Everyone Needs a Father, So Who Wants to Be One

30 Nov

YouTube Video of the Church Service

How many podcasts have you listened to this week? How many opinions have you scrolled past? How many "experts" have told you how to live your life, manage your money, fix your marriage, or find your purpose? We're drowning in guides. And yet somehow, we've never felt more lost.

This week at Crowd Church, Matt Edmundson explored a phrase from the Apostle Paul that feels uncomfortably relevant to our information-saturated age. Paul told the church at Corinth: "You have countless guides in Christ, but you do not have many fathers." Not more content. Not more opinions. More dads.

The Problem with Countless Guides

There's fascinating research showing that beyond a certain point, more information actually makes our decisions worse, not better. Psychologists call it "analysis paralysis" — where there's so much input that your mind stalls and can't act on any of it. Information overload is now one of the most frequent sources of stress in our lives.

We have access to more wisdom than any generation in history. Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, Tim Keller, countless podcasts and YouTube channels offering guidance on everything from faith to finances. And yet...

None of them know your name.

They're not invested in your life. They won't be there when the advice doesn't work out. They offer influence without investment. And as Matt pointed out, that's a world apart from what Paul was describing.

What Makes a Spiritual Father Different

So what exactly is the difference between a guide and a father? It's not just semantics.

Matt shared a quote, "When my father died, I realised he was the only man on the planet who wanted me to be better than him."

Think about that. In a world built on competition, where everyone's trying to get ahead and protect their position, a father is the one person genuinely cheering when you overtake him. A therapist helps you become functional, then you graduate. A coach helps you reach your goal, then you move on. But a spiritual father? They walk with you for life.

The goal is different, too. Mentorship and coaching almost always point you toward self-actualisation — becoming the best version of yourself, achieving your goals, and building your status. Christian spiritual fatherhood points you toward someone else entirely. The focus isn't you. It's Jesus. The goal isn't a better you. It's Christlikeness.

The Fork in the Road

Matt shared his own story of spiritual fatherhood with Dave Connolly, one of the founding pastors of Frontline Church. Back in 1995, fresh out of university with an accounting and law degree, Matt was excited about his faith and considering moving to America for ministry.

He talked to Dave about it — an older man, wiser in the Lord, whose opinion he valued. And Dave said something unexpected: "Matt, you're at a fork in the road. There are two paths in front of you, and actually it's okay to choose either one. But there's an option you haven't considered. What about staying here? What about volunteering for the church for a year and seeing what God does?"

That conversation changed everything. Matt stayed. He volunteered. That was the year he met Sharon. Everything since — the marriage, the kids, Crowd Church — flows from that fork in the road moment with Dave.

Every year on Father's Day, Matt sends Dave Connolly a card. Because that's what spiritual fathers deserve.

Not Control, But Release

Now, we need to address something important. The idea of spiritual fathers has been weaponised in some church contexts — used to control people, manipulate them, keep them small. Some of you may have experienced that firsthand. And the word "father" itself carries complicated baggage for many.

But Jesus subverts the power dynamic that makes this dangerous. He said: "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them. It shall not be so among you. Whoever would be great among you must be your servant."

A spiritual father isn't above you. They're ahead of you — walking a few steps in front on the same path. And their job is to help you catch up, not keep you behind.

Paul put it this way: "Not that we lord it over you, but we work with you for your joy."

With Dave, Matt describes simply doing life together. If there's a spare ticket to a Liverpool game, Dave will come to Anfield just to hang out (despite being a full-blown Everton fan). Dave often says, "You can hear God just as well as I can. You'll make the right decision. I have no doubt."

That's what releasing looks like. Not control. Not dependency. Just someone genuinely cheering for you, whatever decision you make.

Walking Jen Down the Aisle

Matt shared a beautiful example of what spiritual fatherhood looks like in practice. Jen first connected with the church through a kids' club that Sharon helped run. Years later, Jen moved in with Matt and Sharon as a lodger. She and her twin sister Cat tried to define the relationship — settling on "Brodad" (a weird brother-uncle-dad hybrid they couldn't quite categorise).

