23: Surviving Abuse
Today’s Guest: Sadaf Beynon
Meet Sadaf, our podcast producer who's also a super-mom. She works tirelessly behind the scenes throughout the week making sure each of our podcasts are delivered with excellence. With a Master's degree in Business under her belt, she's got the smarts to match her creativity. But when the headphones come off, it's all about family. Sadaf is a devoted mom to two amazing boys and loves nothing more than a good hangout with family and friends. Her life is a beautiful juggling act of producing top-notch podcasts and creating priceless memories with her loved ones. Above all, she marches to the beat of her faith. As an unwavering ambassador for Christ, her life is an inspiring testament of love and belief that echoes both in her work and at home.
Here’s a summary of this week’s story:
Sadaf grew up in Pakistan and became a Christian at the age of six while attending an international missionary school. She went on to do her undergrad in Canada and then eventually the UK for her Masters. She has been settled in the UK for the 17 years.
She shares how being in an abusive relationship with a Christian fiancé isolated and confused her. What began with emotional abuse and coercion later turning physical. She reveals that she felt trapped and ashamed, and blamed herself for the abuse. Her family eventually became aware of the situation and helped her to open up about it and she eventually found clarity and value in herself through prayer and was able to end the relationship.
Sadaf had to go through a healing process after ending her toxic relationship. Her family played a crucial role in supporting her and helping her move forward. She eventually moved away and received counseling while also relying on the Holy Spirit for guidance. Forgiveness, both towards her ex-partner and herself, was a key part of her journey.
Her advise is to speak up and talk to trusted friends and family when in an abusive situation. It's important to forgive oneself and take responsibility for one's actions, rather than getting caught up in the "what if" questions, in order to move towards healing and liberation.
She reconciled her experiences of abuse with her belief in a good God and explains that going through hard times can strengthen one's faith and make them more aware of God's goodness, and that God never promised an easy life, but his grace is sufficient.
Sadaf and her siblings experienced a major challenge in their lives with the sudden passing of their parents, who were instrumental in their faith, and had to deal with the grief of both a long-term illness and a sudden loss. While they have processed the events, they continue to cling to the hope that they will see their parents again one day.
Sadaf's one message is to be a student of the Bible and to study it in order to know God's character and truth, and to adapt to different seasons in life while maintaining that discipline.
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Sadaf: I opened up this card and She had written these beautiful words to me, and the five that stuck out where you are so valuable to God. Mm-hmm. And, I was just stuck on them. I, I read these words and I couldn't think anything past them.
And the more I, found myself dwelling on them, the more clear it became to me that the Lord has a purpose for my life. Yeah. And it's not this, I am valuable to him. got something more than this.
Matt: Welcome to the What's the Story podcast. My name is Matt Edmundson and today we are chatting with this beautiful lady over here, Sadaf. How you doing?
Sadaf: I'm doing well. Hi Matt
Matt: Good. So we're gonna talk about Sadaf's story. We're gonna get into that a whole lot more, uh, in today's podcast.
This podcast is brought to you by Crowd Church. Crowd is an online church. Uh, so if you're looking for a new church, an online church, you're not quite sure what church it's all about, come check us out at www.crowd.church.
So Sadaf, let's get into this because it's fair to say that you and I have known each other a little while, and if you are, uh, watching.
The podcast dear. Uh, listener, you'd be a viewer. You wouldn't you? I suppose if you are watching it, um, you'll see we're in our new studio, uh, which we are still, we're still working the kinks out too, actually. Um, and so yeah, we thought we'd try it in the studio. You are the Guinea pig.
Sadaf: Yay.
Matt: Which is awesome. And for those of you who don't know, Sadaf, behind the scenes is the show's producer. Uh, and so you have this wonderful title. In fact, you produce all our podcasts, don't you?
Sadaf: Mm-hmm. I sure do.
Matt: Yeah. Keeps you outta trouble, right? Yeah. Keeps you outta trouble. So Sadaf is the show producer and she produces all the shows. And so we thought, well, let's get Sadaf to be a little bit of a Guinea pig, but it turns out you've actually got one heck of a story as well. So, Thank you for coming on the podcast and doing this.
Sadaf: No, thank you for having me.
Matt: Oh no, it's great. So you got your cup of tea? I do. You ready?
Sadaf: I'm ready.
Matt: Alright, let's do this. It's weird doing it in person, right? Because normally when we do these podcasts, um, we're, uh, like in different, I mean, it's over the web, right?
Mm-hmm. And we just have this split screen, so it's a little bit more interesting doing it in person. We'll see how it gets on. I'm trying to remember to use the camera switcher, so we go to different cameras as well. So, yeah, all exciting. Anyway, let's get into the story. So how long have you and I known each other?
Sadaf: Four, five years? Four years.
Matt: Four years. I feel like it's longer.
Sadaf: Feels much longer. It feels much longer.
Matt: It feels like we've known each other a very long time. I dunno. 40 years maybe. Something like that. Um, no, it's true, isn't it? So we've known each other for a while. Yep. And you've worked with us here and it's great and, uh, it's been awesome.
But how did you, how did you sort of become a Christian? What was your journey of faith? What was that story?
Sadaf: Okay, so, um, I grew up in Pakistan and um, as most people know, it's a predominantly Muslim country. Mm-hmm. So my parents made the decision to send myself and my siblings to an international boarding school, which was run by missionaries.
So, um, it was, it was at the age of six at boarding school mm-hmm. That I became a Christian
Matt: around the age of six. Yeah. So really quite young.
Sadaf: Yeah, very young. And, um, it was an assembly on a Wednesday and the teacher was telling a story that, um, made me feel quite convicted that, you know, I'm not gonna get to heaven on the coattails of my parents' faith.
Okay. Or of my teachers, and I needed to make a personal decision. Mm-hmm. So after the assembly, I, I went and spoke to her. She prayed with me and I decided I wanted the Lord to live in my heart.
Matt: So this was at six? Mm-hmm. And this was at school? A school assembly. So this was a Christian school?
Sadaf: It was, yeah.
Matt: In a predominantly Muslim country.
Sadaf: It was, yeah.
Matt: So did your parents deliberately send you to this school? Were they Christian?
Sadaf: They, they were, yeah. Um, and yes, that was a, a decision they made because, um, if we went to a Muslim school, we would have to learn, um, islamia, which is just, you know, all about Islam and Yeah.
