so actually doesn't matter what doctors, family, friends say about you. They could be nice things. They could be great things, but actually what God says about you is true and that's that you are chosen and complete and enough. And that thing of having a spirit of power and love and of a sound mind, and that just because I was afraid for a very long time does not mean that I have a spirit of fear because that's not how God created me. He has said that I have a spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind. So therefore I do, because that's what God said over me. Not anyone else.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's fantastic. That's such a brilliant story and I, again, thank you for sharing and I've loved hearing every minute of it. And I, as we come into the end here, Esther, one of the things I would love for you to do, you've touched on it a couple of times. I would love for you just to touch on the stigma of antidepressants. Because I've seen this in the church a little bit, I don't think different people have different stories about it and I just think it's probably worth just putting a finger on that a little bit, if you don't mind.
Esther Richards: Yeah, sure. So I started taking them when I was 18. It was a really weird experience because I basically went to the doctor and I was like, look, I'm still struggling. I've been coming for years. I got lots of like informational leaflets about how to sleep better, which was just never helpful. But literally I turned 18 and they were like, here you go. I've handed over. I think it's probably just easier to prescribe antidepressants to legal adults. And I remember taking it home and telling my mom about it. And my mom and dad were really cautious. They were like, they were a bit like, oh, I don't know. I don't know if this is a good idea. I think I was at a point where I was like nothing else is working right now, so I'm just gonna try it.
And I think my parents now would say that it was the right thing to do because, at least my experience of it was that it gave me enough clarity of mind to be able to understand what I was thinking. And I think that my head before was so heavy and clouded that I would never have been able to start working through what I needed to work through to start to get better. And I wouldn't have been able to hear things properly or remember I couldn't retain any information. And once I started taking those, I remember things much more clearly from that point. I think that, so I'm also super asthmatic. Like my lungs are terrible. And I take an inhaler every single day and I have done for most of my life since I was about two years old. And no one has any issue with that because my lungs have an issue. So I take a medication and it helps me breathe. My mind had an issue. So I took a medication and it helped me breathe. And, for me, I see that the same. And I know that it makes people nervous because it can, it affects your mind, but God gave us resources and knowledge. And, I think that, I don't think they're right for everybody. And that is sometimes doctors will be like, let's wait, let's try something else. And it's not always a, let's just run to that and just take that and nothing else. I think it's a two-pronged approach. You have to take those and do the therapy and talking and the work and the prayer and all of that. So it's not a, it's not a one fix fits all solution. But I think that as the church, if we are okay with other medications, it needs to be the same for mental health because people get too afraid to speak up about their mental health at church. And we need to be better at that because people are suffering when they don't need to be.
And God says in the Bible that we are to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. And so we have to do that. And the way that we do that is by speaking openly about things and having those conversations, even when they're hard yeah, I think that it's fine. I think that if you're taking them properly and safely under doctor's advice and all that sort of stuff, then it's fine and it's helpful and it's needed when it's needed. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Great. Yeah, my experience with antidepressants, not that I've personally taken them. So I'm not speaking from a personal experience here, but having counseled a fair few folks over the years it tends to be, like you say, when you use antidepressants in conjunction with other things, so the clarity that that brings your thinking to use that clarity to, as the Bible says, to renew your mind, to start to build the healthy thought patterns around identity, to get involved in community, to get out of a position of loneliness, to get involved in church. And do those things that you've talked about that have obviously so helped you I think is wonderful.
So Esther, you are an absolute legend. You've come through this quite horrific illness and like we said at the start, you've been married a month. A whole month, and a whole month and well done. As you sit here in your, what, early mid twenties, somewhere around there, what's your thinking, hopes, plans for the future?
Esther Richards: I dunno. It's the short answer. I, so I'm currently doing the student work at Frontline and absolutely loving it. I'm not a person that has always known what I wanted to do or anything like that. I think that I'm just really excited to see what God's going to use me for. Because I, yeah. I just think that he has amazing and exciting plans for everybody and obviously they all look different, but there is, there's definitely a certain amount of nervousness in not knowing what comes next. And I think, there's probably a lot of people that feel like that, especially coming around exam season for teenagers and things.
But I think that there's also a certain amount of excitement that you can have in not really knowing what you wanna do, because it's like it's completely wide open for God to do whatever he wants. So right now sticking where we are until God tells us to go do something else. But yeah just excited and I think I feel very much on the start, at the start still. At the beginning of getting to know God more. I know there's so much that I don't know. And I think I'm really excited to just learn more of God and more about myself as well. And just of what he's got in store. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: So one of the things which is lovely and I'm sitting here listening to you talk and I'm in my internal dialogue is, this is lovely because what you have just shared is I dunno what my future holds, but I know it's gonna be good. And I'm excited about it. If I rewind the tape, not that this is recorded on tape, but you know what I mean? If I rewind the tape, I'm old school, to the start of the conversation where you talked about how in your teenage years, and I wrote the phrase down, you didn't see your future. And that was a really, and what's lovely is now you see a future. You don't know what's in it. You don't know, you don't know what it's gonna be, it's safe. Yeah. And you are excited about it. And I think that is lovely. I can't think of another word to describe it. I just think it's wonderful sat here, listening to you talk that actually you have hope and you have future and that's amazing.
It goes without saying, of course, if you are listening to this and you are struggling with mental health and you need, you wanna reach out to somebody, church is a great place to get involved. If you're not already in church, you can reach out to us at Crowd Church if we can help you. Just head over to the website, www.crowd.church, we would love to hear from you. You can WhatsApp us. You can contact us via the website. Do get stuck into community. Church community is wonderful. And like I said, we would love to hear from you if we can help, but Esther, it has been an absolute privilege to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here. And just being so tightly vulnerable and honest, but also, inspiring and encouraging and just lovely and wonderful. Thank you from me to you. God bless you.
Esther Richards: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Matt Edmundson: No, it's been great. It's been wonderful. Big shout out to Esther for being here, if you would like to hear more Crowd stories, you can check our other record on our website, I keep saying it crowd.church, you can head over to. Actually Esther, you may not realize this, but we have, I've recorded an interview with Anna Kettle who's also been on Crowd, who was also a student worker. And it's not that everybody I know was a student worker Frontline. I just want to, just wanna clarify that right here at the start. Just as a coincidence that both you and Anna were, mentioned a little bit about being a student worker. But yeah, you can check out more Crowd stories on our website, make sure you like and subscribe to the podcast. And also to the livestream every Sunday, 6:00 PM. It'd be great to meet you. Great to connect with you if we don't, haven't already done. So from myself, from Esther, thank you so much for being with us and bye for now.
So there you have it. What a fantastic story. My very huge thanks to Esther for joining me today. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast from, because we have some great stories about faith and courage from everyday people lined up and I don't want you to miss any of them. No, I don't. Make sure you subscribe and also while you're there, why not subscribe to the Crowd Church livestream as well? Come and say hi in the comments. Join us every Sunday, 6:00 PM here in the UK. That's 1:00 PM Eastern time. And if you need help figuring out what that means for you in your country, go to our website, www.crowd.church. There's a little link and it will tell you the time for you.
And just in case, no, one's told you yet today, you, my friend are awesome. Utterly. Awesome. Yes, you are. It's just the way that God's made you and it's a burden we just have to bear. Yes, it is. And that's okay. We're okay with that. Now what's the story is a podcast which has been produced by Crowd Church. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, George McCague, Estella Robin, and Tim Johnson. Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson. And if you would like to read the transcript from today's show, or even view the show notes, find the links and all that sort of stuff, just head over to crowd.church, our website, where you can also sign up for our newsletter.