When Jen got married, she asked Matt to do the father-of-the-bride thing. He walked her down the aisle. At the end, he leaned over to her soon-to-be husband, Rob and said: "Rob, there are no refunds and no returns, dude."

Then came the speech. And Matt loved every second of it — getting to brag about this woman who'd done so much life with them over the years.

What was happening? Legacy. What Dave passed on to Matt, Matt passed on to Jen. And now Jen is passing it on to others. That's how it works. We give what we've been given.

Conversation Street

Does a spiritual father have to be older than you, both in age and in the faith?

Not necessarily. It's about maturity and being further down the track in specific areas, not about birth certificates. Paul told Timothy: "Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity." Someone younger might be further ahead in a particular aspect of faith and could speak into that area of your life. It's not about age — it's about faithfulness and being a step ahead on the path.

What about the relationship between biological fathers and spiritual fathers?

They don't have to be different people. Your dad can absolutely be your spiritual father, too. But spiritual fathers can also complement biological fathers beautifully. Will Sopwith shared that his son now talks about someone as a spiritual father — and there's no sense of competition or replacement. It's the beauty of God's bigger family. You get to have multiple voices speaking into your life, and that's a gift.

How do we protect against spiritual control?

The warning signs are clear: when you're not allowed to think for yourself, when you can't disagree, when questioning gets you ostracised. That's control, not fatherhood. A true spiritual father is releasing. They'll give their opinion, but they won't manipulate you with it. And here's the key — it doesn't matter what decision you make, they'll still be there. That's what makes it fathering and not controlling.

Your Next Step This Week

If you're looking for a spiritual father or mother:

Look for faithfulness, not impressiveness — Someone whose walk with Jesus you want to imitate. It doesn't have to be your church pastor (they're probably insanely busy). Just someone who loves Jesus well.
Start with coffee — No formal request needed. Just: "I'd love to learn from how you follow Jesus. Could we meet up sometime?" Most people are honoured to be asked.
Don't panic if they say no — Something else might be going on. Pray and trust God to lead you to the right person.

If you're being called to be a spiritual father or mother:

You're more qualified than you think — The gospel makes spiritual legacy possible, even when you didn't have a model yourself.
Just be available — Invite someone into what you're already doing. It doesn't have to be onerous.
Remember the person waiting for you might be waiting for you — What if they're ready, but wondering if anyone would ever invest in them?

The Father Behind All Fatherhood

Here's the thing: God is the Father from whom all fatherhood flows. Every good experience of fatherly love you've ever had is a shadow of the love of Father God. And every absence, every wound, every disappointment — He's the father who can heal that.

Jesus came so we could be adopted into God's family. Not to earn our way in. Just adopted. And once we've experienced that Father, we have something to pass on.

Everyone needs a father. And everyone, we think, is called to become one.

So who's waiting for you?