And all our education would've been based on that. And they just didn't want that for us. And they felt we were young, we were, impressionable, and they wanted to keep us, um, on the straight and narrow.
Matt: Did that, did that work? Yeah. Did that actually work? I dunno, that's a conversation that we could maybe get into, right?
Sadaf: Yeah, we'll get into that. Um, no, I dunno. Um, yeah.
Matt: So this is when you were six years old? Mm-hmm. So have you looked back since, or is is it always been like, um, no. You, you are a Christian. You've always been a Christian.
You've never sort of looked back, you've always sort of moved on from that moment.
Sadaf: Yeah. Always moved on and you know, just in life as it is in life, you'll learn through different experiences and different things happen. So the Lord is always working on you. So you are, um, and you struggle with life and then the Lord shows up and then, you know, it just keeps going from strength to strength.
Matt: So here's the thing. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, you're from Pakistan. Mm-hmm. You don't sound like you're from Pakistan. So, um, uh, what, what's that story?
Sadaf: Um, so again, at that school it was, um, international missionary school. Mm-hmm. And so we all came out sounding like this. Um, there was, there was lots of kids from all over the world, um, like literally, you know, um, Australia, New Zealand, all over Europe, Americas, and um, yeah, all sounded like this at the end of it. Okay. I've never lost my accent.
Matt: It's funny cuz um, your kids around. Uh, you, you guys were around Monday night, wasn't it? Mm-hmm. You were in the house and, um, I noticed Hudson's picking it up. Yeah, right. He is picking up the American sort of, uh, can I say American or is it, is it Canadian? Cuz you like to identify with Canada more than America, right?
Sadaf: Yes, I do. Yes, that is right. Um, let's say Canadian, let's go with that.
Matt: So what's the link to Canada. Why Canadian?
Sadaf: So, um, because we went to this missionary school, we weren't able to do any further education in Pakistan cuz we would've needed the Islamia aspect to our education, right. So we all then went different ways around the globe. Um, I ended up in Canada and, uh, did my, um, undergrad there.
Mm-hmm. And yeah, I was there for about seven, eight years.
Matt: Okay. And then, um, we're at the time of recording, we're in sunny Liverpool and it is actually sunny today, which is quite unusual. So what was the, the, the journey from Canada to Liverpool. So you've done your degree in Canada? Yeah, I did. How did you get over here?
Sadaf: So I did my undergrad, um, in Canada, and then I came to England primarily to do, um, my masters. Mm-hmm. But there was a good few years in between. The two degrees. Yeah.
Matt: Wow. And how long have you been in the UK now?
Sadaf: Um, I think about 16, 17 years. I think. You're just not sure. And I'm not sure. I don't do numbers, so I'm just like,
Matt: I don't care. I really don't care right now. I'm just here. My life is here. Um, no. So what I, that sounds, you know. Obviously grown up in Pakistan. I grew up in Darby, so can't empathize at all. Um, very different upbringings. Um, but here we are sort of working together. It's funny how that all works. Yeah. Isn't it? From different parts of the globe.
So throughout your life then, what's sort of, um, what has been some of the big challenges that you've had to face mm-hmm. Um, throughout that globe trotting journey?
Sadaf: So many, you know, I think the Lord knows just the perfect balance of blessings in someone's life and buffetings. And, he's allowed both, in my life to stretch me and to mature me and to make me more like him. I'm nowhere close you well know, but, um,
Matt: closer than me probably,
Sadaf: but, you know, um, but yeah, so many, um, I guess probably one that we've, um, yeah, that's probably stands out as a personal one, um, is I was in an abusive relationship mm-hmm.
And, um, on, and we were engaged and the, the abuse actually got, um, worse as, as well when we got engaged, it, it got worse at, at the, and it became more physical at that point. Mm-hmm. And, um, up until then, I think it was always there. I just didn't recognize it. Um, so there was like, you know, the, the emotional side of things, which I just didn't realize that that was abuse.
Right. In that sense. Um, so like, he was, um, quite a smooth talker. So if something didn't feel right and I brought it up, it was more like, well, you know, it's actually you who's seeing it wrong. I, this is really what's going on. So I never really, I could never put my finger on it. And then, so, um, Yeah, it, um, yeah.
Matt: That's a, I mean, just listening to you talk, that's a, that's a pretty hard thing to say, isn't it? Um, here you are, I assume your now ex-fiance, let's be clear that obviously that you, you broke that off, but, um, he was a Christian. This was a Christian relationship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so here you are in a relationship with a Christian, um, but that relationship is abusive. Mm-hmm. Um, how did you, how did you reconcile that?
Because I suppose if you are, if you are in a relationship with a Christian, you expect it maybe to be safe. I don't know if that's naive on my part. Do, you know, what I mean or, um, So, yeah. How did you, how did you reconcile that in your head? You know that this is a Christian relationship mm-hmm. But it seems to be on the abusive side.
Sadaf: Yeah. Um, before I answer your question, I'm just gonna give you a bit more on, on that. Like, so in that whole process of, um, being in that relationship, um, what it did for me was it created this, um, like, it stripped away my confidence. It created self doubt in me. It isolated me from people who were closest to me.
So I think that kind of made, put me in a position where I really didn't have anyone speaking into my life. And, um, or me being able to reach out. There were so many secrets by this point. You know, there's so many, like different things that have happened and there's shame involved and you don't wanna tell people. And, and then
Matt: it's worth saying you were quite close to your family. Right. So when you.. Headphones are falling out. So when you talk about being isolated, to put that in some kind of context, that's quite, that's quite, um, sobering, uh, in the context of the, the quite vibrant, I suppose, relationship you had with your family.
Yeah. Especially your sisters, right?
Sadaf: That's right. Yeah. And we all lived, my sister, myself and my brother, we all lived in, um, the one place as well. We lived together. So yeah, it was, um, did feel very isolating for all of us. They, they felt, um, separated from me. Mm-hmm. Um, and, um, as, as the date for the wedding got closer and my, my parents arrived, my other sibling, uh, arrived.
Um, I don't know whether it was the tension that just got, you know, it just grew and grew to a point where something had to give. Mm-hmm. And um, It just went from bad to worse suddenly the whole, um, abusive side of things. And, um, it, I guess in some ways I'm thankful for that because it brought me out of it, it brought everything to a head.