# Everyone Needs a Father, So Who Wants to Be One
[00:00:00]
## Welcome to Crowd Church
MATT EDMUNDSON: Hello and welcome to Crowd Church, coming to you live from Liverpool this Sunday night. My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your first time or whether you've been part of our journey since the beginning, it's brilliant to be with you. We are a community of people figuring out what it means to follow Jesus in real life, not the polished, perfect version, but you know, the messy, genuine, brilliant reality of this whole thing called Christianity.
So let me give you a little roadmap of what's gonna be happening. Over the next hour. We'll have a talk, lasts about 20 minutes, looking at the topic of relationships, which is the section of our series becoming whole, that we are looking at exploring how Christ makes us whole across every domain of life.[00:01:00]
After the talk, we've got conversation streets. Oh yes. This is where we dig into what you've just heard, and you get to be part of that discussion. So if you're with us live, jump into the comments, share your questions, your thoughts, and your stories. And of course, if you're watching on Catchup or listening to the podcast, then thanks for being part of the Crowd too.
Right? Let's meet your hosts and let's get started.
## Meet Your Hosts: Dan and Will
Dan Orange: Hello everyone and welcome to Crowd Church. It's great to be here tonight. Um, I'm Dan Orange and I'm joined by the wonderful Will. I was about to say Will Smith. Will Smith Not here. Sorry. Will
Will Sopwith: No, that's, that's, that's a bit of a better, I'm I'm terribly sorry.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just not Will Smith. I I've probably been cool. Smith in, in my time soap with is a difficult name to get your head around, but, um, yes, good evening Dan. Lovely to see you too. Uh, and welcome to Crowd this evening. Uh, great. Uh, [00:02:00] great to have you join us, uh, whether you are on the live stream or catching up on this, uh, later in the week.
Um, great to have you and we're gonna have a really good conversation, uh, this evening.
Dan Orange: Yeah.
## Introduction to the Talk: Spiritual Fathers and Mothers
Dan Orange: We've just been talking before and we, I do you ever get times when everything in our life is busy and we were just talking and, and everything's busy, but this is a time where we can. Take a breath. We can hear God's word.
We can hear a bit more about him, learn a bit more about him. So Matt is, is gonna do the talk today. Um, so while he is doing the talk, um, if you've got any questions, just post 'em in the comments and we'll be back afterwards with Conversation Street to discuss them. Um, I'm looking forward to Matt's talk.
He's talking about spiritual fathers and mothers. Yeah, it'd be great to hear what he's got to say.
Will Sopwith: What, what, what's a spiritual father and a mother then? I, I'm totally preempting Matt's talk here, but, um, you know what, what's, yeah,
Dan Orange: yeah. I was just thinking that if, have [00:03:00] you got people in your life that you, that you look up to, that you, um.
Yeah, you rely on. Yes. Yeah. Stop there. Let's talk about this afterwards. Alright.
Will Sopwith: Alright. Let, let's, let's cut to Matt before, before we go on, um, and we'll dissect it afterwards. Matt, lovely to have you.
## Matt's Talk: The Importance of Spiritual Fathers
Will Sopwith: Are you ready to start your talk?
MATT EDMUNDSON: I am, I am. Just don't steal it. That's the main thing. I've worked hard on this talk evening, everybody.
You know, when Dan said, uh, we've got Will Smith joiners. I would, I, it would've been brilliant if you'd have gone born and raised in Philadelphia and just gone through that whole wrap. That would've been great. But, um, there you go. Anyway, welcome ladies. Gentlemen, great to be with you. Uh, like Will said, my name's Matt.
If you're new to Crowd, a very, very warm welcome to you if you are, uh, a regular Crowd. Good evening. Welcome back now. Let me take you back to 1995, a while ago. I appreciate, I just graduated from university with my accounting and law degree. [00:04:00] I'd been a Christian for just a few years at this point, and I was actually really excited about my faith and I was excited about Jesus.
Uh, and I had this idea that maybe I should, you know, move to the States and do some kind of ministry. And I talked to Dave Conley about it because I really valued his opinion. Um, if you don't know Dave Conley, Dave's been on Crowd. He's one of the founding pastors of the church that this is connected to Frontline Church.
Um, he's an absolute legend. I've known Dave for years and I really wanted to talk to him about this. And he was, he was, and still is, uh, an older man compared to me, uh, and very much wiser in the Lord. And I loved hearing what he had to say. And he said to me, Matt, you're at a fork in the road, right? There are two paths in front of you, and actually it's okay to choose either one, but there is this option which you haven't considered.
'cause in my head, I was on this default path, uh, and [00:05:00] Dave said, what about staying here? What about working for the church for a year as a volunteer and seeing what God does? Well, that conversation changed everything because like I said, in my mind, I was on this default path and Dave challenged me to think about other options and to pray.
And so I ended up staying, I ended up volunteering for the church, and that was the year that I met Sharon. And so for me, everything that's happened since the marriage, the Kids Crowd Church, all of this flows from that fork in the road conversation with Dave. And I've had many of these conversations with Dave ever since.
I'm not gonna lie. Um, and so the relationship I have with Dave is, well, it's interesting to say the least. How do you define it? I would actually call Dave my friend. He's a brother, but he's also a father, a spiritual father. In fact, every year on Father's Day, I send [00:06:00] Dave Connolly a Father's Day card as well as to my own biological father.
And it's something that I've done for a while. And so, like the chaps, you know, started to say, uh, we're gonna be talking about this idea, uh, of being a spiritual father. That's what we're gonna dig into. So the title of this talk is Everyone Needs a Father. So Who Wants To Be One, which is, you know, it's just another one of those titles which can make us feel a little bit uncomfortable because this idea, I think of fathers and especially spiritual fathers, has been weaponized, right?
It's been used to control people, to manipulate people, to keep people small. And some of you will have experienced that firsthand. So when I say everyone needs a father. Something inside you might recoil. And I, I get it. I do. I know the word father is complicated. Um, for other reasons as well. Maybe your [00:07:00] experience of fatherhood was an absent father or pain or something you'd rather not revisit, but stay with me because the Bible, I think subverts this power dynamic that makes spiritual fatherhood, spiritual fatherhood dangerous.
Okay. And to be clear, when we talk about this, scripture uses both father and mother in its language. We're gonna see Paul uses both, uh, later on. So it's not much, it's not so much about gender. I'm gonna talk about father just 'cause that's the default. But it's not so much about gender, it's more about the role and that role.
Is to be fully invested in someone's life. Okay? And so this is why I would call Dave Conley a spiritual father. He's fully invested in my life. So we're gonna look at three ideas, 'cause this is a church sermon and everything comes in threes. Uh, so the first thing we're gonna do is look at Paul's writing to the church at [00:08:00] Corinth, uh, where he introduces this whole idea.
Um, I also wanna look at what makes Christian spiritual fatherhood different? Why is it different? Why should I care? How's it different? Say coaching or mentorship? And finally, I'm gonna ask who maybe could you be a spiritual father or mother too? Okay.
## Paul's Teachings on Spiritual Fatherhood
MATT EDMUNDSON: So let's start by digging into what Paul meant when he said, uh, to the Corinthian church.
You have countless guides in Christ, but you do not have many fathers for in Christ Jesus. I became your father through the gospel. So you have countless guides. Paul says, which I think is a really interesting phrase, right? Countless people telling you what to do, countless opinions, which I think sounds really relatable.
Doesn't it? Really think about like how many podcasts or other forms of content [00:09:00] you have consumed just the past week. We have so many guides with so many opinions coming at us each and every day. We are literally drowning. In them. Right? And there's a lot of research on this topic at the moment for obvious reasons, and it's showing some really interesting things.
For example, beyond a certain point, more information actually decreases the quality of your decision, right? And actually it goes further than that. It doesn't, so it doesn't improvement. It makes them worse. But further than that, you come to what psychologists call analysis paralysis, which I just think is one of the best phrases ever, uh, analysis paralysis, which is where there's so much information, your mind stalls and can't act on any of the information that you have.
And there are some other interesting links with stress, for example. So information overload is one of the most frequent sources of stress [00:10:00] in our lives. We have countless guides. So many guides, right? And the more we have, it seems the worse our decisions become. We might even stop making decisions and our stress levels go up.
So I think Paul is probably right, right? We don't need more guides or opinions in our lives. What we need is more dads.
## The Role of Christian Spiritual Fatherhood
MATT EDMUNDSON: So what makes Christian spiritual fatherhood. Different because like I say, we know good mentorship exists outside the church. We see it in the business world, for example, in all the time.