But, um, yeah, it was, it was painful. And at that time, what it did was it created this utter confusion in my head. Like you're talking about reconciling. And it was just like on one side, I've got devoted family, um, you know, friends who know me and are praying for me and they know the situation Yeah. And are wanting to see me safe.
And then there's, on the other side, there was him who was telling me that I'm the reason for the breakdown of what's going on. Wow. So I just, um, I felt caught and I, I didn't, um, as much as I wanted so badly to make the right decision, wanted so badly to be in the Lord's Will, um, that was always the case, but I was just confused and that confusion just grew over time.
Um, and, um, I remember distinctly, um, I just felt like it was just too much. I couldn't, I couldn't hold the two, I couldn't hold everything together. Hmm. So, um, I told my family I was going out. I just needed to be alone and spent some time. So I grabbed my Bible, I brought, I grabbed my notebook and as I was leaving, my mom handed me a card that one of her friends had given for me.
I have my name on it. I just, took it. Mm-hmm. And I was driving around aimlessly for a bit, ended up down by the river, and I have this habit of writing my prayers down. So I was just emptying myself onto these pages. It was covered with, this great mixture of tears and ink. I don't even know what was said in the end, but it was just, I emptied myself out.
Yeah. And, um, and then I opened up this card and it was, we referred to her as Aunt Ruth. Mm-hmm. She, um, She had written these beautiful words to me, and the five that stuck out where you are so valuable to God. Mm-hmm. And, um, I was just stuck on them. I just felt like I couldn't move. I, was, I, I read these words and I couldn't think anything past them.
And I think the more I, found myself dwelling on them, the more clear it became to me that the Lord has a purpose for my life. Yeah. And it's not this, I am valuable to him. He's, got something more than this. Yeah. And for me to keep walking down this path is only gonna lead to more destruction and it's gonna continue to isolate me from my family.
And, um, it's not, it's not of him. Mm-hmm. And I, um, just had this new resolve. I knew exactly what I now needed to do. The confusion was gone. It was just like this cloud had lifted and I got back in the car I drove to, um, The, um, the apartment, oh, sorry. The flat that we were gonna be, um, living in together after the wedding.
And, um, I waited there and, um, he came and I wanted to do him, I wanted to do him the courtesy of telling him first. Cuz there was this whole confusion about, you know, um, it's your fault that it, everything's breaking down you're siding Yeah. With the family. And so I wanted to say, look, I've made the decision and I'm telling you first no one else knows this.
And um, and when I told him, he, he scoffed at me, he mocked me. He told me that, um, without him I am nothing. Wow. And I will never amount to anything. Um, and by this time, these words were now, they just didn't resonate at all. Mm-hmm. They were just bouncing right off. I just didn't care anymore. Mm-hmm. And um, so I took my engagement ring off, gave it to him, walked out, he followed me.
Um, and I was able to get to my car, lock the doors, get in, um, and um, yeah, he was not happy and I drove away. Then after that we had, um, um, I just cut off all communication at that point. So there was no communication with him and I, there was always a buffer. There was always someone in between, a go between and yeah, that's how I reconciled it.
Matt: That's a heck of a story. Yeah, it's, I mean, so much to ask. Um, so, so, but firstly, thank you for sharing cause I don't, I can't imagine these things are easy to talk about.
Sadaf: No, they're not. But you know, it's an opportunity to talk about what the Lord has done, so.
Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And also I think it's, um, it's one of those things isn't there, where as, as harsh and horrible as it sounds, you're not gonna be the only one that was in that mm-hmm. Kind of situation. Right. So, If it's okay, let's dig into this a little bit more, because were you aware that the relationship you were in, or I suppose maybe not were, when did you become aware that this was an abusive relationship? Because it, it seems like, um, the way you're talking is the abuse didn't start off physical.
It, it, it was more mental, more coercion, more sort of building up a bit like the frog in boiling water. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? You don't see it. You, you, something's not quite right, you're not quite sure, but you don't, there's a clarity which is maybe not there. So how, at what point did you come to the realization this is, uh, this is not right, this is an abusive relationship?
Sadaf: Um, I think the very first time that he struck me mm-hmm. Was, um, was, was that, but it was. Um, and I know I should have gone running and told someone and done something about it. Hindsight is wonderful, but I think I just felt so trapped at this point. So many other things that happened in before, um, emotionally that, um, I, I think I felt like I would've, um, there were so many secrets to hold together.
Yeah. And, um, yeah, I, there was shame as, as well. That was probably one of the bigger things.
Matt: On your part?
Sadaf: Yeah, yeah.
Matt: In in what sense?
Sadaf: Um, that I had, that things weren't right. And they hadn't been right. But I was, I had stuck to it. Mm-hmm. And I hadn't spoken up and I hadn't gotten out.
Matt: Wow. Yeah. So the first time this guy, um, Hits you. What? I mean, I, I get angry thinking about this Do, you know what I mean? Just, just, I dunno. Maybe this is the way I was brought up, but I'm, what was that like, what was, you say that you were sort of trapped in shame, um, and you realize on one hand this is abusive, but on the other hand, you, you can't get out.
What, what's going through your head at this point?
Sadaf: Um, I think confusion was probably a big one. Um, like, is this really happening? Is this actually happening? Um, why is it happening? Why has it gotten to this point? What have I done? Mm-hmm. Um, and how could I have made, how could I have, how, how could I have avoided the situation for us?
Um, because I was told a lot that a lot of it had to do with with me. That if I wasn't this way right, if I didn't say these things, such and such wouldn't happen.
Matt: So you are taking the blame for this? Yeah. Yeah. So he hits you and you, you are blaming yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so how long did that go on for?
Sadaf: Um, probably about, so yeah, about seven, eight months. Wow. And it just got like, progressively worse.
Matt: And did he, did he realize what he was doing?
Sadaf: I believe so. I believe so. I think, you know, there's a level of, um, control that goes with a personality like this cuz um, if you have no self-control, you would do these kinds of things. Talk in these ways. Um, behave like this. At any point, you might go into the office and start acting like this. You know, your boss is there, but you'll do it anyway. Or you'll do it in church, or you'll do it out on the street.
But there's that level of control that I'm gonna do it behind closed doors where no one else can hear me. No one else can, um, you know, say what the narrative actually is. I get to control it. Wow. Um, and yeah, I, I, I believe that. Yeah.