Um, therapists, they help people, coaches, they develop people. And so I'm not dismissing that. Um, and in fact I've done coaching myself, uh, in the business world, right? So what. Does the gospel add? Does it add anything at all? Well, I think it does. I think there's a different goal, and this is really important, right?
So mentorship or coaching almost all the [00:11:00] time points you towards some kind of self-actualization, right? Become the best version of yourself and achieve your goals, which are usually connected to money or career, which is, well, that's fundamentally about status, isn't it? And that's good, right? It's not a bad thing, but it is.
Well, it's really limited. And I think Christian spiritual fatherhood, which I appreciate is not an easy phrase, um, points you towards someone else entirely. It's, it's not the focus, isn't you. It's all about Jesus. The goal isn't a better you, it's christlikeness. It's your relationship with God. It's your impact on building God's kingdom.
That's the goal. So the other day I heard someone talking recently, um, to the day recently. So the other day I heard someone talking about when their father passed away, and he said this, and I can't remember who it was that said it, but it really stuck in my head. [00:12:00] I realized that when my father died, he was the only man on the planet who wanted me to be better than him.
He was the only man on the planet that wanted me to be better than him. And I thought, what a great definition of a father, right? Because in a world built on this idea of you being a better you, where everyone's trying to get ahead and protect their position, a father is the one person genuinely cheering when you overtake him.
So a therapist helps you become functional and then you graduate. A coach helps you reach your goal and then you move on. But a spiritual father, like a father, which we'll talked about a few weeks ago, they walk with you for life. There's a permanency to this and they are genuinely cheering for you. [00:13:00] So there's a different goal, I think with this, which means I think also there's a different power dynamic, and I think this is really important, okay?
Because this is where the gospel subverts, what makes fatherhood potentially quite dangerous. This idea of spiritual fatherhood. So Jesus said, you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them and it shall not be so among you, right? Whoever would be great among you must be your servant. So a spiritual father isn't above you, but he's probably ahead of you, right?
Walking a few steps, uh, in front of you on the same path. And his job is to help you catch up, not to keep you behind. Paul puts it this way, uh, when he, again, right into the church in Corinth, uh, cor Corinth. Corinth, it's just Corinthians without the Corinthians, isn't it? Uh, Corinth, uh, [00:14:00] when he was writing to that church, Paul said, not that we lord it over you.
But we work with you for your joy. We work with you, not over you. Right. And the church I don't think has always got this right. And I think many have fallen into controlling behavior inside the church. I've seen it right and taken to its extremes. You then move into from controlling to spiritual abuse and then even into courts.
So how do you stop the behavior? How do we know it's controlling and beyond where the gospel wants us to go? Well, I think the danger starts, right, genuinely starts when you are not allowed to think for yourself, when you can't disagree when questioning something gets you ostracized. Now having a healthy questioning, um, is good.
Constantly being a pain in someone's [00:15:00] backside. That's a different, that's not what I'm talking about, right? But I think, you know, when you're being controlled, when you're not allowed to have an opinion, it's the same in marriage, it's the same in friendships. It's the same in this sort of spiritual mother father role as well see a healthy Christian, uh, healthy Christian spiritual fatherhood is not controlling in any way.
So with Dave, when we get together, we simply do life. If I'm honest with you, um, Dave's cool because I mean, he's a, he's a full blown Everton fan, but if I have a spare ticket to the Liverpool game, he'll come to Anfield with me just to hang out, right? And we'll watch Liverpool and we'll have a great time.
And Dave often uses phrases and I pick them up, you know, this is part of what it means to do life together. I pick up the phrases and Dave will often say to me, you can hear God just as well as I can. You'll make the right decision. I have no doubt. And sure he'll have an opinion, right? But Dave never tries to sway me with that opinion.
And here's the thing, uh, about it, it doesn't matter what [00:16:00] decision I make, he'll still be there. Right, which makes it releasing and not controlling. And that's what it looks like when someone has been, I think, fathered by God and then passes that on to someone else. It works with me and Dave because Dave has a really strong relationship with Father God.
Okay, so that leads me nicely to my final question. Okay. Who could you be a spiritual father or mother to? Who is waiting for you and who are you waiting for? You see, if I have a spiritual father, which I have, Dave is one of them, and I see the insane value of that relationship, which I do, and if I have faith in Christ, which I have, then I think it's fair to say that I should see, um, the calling to be a spiritual father to other people.
I should pass that on. I should father them. So what stops me? [00:17:00] And maybe let me ask, what is stopping you? Well, one of the things I, I think, is we're now living in a time where we've replaced fatherhood in some respects with programs in church and content creation online. You know, I'll share my thoughts.
I'll post my wisdom. I'll start this podcast. I'll influence from a distance, if you like. And this is all low cost. Pretty easy to do, no real ongoing commitments. And it isn't something to instantly dismiss, right? I don't think it's a bad thing, obviously, with what we are doing. Um, and it scales really quickly and I think there's a place for this kind of content and a place for teaching and putting stuff out there, which we do every single week here on Crowd, but that can't be all that we do.
We've got to do life with people because you'll never get to see the fruit. You'll never bear the cost of walking with someone through the [00:18:00] mess, and then you'll never get to experience the joy of watching someone surpass you. In other words, this is not about influence without investment, right?
Otherwise, we're just another guide, which Paul was talking about offering opinions, but not really fathering anyone. Like I say, in the church, we have programs and they are good. And helpful, but not for this, you don't program spiritual fathers, right? So being a spiritual parent is about sowing your life into someone else to see Christ formed in them.
That's the whole thing, right? I labor in birth. Paul said to see Christ formed in you last week at Crowd.
## Personal Stories of Spiritual Parenting
MATT EDMUNDSON: I talked about our lodgers, okay? So people who come and live with us and who do life with us. So I'm gonna tell you about a couple of them. My adopted, spiritual, adopted, just adopted 'cause they genuinely call people.
Uh, so I'm gonna tell you about Jen now, [00:19:00] Jen. Moved in as a lodger a number of years ago. And the reason Jen moved in was because her sister Katz, they're twins, um, had lived with us for a while, but Kat moved to London and a little while later, Jen moved into her room and both of them had become Christians when they were younger, when they were really little, uh, through a kids' club.
We ran here at church, which Sharon, my wife, um, works two or three days a week as a, as a part-time volunteer. She worked in that kids' club. Kat and Jen became Christians, and eventually they came to live with us when they were older. And somewhere in the middle of all of this happening, Kat, um, and Jen, they, they tried to define.
The relationship, um, that I had with them. They, they used phrase like, it's like a weird brother, uncle, dad type thing that we're not quite sure how to define. And so Kat started calling me Broda. Okay. Broda, uh, which I, if I'm honest [00:20:00] with you, I love it was probably, and I think it's the best term actually, that they could come up with to describe our relationship.
And just like I send Dave Connolly Father's Day cards, I've had Father's Day cards off Cat and Jen now a few years ago. Okay. Jen got married and she asked me to do that whole father of the bride thing, which was a real, real privilege. And in fact, there's a photograph of us which will hopefully come on your screen.
There you go. That's me and Jen in the back of the wedding car getting ready to go to the church. We arrived at the church, uh, I walked her down the aisle and when we got to the end of that, I, to the end of the aisle, I leaned over to her very soon to be husband Rob and told him, Rob, there are no reto, uh, no refunds and no returns, dude.
And I sat down and I cannot begin to tell you what a privilege it was for me to walk Jen down the aisle and then came the [00:21:00] father of the bride speech. Oh yes. Loved that. The room was beautiful with these full height windows and views across the hills. Um, and like they say in North Carolina, I was as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs because this was my first father of the bride's speech.
But you know what? I loved it. I loved every second of it. I, you know, part of that is 'cause I'm in the spotlight, but part of that is I just got to brag about this woman who. Done so much life with us, um, over a period of time, and it was one of the proudest moments of my life and what was happening here was legacy, right?
So what David passed on to me, I got to pass on to Jen. And Jen is now passing that on to others. And that's how it works, right? We give what we've been given and it's worth pointing out again just to, just to. Bring this home that Paul, he tells it is not just a male thing, right? It's, it involves women as well.