Matt: So this guy's in church and to the whole world. He's, he's a good Christian Guy. Mm-hmm. Like, you've married the guy, you're gonna get married to the right guy. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. This is what everyone's thinking. Um, but behind closed doors, this is a completely different person. Yep.
So your mum hands you a card, things are going worse and worse and worse, and it's, we're close to the wedding. So your family have all come over for the wedding. Mm-hmm. Is that right? Mm-hmm. That's right. So what was it like with the family when they arrived?
Sadaf: Um, I was so excited to see them. Um, and yet there was this, um, this heaviness as well because I'm carrying so much that they are completely unaware of and, um, we're quite close. So we were quite close that we would share these things and, um, thankfully they were able to pick up on it and notice that I wasn't myself and, you know, um, yeah, they could just, they could just tell something was up and so they, they opened up the conversation and we were able to talk about it.
And, you know, it came out. I wasn't, I didn't have the confidence to tell them, I didn't have the guts to tell them upfront what, what was actually going on under the surface. But slowly I, you know, we peeled back the layers a little bit at a time. Um, I can still remember how painful it was for my parents especially to hear some of those things. Yeah. Um, and I felt terrible for putting them in that position. Yeah.
Matt: Man, that's hard. So you, you, you, you somehow get the courage, the bravery to say to this guy, enough's enough. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm out, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, you hand him back the ring, was that the last time you saw him?
Sadaf: Um, no, it was not the last time I saw him. He showed up, um, at the house a few times after that wanting, um, to change my mind. Mm-hmm. Um, wanting to, to see me and to like, you know,
get back into my head, but my family wouldn't allow it. Mm-hmm. Um, I saw him in the sense that I, there was no conversations, but, um, yeah, I, yeah, he did try showing up.
Matt: So your, your family then are quite key in this story. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, I mean, not taking away obviously from the, the, the, the function of God. Oh, that's, uh, in all of this. But you're, it seems like God used the, the family. Mm-hmm. You know, and they sort of close ranks around you. Mm-hmm. It feels like. So what was the, the process like?
You've given him the, the ring back. He's trying to get back in your head. The family is there with you. How does the process of healing then start?
Sadaf: Um, I'm so grateful that my family was there. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm really grateful for that because you know how it is when you're, when you're with your family, you're at home, your guards are down, and you can just be exactly who you are. And having them there in that time gave me that, that space. Um, um, and it was, it was just really good to have conversations and for them to pray with me, to pray for me, and to have that time together.
And then I actually ended up, um, moving away. Um, for the healing actually. Mm-hmm. For that purpose. Because being in the same place in the, and also the fear of him just showing up again. Yeah. Getting back in. I didn't want to backslide, I just wanted to move forward and I wasn't strong enough. Mm-hmm. With all my confidence gone, my self-doubt, like in, you know, full force.
Um, I was in no way, in no position to make life decisions. I just couldn't do it. So I ended up moving away, lived with my, um, sister and brother-in-law in Australia for some time, and, um, had, yeah, I had some, had some, um, counseling there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I think, you know, the biggest counselor in all of this was the Holy Spirit.
Yeah. Um, and that's been something that, that, you know, Even after those counseling sessions with that one person in a, in a, um, professional setting, the Holy Spirit was, you know, just with me the whole time and just been speaking into my life guiding, guiding me, giving me scripture upon scripture to mm-hmm.
Feed into. Um, and yeah, I think it's, it was a long road. Like, uh, what you're seeing now is nothing. What I was like when, when that all happened, um, yeah. I mean, you can ask my sister how hard it was to sit with me in a restaurant, just for me to like, pick what food I wanted or what drink I wanted. I couldn't make a decision for the life of me.
Cause it's just like, you know, whatever decision I was making was like, well, what does the other person think? Yeah. Um, is it okay? Is that a right decision? Is it not? Mm-hmm. Is it gonna come back at me somehow? You know, just everything.
Matt: Wow. So I, I'm guessing that in this journey then there was, um, This sort of period, uh, where you're going through counseling where forgiveness becomes the topic mm-hmm. Of conversation. And I'm guessing there was, I suppose, forgiveness of him, but in a bizarre sense, I suppose that was forgiveness of self. Mm-hmm. Um, how did you, or are you still working through that?
Sadaf: Um, yes, definitely forgiveness and, um, I have, I, I was able to forgive him. The Lord helped me do that. Um, I was able to pen a, a message to him. I sent, I had my, you know, the family read it to make sure, cuz you're in that point, you still don't wanna give too much of yourself away. And it's so easy to do that. So I needed people to sense check it from me. But no, I was very happy to, I got to a point where I was more than happy to forgive, move on.
Mm-hmm. Um, for his sake. For my sake. Um, And I think the, the self-forgiveness, you're right, that did have to happen and a lot of it did. But I think sometimes you kind of, um, not that I've been in that situation ever again. Mm-hmm. But sometimes you recognize things that have happened in the past and you're like, oh, I'm still reacting to something in a way that I've reacted to before.
Yeah. And it just, you know, I guess it's the Lord's way of showing you that there's still something in your heart that needs healing and needs you to, work on. And, um, maybe at the time, like I've thought about it, um, That, you know, why does it sometimes keep coming up? And I think when, I was in that time, it was traumatic.
Yeah. And the only way for me to be able to move on and actually heal was for, it to just shut down in some sense. Right. Yeah. And then as you're getting stronger and are able to take on more, the Lord gives you some more to work through. Um, I don't know if that's right. That's my understanding of, of what, um, what's gone on.
Um, but I think in each of those times that it's happened or something's come up, being able to, bring it to the Lord and ask for healing and forgiveness of self, is, really important. Mm-hmm. For my own relationship with the Lord, for me to keep walking in step with him.
Matt: So if you could, um, I feel like we could talk about this for a very long time, and I, uh, uh, but I'm, I'm curious if, if you could go back in time.
Mm-hmm. Um, Maybe write us another card to give to, you know, the, the younger version of you. when you are going through that, what would it say, what would you, what would you want to tell yourself? what advice would you give yourself?
Sadaf: Um, I think I would say speak up. Say it as it is. Talk to, your trusted, friends and family. And if someone is doing that to you, where they're pulling you away from people that matter most to you, there's something wrong in the picture. Mm-hmm. Um, and I didn't recognize that fast enough. I think I was too far, um, re I was too far gone by that time that I didn't, at that point then I didn't have the confidence to go back,
Matt: To speak up. Mm-hmm. And speak to someone who's trusted. No mm-hmm. I think that's so true, isn't it? And sometimes, um, I mean, I've heard stories, uh, in fact, I know a couple of people, um, who were in abusive relationships, uh, they eventually found the courage to speak someone they trusted about it, which was their church pastor.
Mm-hmm. And their church pastor tried to sweep it under the rug. Um, and you can imagine, well, actually, I can't imagine the horror of that. Absolutely. Um, and I, I think it's, it's important what you say, it's, it's someone that's gonna, um, recognize that actually you are going through this mm-hmm. And stand alongside you in it.
Right? Mm-hmm. I, I imagine that's what a trusted person is. Yeah. Yeah. So for you, that was your family, your sisters, your brother, your mm-hmm. Your parents. Yeah. Wow. So, which was, um, I. If I can put it this way, which was easier, the forgiveness of him or forgiveness of self?
Sadaf: Probably him. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Matt: Yeah. So it was harder to forgive yourself?
Sadaf: Yeah. Yeah.
Matt: Why do you think that was?
Sadaf: I think because I, I felt like I knew better. Mm-hmm. I, you know, I could have, um, I, it could have, it didn't have to get that bad if I had done the, I had done it all sooner. And, you know, I have like, you know, I told you I, I became a Christian at six years old and I've lived in, I've had, you know, the blessings of being like growing up in a Christian home and, um, why did I not, you know, why did I not do something about it sooner?
Why didn't I tell my dad? Why didn't all these things go through your head? But, you know, um, the truth is he's responsible for his actions and I'm responsible for mine. Mm-hmm. And I need to bring, instead of doing the, you know, the what ifs and getting caught up in that. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I need, you know what? I'm responsible for mine. I'm held accountable for mine. Um, yeah.
Matt: Yeah. It's a tricky one, isn't it? Cuz it's at some point I tend to find at some point you can go back and deal with the what if questions. Yeah. When you are in a, in a, in a better place. Mm-hmm. Um, but the reality of it is this is where you are now.
Mm-hmm. And you have to go, no, this is where I am. Yeah. This is your pouring out your heart in the journal. This is a tears on the piece of paper. This is a realization. I, I mean, speaking up and speaking up actually first to yourself, uh, in Prayer in the journal. Mm-hmm. You know, and actually recognizing and just being brutally honest with yourself.
This is what's going on and this is not okay. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, really hard things to do, but super liberating and powerful all at the same time. Yeah. Um, and you don't wish it on anybody? No. But, um, so fast forward X amount of years, um, you are now married to, you're married to just this really cool guy, Jeff. Um, and, um, he's, he's a scouser with bright ginger hair. Um, and how, how long did that healing process take place?
Because I'm imagining that you didn't just give him the engagement ring back and two weeks later Oh, hey Jeff. Yeah. Um, uh, how you doing? Yeah. Um, I'm, there's, there's obviously a process in between that. Mm-hmm. And, uh, how did, I guess, how long did that process take and how was it for you? Um, I guess I'm making the assumption here that Jeff was your first serious boyfriend post this. Mm-hmm. Um, how did that affect your relationship in the early years?
Sadaf: Um, you are right. It was a process and um, um, I think a lot of healing went on in that time. For me, I regained my confidence. I regained my confidence in the Lord in who I was. Um, and, um, you know, just trusting the Lord for what he's got next for me. Cuz you know, I was engaged to this guy and whatever was around it. You still at the same time thinking about building a life with someone, you know, regardless of what he was doing. I mean, just the engagement side of things. Um, so there was a lot of things to unravel.
Um, but by the time that, um, Jeff came into in my life and things were starting to get serious with him, I did actually, I. Find myself trying to push his buttons purposefully. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think in on some level, I was doing it, um, without realizing it. Mm-hmm. But there was a, there was also a part of me that, you know, as it, as it, as I was doing, it became more clear to me that this is, I'm, I'm pushing his buttons because I wanna see how he's gonna react.
Right. How far can I push him before he strikes me? How far can I push him before he says something? Um, yeah. I wanted to just, uh, see if there was anything there that I needed to run from. Right. And just I thought, you know, rather than like doing this long relationship and finding out in year, you know, 5-10, I wanna know now, so I'm just going to push all the buttons and whatever's gonna come out, I'll deal with it. And then, You know, walk away or do whatever. Wow. So, I mean, that's pretty callous. I know, but
Matt: I dunno if I use the word callous, but, but that's gotta be pretty intense for Jeff, right? I mean, he's, he's obviously gotta deal with this. I mean, had you told him about the, what you'd come out of? Was he aware that this was what was going on? Or did he just think Oh my goodness.
Sadaf: Yeah, he, he knew. So as things were getting, um, serious with him, then I felt like I needed him to know this mm-hmm. About my past. Because I, you know, I fully understand that, um, it's shaped me Yeah. Perhaps in some ways that I wasn't, that I don't like so much about myself anymore, but it has shaped me.
Um, and so whether that means undoing some of those things that I, you know, that are, that are not right. Um, but yeah. So I made sure that he knew what I, what my, what I was coming from. Um, yeah, he did know.
Matt: Okay. And so you guys just talked it through and kept talking it through? Yeah. Still talk it through maybe,
Sadaf: um, No, not as much. Not as much. It doesn't really come up as much.
Matt: Okay. Okay. Well, like I say, thanks again for sharing. Um, I, it is, I mean, it's horrific in any sense. Um, but the fact that this happens in a Christian relationship is just, I think is, I don't know. I struggle with that in my own head. Mm-hmm. You know, a, a guy who professors to claim Christ as Lord Yep.
Thinks it's okay to, to, to be abusive, um, in such a way that actually, not only am I justifying it to myself, I'm making my partner feel like it's their fault. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's just, I, I can't get my head around it. So, um, how did you, how did you bridge the connection then with, because you've, this is your life experience. Mm-hmm. And it's horrific, you know, it, it is genuine real abuse. Um,
How did you reconcile that with the theology of God is good?
Sadaf: Um, I think that, um, well, God is good. Let's start there. God is good and everything he does is for good. It's for our good. And yes, you know, hard things happen and, um, we have, we have personal experiences that are hard. We have shared experiences that are hard and they're hard nonetheless, but the Lord allows them.