He tells [00:22:00] older women to train younger women and he even likens himself to being a mother when, right into the church at Thessalonica, right? So like I say, spiritual parenting is not gender exclusive. And so I do this and Sharon does it as well. Sharon does it super well, man, she cares for a lot of women, especially at work and with refugees and asylum seekers in our church community.
She is like awesome and she's properly grace driven, chasing people all the time, staying connected with people. Julie Connolly does it super well too. Dave's wife, both Dave and Julie. Um, amazing. And like even, like I say, even now, Kat and Jen, very, very good at staying connected with people and you know, being that mother hen type character.
So let's answer the practical question, then we're gonna go back to Conversation Street.
## Practical Steps to Becoming a Spiritual Parent
MATT EDMUNDSON: Um, how do you actually start, right? You might be thinking, this is great, Matt, sounds great. Am I just [00:23:00] supposed to walk up to somebody and go curious me? Would you like to be my spiritual father? And you can do it in the accent as well.
Um, now that's gonna be weird, right? I get it. Uh, and I understand that and it can be daunting. So I'm gonna suggest what you do is you look for someone whose life with Jesus you want to imitate. That's the clue, right? Do they have a walk with Jesus that you want to imitate? Not someone impressive. It doesn't have to be your church pastor.
'cause they're probably gonna be like insanely busy. Um. But someone who is faithful. Okay? Then go and ask them if you can grab a coffee. And I think that's about it. It's not a formal request, no contract, just, uh, I'd love to learn from how you follow Jesus. Could we meet up sometime? And if that goes, well ask to meet up again and see where it leads.
Right? And I, to be honest with you, I think most people are honored to be asked. But if they do say, no, don't panic, don't take it as rejection. Something else might be going on. Um, and just [00:24:00] pray and believe that God's gonna lead you to the right person. It's a lot less formal than it sounds, and it just starts with a simple conversation.
And if you are being called to be a spiritual parent, which if you've been walking with Christ for a while, I think you are. If you're not already doing it, um, I would say to you, you are more qualified than you actually think. Right? The gospel makes spiritual legacy possible, even when you didn't have a model yourself.
So don't discount yourself because you didn't have the spiritual father that you wanted, or even the father that you wanted. And actually, just to say your spiritual father can be your father. They don't have to be two different people, okay? Um, it's, it's not about having it all figured out. It's about passing on what you've received from your Heavenly Father.
Okay? So just start with being available for somebody. Invite someone into what you are doing already. This is why I love lodges, because it's, you just come do life with us, man. Come live in the house. [00:25:00] It's, it's not onerous in any way. And maybe just maybe the person that you are waiting for, they might be waiting for you.
Now, if you've never, um, trusted Christ, if you've never come to that place where you've given your life to him, then I appreciate everything that I've said so far might sound a bit like an exclusive club, but there is an invitation, right? God is the Father from whom all fatherhood flows. Every good experience of fatherly love you've ever had is a shadow of the love of Father God.
And every absence, every wound, every disappointment, he's the father that can actually heal that, okay? And Jesus came so that you could be adopted into God's family. Not to earn your way in, but just be adopted. And that's where it starts becoming a child of God. Just being adopted. Right. And if you wanna know more about that, you can check out the live stream we did on adoption a few weeks ago.
It goes [00:26:00] into it in much more detail. Or just reach out to us at Crowd. We'd love to introduce you to Christ. I'll just pray wherever you are. Just like Jesus, let's do this, man. Um, and it'd be great to have a spiritual father along the way too, you know? And once you've experienced the Father, I think you've then got something to pass on.
So, just to say, again, everyone needs a father and everyone I think, is called to become one. So that's it from me. Chaps, back to you.
## Conversation Street: Reflecting on the Talk
Dan Orange: Thank you, Matt. That was, that was great talk. No, I wasn't gonna go. That wasn't, that wasn't, you know, mediocre. That was, that would be funny though,
MATT EDMUNDSON: one day, wouldn't it? Yeah.
Yeah. That was about a six, outta 10 that Matt, if I'm honest with you.
Dan Orange: No, that was a really good talk. Lots to, lots to think about there. Um. It's great, isn't it, to have, for those in that situation, to have someone to look up to, to have someone that's faithful. [00:27:00] You go, yeah, I like what they're doing. Um, I want to get, I want to be like that, I want to, to live like that.
Um, perhaps we'll come back to that, but