And um, you know, they shape us. They shape us into becoming more like him if we allow them to. And um, and I think sometimes going through those hard times is what makes us. Gives us more substance. Yeah. It makes us stronger. It makes us, become even more aware of how good he is. And also none of these things that happen here change the fact that he loves me and he's got a purpose for me.
Mm-hmm. And at the end of my time here, I'm going to live in eternity with him. Like that still holds. Yeah. And, um, yeah, so for me, it's, it doesn't feel like a stretch at all. Mm-hmm. And maybe it's because I've, you know, been a Christian for a long time and I've seen the Lord working and my faith has been shaped and pulled and stretched in all different ways. But, um, yeah, that's how I reconciled it.
Matt: yeah. It's a really interesting one, isn't it? Because, um, you see people go through horrendous stuff and they either press into God mm-hmm. During that time, um, and it, it shapes them and, and they come out of the other side of it, um, maybe stronger or something has happened. Mm-hmm.
You know, um, there's a really interesting book, and I can't remember the, the exact title of it, but it's, it's like the Blessing in the Cancer. Mm-hmm. Do, you know what I mean? It's that kind of, don't waste the blessing in the cancer or something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, which is just, it's a really interesting way of looking at the, the difficult times, which I don't think in the Western church we do that well.
Mm-hmm. We kind of define God by our experience. Is my experience good, therefore God is good? Yeah. If my experience is bad, how can God be good? Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, and John Harding calls this, um, he uses this phrase, a weak theology of suffering, uh, which is quite interesting, which we, which we struggle with.
Whereas when we go outside, um, of say the Western Church, you get the other group of people who are going through some horrendously hard time. But they, God is in, in their head, God is with them in it. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. And in their faith, God is with them in it. It's not defined God to them. Yeah. Yeah. In the sense that God is, it's not said that God's bad because this is happening.
Mm-hmm. God is good because this is happening and he's with me in it. Mm-hmm. And I can't necessarily see the end from the beginning, but I know that he'll, he'll be with me and I know that ultimately I can trust him. Yeah. Right.
Sadaf: And like, he never promised us a bed f roses on this earth, did he? Like he never said that. He said, you know, you, once you're my children now, everything's not gonna be perfect for you. Mm-hmm. We are gonna struggle, we are gonna have those problems, but his, his grace is sufficient for us.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. I totally agree. And, uh, it's, it's, it's incredible really. Mm-hmm. But what a story and do you come across then Sadaf. In your walk um, many people who have been victims of domestic abuse, uh, um, because I, I tend to notice that actually if I've gone through something, I draw people mm-hmm. Near to me that have gone through something similar or I can pick up on the cues or I know to ask a question that maybe not other people would ask and wouldn't see.
Um, have you found that?
Sadaf: I have actually, um, no one's come out to me and said, you know, this, this, and this happened. But you're right, like picking up on the cues and just knowing what, getting a sense of it and getting, having the questions that as you're asking, you're probing, you realize actually, yeah, it, um, that was their experience too.
Mm-hmm. Um, But, and, and actually as hard as that is, being able to share in their pain as well. But there's also that, um, being able to understand them, there's something really nice about that, that you can walk along alongside somebody. Yeah. And, um, share in that pain and in that grief and be able to like, you know, point them back to Jesus and what he has done and what can, what he can do.
And that's, that's a real privilege actually.
Matt: Yeah. Well, so, um, you've been a Christian since you were six years old, which is I'm, I'm way before me, uh, to be, I wasn't a Christian till I was like 18, 19. Um, so a long time before me. And obviously up until you meet this guy, there is, um, there's a dream, isn't there?
There's a, a sort of a belief or a hope or a vision for your future, um, that life will kind of go mm-hmm. This way. Um, And it, it sounds like for you there's, there's been this massive twist within an, with the abusive relationship. Have there been other twists along the way?
Sadaf: Um, you mean in, in, in this particular path? Like to marriage or you mean just, just in life, generally in life, yeah. I think, um, a really big one for, uh, for me and my siblings, it was a very shared experience was, um, my parents both passing away 13 months of each other. So that's been about eight, nine years ago. Um, and that was huge for us. I mean, I, it's, it is huge for us.
Um, cuz they were so, um, instrumental in, you know, who I am today. Yeah. Um, our parents impressed on us the importance of, um, walking with the Lord. And I remember my dad would say to us, Have you read your Bible today? Have you read your I love my dad so much. I don't wanna disappoint, so I'm gonna read my Bible so I can, I don't have to say no.
Matt: Yes, dad. Yes, I have. Leave me alone now. Leave me alone.
Sadaf: And I, you know, maybe, well, I did, I had more love for my dad than the Lord at that time. But you know, it's, um, it's, um, it got me there. Um, yeah, so they were just solid, solid people, um, believers, godly, and, um, instilled so much in us. Mm-hmm. And I guess in that sense, we have a real rich heritage in the Lord.
Yeah, yeah. Don't we? Because of that. Um, and yeah, so they are gone, but we look forward to the reunion one day, the great reunion.
Matt: You can dance on the, on those golden streets together.
Sadaf: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Dad was, um, dad was diagnosed with cancer, so it was all, um, Heavy. It was very heavy. Um, and then mom died suddenly at the same time that he was diagnosed, which we weren't, you know, expecting at all.
Yeah. So really felt like, um, the rug had been pulled out from under us in some sense. And yet at the same time, the Lord was just so good, even in that, I remember, like, there was so many things going on around us. My, my dad was dying, my mom had passed my, um, my siblings had been in, um, my sister had been in a car crash along with my mom, and she was in hospital and there was all this stuff going on around us, but we had still so much to be thankful for. The Lord was still so good in, um, just carrying us through that, through that time.
Matt: Yeah. So your, your father gets diagnosed with cancer. Mm-hmm. Um, And can I ask what type of cancer it was?
Sadaf: Yeah, it was lung cancer.
Matt: So your father has got lung cancer and actually the, the, the story of the car crash with your mom and sister was they, they were on the way to visit your dad in hospital, is that right?
Sadaf: Um, yeah. So we, my dad was, um, my parents were in Pakistan. Mm-hmm. And dad was diagnosed and all of us were traveling out. So I had two sisters in, um, Canada. They were traveling out and I went from England. And, um, when my eldest sister arrived, she was the last of, of the three of us to get there.
Um, my mom went to pick her up from the airport with our driver. Mm-hmm. And on the way back at like, um, four o'clock in the morning or something, there was, they had a head on collision with an oil tanker. Wow. And so mom, mom had internal in injuries, so they didn't think that they thought she was okay.
When she got to the hospital is when, when she passed away. Mm-hmm. My sister had, um, Bad injuries all down her face. And my and niece had broken her leg and there was so much, there was, it was chaos. Um, but yeah, that, that was, that was the story. So it was all, it all just happened
Matt: all at once, yeah. So there's no time to process any of this. It was all very sudden. Mm-hmm. And so how did you, I mean, that's a lot of grief to deal with in, in, and a lot of grief to carry. Um, and you talk about how, you know, uh, the God was, was with you guys in the midst of that. How did you, how did you process that grief? Um, how did you come to terms with it?
Cause I don't know if you ever do, but it's that, how did you wrestle with that? Because this was, I suppose, in one sense, um, if you are, if your parents or someone you know has cancer. You, again, it's the frog in boiling water. Mm-hmm. That, you know, there's this sort of slow buildup thing isn't there? And you can deal with things as you go along.
I dunno if that's more helpful or not, when a parent suddenly dies. Um, because that's just totally out the blue and unexpected. And so it seems that you had both Yeah. Of these. We did. Uh, how did you, how did you deal with that?
Sadaf: Um, a lot of conversations. I think the, the nice thing in that sense was that it was a shared experience. So I was, I had my siblings to talk to. We were all kind of in the same boat. Um, and dad was still around after mom died. So being able to talk with him and share with him how we were feeling, ask him how he was feeling, and just draw it all out. Um, I think conversations were really helpful and being able to bring everything to the Lord mm-hmm.
In our grief was, was really liberating actually. And being able to do it together. We were so thankful that we could do it, that we could be together in it. Yeah. Um, I think we really, um, were blessed by that. Yeah. Um, and then I think there's, there's another aspect of it and I think, you know, I don't know whether this is prolonged, like the grief is just going on, or is this just how it is when someone passes away in your life?
But because it happened in Pakistan, my life here in England is so different, right? Like no one here knew my parents. Like, you know, they came out for my wedding and, and things like that, but they didn't really, they didn't really know my life in, in Pakistan. Yeah. Or my siblings who were all over the place.
So it was like, I went to Pakistan and all this happened. Mom passed away, dad passed away, all this heaviness and we come here and life just goes on. So it's, it was really hard to kind of hold the two together and you're here and life, well, you kind of have to get on with life. I've got a toddler, I've got a baby.
And, um, and so I don't know. It it, it was, it was a bizarre experience actually. Because I think if we, if it happened here, you're in it and you can talk about it and you deal with it as life goes on, but you kind of pull it on hold. You come here, you put the grief on hold, you put stuff on hold so that life can go on and the next time you pick up the phone to a sibling is when you can start processing it again.
Matt: Right. Um, yeah. All, very unusual circumstances, aren't it? I mean, it's like, I dunno if you could have scripted it. Um, so this was seven, eight years ago you said? Yeah, 8, 9, 8, 9 years ago. And do you feel like you've processed that now or is it still ongoing?
Sadaf: Um, I think that, yeah, I've, I've processed it in the sense that, you know, I'm, I, I guess I accepted they were gone even then, like, cuz it's a reality. And I think what I clinging onto and what we all clinging onto is the fact that. It's not the end. Mm-hmm. We will see them and you know, there's a time here as much as I wish I could pick up the phone or see them or share a story about Funny thing that the kids said. Yeah. And, um, you know, or ask how do you cook this? Or where is that?
Matt: I've tasted some of the, your mum's recipes they're very good. Yeah.
Sadaf: Um, um, but yeah, I've, you know that, that's missing. Yeah. But it's not the end. Yeah. Um, and I think that's what, that's what keeps us going. And now, I mean, I've just recently had a death anniversary and, um, there is sorrow in it because you miss them and you think about them and what life would be like.
But I don't want, I don't wish them back ever. Hmm. Because, you know, why would you? Yeah. They're with Jesus. Um, but
Matt: yeah, I don't think they'd thank you for it.
Sadaf: No, they wouldn't. What are you doing?
Matt: It's really, uh, there's a, he's been on this podcast actually, and he's on Crowd quite a lot, Dave Connolly. Mm-hmm.
Who was, um, the founding pastor of the church we go to. Mm-hmm. And, uh, Dave said to me years ago, I've always remembered it, he said, listen, um, if we are walking somewhere and I drop dead, I don't wanna be raised from the dead. And if you do raise me from the dead and you're praying, and God somehow brings me back, don't, don't expect me to thank you.
He said, I won't, I won't be grateful. And I was like, okay.
Sadaf: Note to self, but yeah. Um,
Matt: so I mean, you know, set up listening to you talk and sharing your story, I know about you, obviously the more, um, Modern version, I suppose the more current version, cuz we've known each other for four or five years now. Mm-hmm.
Um, and we've been working together all that time. And so there's obviously all of this stuff has, has sort of shaped you as you've gone along. And I, I look at your life and I think, um, I can see God's hand in, in it because I, I think who you are is not representative of who you were, if that makes sense.
I think you are. If you had no confidence back then, I don't see that now at all on any kind of level.
Sadaf: That's a compliment, right?
Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Uh, just take, take it how it comes, but I just don't, I think, you know, um, you are super confident. Super um, Welcoming. You just love people, have a heart of people, which is amazing. Um, usually you're laughing and smiling and joking. Usually not all the time, but most of the time, which is great. Um, super encouraging, got a can-do attitude. Do, you know what I mean? Let's get on and do it. So I think I can see, uh, the who you are is not who you were, um, which is lovely.
Um, but if you, as we sort of, you know, I'm aware of time as we, as we draw to a close, um, if you had like, uh, one message that you could give to people, um, you know, I say to people that, um, if you, if you were asked to give a sermon and it was the last sermon and the only sermon you would ever give, um, based on all that you've kind of experienced and you know what God has taught you, what would, what would be the, what would be in that talk?
Sadaf: Um, you know, I think of my kids when you say this, cuz what is the one thing I drill into their heads?
Matt: It's the same question, but Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really. Um, mum's always right. That's the,
Sadaf: um, I I would say be a student of the Bible. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like study it and get to know it because in that there is so much truth, there is so much richness. Mm-hmm. And you get to know, you know, you have the, you have the, the joy of getting to know the Lord more and more. He's your savior. He's, and he just, you know, his character is written in all those pages and all of those things are still true today. He was the same. He is the same today as he was yesterday. And, um, yeah. Grow, be a student and grow.
Matt: So do you. Do are you, do you, are you like in the Bible every day? Is that, is that how you do it? Are you, um, do you, do you have like a specific set time? How's that, how does that work for you?
Sadaf: Um, yeah, so I mentioned earlier how my dad would ask us, have you read the Bible? So that was, um, some, that was a, um, habit we adopted very early on. Mm-hmm. I'm saying we, I'm speaking for every, all my siblings. I need to stop doing that, but I, um, yeah. So I, I like to do that in the mornings. Mm-hmm. Um, when the kids came along, it just, you know how it is, newborns and babies and that all went out the window and I remember I can, I didn't even get five minutes alone.
Yeah. And, um, I remember feeling guilty about that actually, until I had to like realize, you know, I can talk to him anytime. It doesn't have to be just in that hour slot. Yeah. So, um,
Matt: And also life goes through seasons. Yes, absolutely. I mean, if that's one thing you've learned is there's seasons mm-hmm. And we, we adapt to the season we're in. And when you have young kids that that is a season.
Sadaf: Yes. That is a season. Which I'm glad I'm out of. They're still little but not that young.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're definitely smaller than my kids.
Sadaf: Yeah. Um, yeah. So I, I like to, to do that in the mornings is the time for me cuz I feel like there's no distractions. Um, as the day goes on, I can think of so many other things to be doing. Mm-hmm. But it's a discipline, isn't it?
Matt: Yeah, it is. So, um, and I think it's easy to fall out of. Yes, exactly. Yeah. But, um, but it is a And do you sit, read your Bible? Do you have a journal with you or, or are you just a reader. Do you need to take notes? Do you have the fancy pastel highlighters?
Sadaf: I do. Yeah. Um, but the, the pencil ones not the, because the pencil ones don't go through, they don't bleed through the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, all of that. I love my stationery.
Matt: I love my, that's awesome. I have, um, I tend to read now on my, cuz my phone's always with me and so I'm always reading on the phone. Mm-hmm. And I've just got out of the habit of having, um, like I had this armchair with my old bible next to it and I'll just pick it up and again, you just scroll in the margins.
Mm-hmm. And of course, I mean, you can make notes on the phone, but I don't, it's bizarre, isn't it?
Sadaf: It's it not the same cause you can't go back to them. Right. Yeah.
Matt: And it is, but I mean, cuz you know, with Crowd you're always doing sermons and so you kind of like, oh, where's that? Where? And you're just like, did I write it in that bible or that bible over that?
I'm sure I had a really good thought about this at one point. Right. Yeah. But somehow they're, you know, they've not all been collected into one thing. So read your Bible, um, find Jesus on the pages of the Bible would be your mm-hmm. Your topic. And so your
Sadaf: Be a student of, of the Bible study it. Don't just read it, study it.
Matt: So what's the, make this our final question. What's the one aspect, um, of, of the Bible then the, the one thing which is constantly pulling you in that you just, you are like, wow, this is the revelation for me.
Sadaf: Oh, there's so much.
Matt: Um, yeah. I appreciate it's hard getting you to just go to one thing.
Sadaf: Yeah, I know you love that. Um, I don't know.
Matt: Don't tell me I've stumped you.
Sadaf: Yeah, you have. Was that on purpose's last question.
Matt: No, no, no. I'm just, I'm really proud of myself. Uh, it's too much. It's too much. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Uh, so thank you for coming on to the show. Not that you had much choice, I suppose, in a lot of ways.
Uh, the Guinea pig. Um, I've really enjoyed doing this face-to-face. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's been really fun actually. It's been really interesting. Yeah. And, uh, lots to learn as a result of doing. I'm sure if you're watching, I'm sure we'll get better. Um, hopefully we'll get better at doing this sort of, uh, uh, face-to-face cuz we're gonna do more of them.
Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, no, it's been awesome Sadaf. Thanks for coming on the show. If people wanna reach out, if they want to connect with you, what's the best way to do that?
Sadaf: This one I also wasn't prepared for.
Matt: Um, that's bizarre because you produce every podcast.
Sadaf: Like you already know Matt, why you
Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just reach out to Sadaf via Crowd church.
Sadaf: Yeah. Just, uh, just any of the websites we talk about.
Matt: I was not prepared for the one question we ask every guest that comes on the show. It's funny, isn't it? When you are, um, uh, I guess when you are behind, behind the scenes is the wrong phrase, but here you are actually the star of the show. Right. Whereas, um, normally it's somebody else and you are making sure everything's tidy behind the backgrounds and making sure it all works, which is amazing.
Cuz if you weren't there, it just wouldn't. Um, so how, how have you found it being this side of the microphone?
Sadaf: Ah, well, it's definitely more, uh, nerve-wracking. All these cameras pointed at you, but, you know, um, it's okay.
Matt: It's worked out all right. Yeah. Awesome. Well, listen, thank you, uh, so much for joining in to the What's the Story podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Hope you've enjoyed, uh, our conversation. Sadaf its been amazing. Thank you for just being totally honest and sharing your heart. Um, And I think it'll do a lot of good for a lot of people, I hope, hope so, which is always, you know, why we do these things.
So yeah, thanks for watching. Thanks for tuning in. If you are curious about Crowd Church and what we do, you can find out more information on our website, www.crowd.church. All the informations on there about the live streams of service, more information about what's the Story podcast is on there.
Um, all the episodes, all the conversations, all the things that Sadaf produces behind the scenes, they're all on there. Uh, and you can find out, uh, all the stuff there at Crowd Church, www.crowd.church. Thanks so much for tuning in. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcast from because we've got yet more great conversations lined up.
And I don't want you to miss any of them. And in case no one has told you yet today, what do we tell the people? You are awesome. Awesome. That's right. Created awesome. It's just a burden you have got to bear. You have to bear it. I have to bear it, and you've gotta bear it too. So, uh, thanks for tuning in. Appreciate you, uh, and we'll see you next time. Bye for now.