Will Sopwith: yeah, what would you take? Yeah, I'm, I'm thinking of saying there's so much to come back to in, in a sense, um, in that, and, and it'd be great to to pick up on, on a few of those, those points. I wish I'd be making notes actually. But, um, the, the first thing that really sticks with me, actually, Matt and I love the way you're talking about that, that kind of analysis paralysis and information sort of overload and thinking about, I.
I'm thinking about a biological father relationship, but also a spiritual father relationship that actually having somebody that you can go to with all that information, armed with all that information, all those opinions, all those kind of, particularly around decisions, but, but just generally, and actually, you know, it, it's something you, you kind of do around the dinner table a little bit as a family.
It's like, what do you think about this? Because [00:28:00] you know that the person you're talking to is absolutely for you and can be absolutely trusted. And to have that kind of level of relationship where there's, you know, there's no ulterior motive, there's no agenda. And you can ask the stupid question and they're not gonna make fun of you.
And that sort of ability to kind of begin to pass through that kind of information, um, particularly as, as you're at different phases of life, um, that, that really struck me as like Yeah. That, that's quite a unique relationship, isn't it? Yeah. You, you can pay for therapy. You, you can pay for a coach or a mentor and, and they, you know, they, they do their bit, but they're a kind of, they're a kind of service you're paying for, you can talk to friends, but you're never entirely sure where they've got your best interest at heart.
Yeah. People at work, all, all those different relationships, you wanna build that level of trust. But a father you absolutely know. And, and I, I love that. That quote that you kind of passed on from whoever about, you know, that, that they, they, they actually want you [00:29:00] to, to surpass you. Yeah. Um,
Dan Orange: perhaps that's a, that's quite a good definition between what Matt talked about right at the beginning, the sort of, the lots of online information that we get.
You know, this is how you should live life, dah, dah, dah, dah. That doesn't have that, um. Intimacy. Yeah. With it that doesn't have that I can tell you anything and you are not going to, you know, remember it or blast it up, um, and post it around. We're just gonna be able to talk and you be able to ask that stupid
Will Sopwith: question is, it's not actually online thing isn't, I'm, I'm definitely not gonna comment on that chat because who knows what will happen and what trolling I might get in response, you know, but, but here's a relationship.
I can just be Yeah, completely vulnerable, completely honest. Um, risk, the stupid question. Um, but also. It's a bit of a filter and, and I think for my own father being blessed in this, of being able to come to him with a confusing amount of information and say, well, well, what do you think? Yeah. And, and hearing, [00:30:00] you know, in being able to sort of, well, yeah, ignore that and, and that, that's actually rubbish and in my experience, yeah.
This is maybe some truth in this, but what about this? And you, you talked very nicely about an example where Dave gave you an alternative perspective and, and how often, particularly as younger people, we've not really necessarily seen all the perspectives and that comes with that kind of wisdom and being a little further down the path and having someone that you can absolutely trust.
To have those conversations with is, um, yeah, it's Diamond. It's really good. Oh, it's unbelievable,
MATT EDMUNDSON: isn't it? And I, and again, I, I think one of the things that I thought of as you, as you guys were talking, you know, the online stuff, um, we listen to podcasts, right? So, um, and if you are outside the church, you may listen, I don't know, Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, these guys all have super large podcasts, right?
Um, if you're inside the church, I like Tim Keller, I like Jim, uh, Greg Gelle from Life Church. All these kind of podcasts I'll listen to, and I think they're great. But none of them know my name. No. Right. [00:31:00] Um, and I, and in my head, I've got the Cheers theme from the aist TV show. Do you know what I mean? Where everybody knows your name.
Yeah. If you dunno what I'm talking about, just, just go to YouTube and watch the Cheers, uh, uh, theme. But it's, they don't know me. They're not invested in me. Yeah. They're not invested in my life. Now, sure, they're gonna have an expert opinion and insight into various things, which I can find super helpful.
But what I find fascinating is we're in a culture now where I will, where it's easy to listen to say Jordan Peterson's podcast. But then when you talk to your spiritual father or your pastor or even your own dad, you dismiss what they say. 'cause they're not Jordan Peterson. Mm-hmm. Yet your dad over here, he knows your name.
Mm-hmm. And he's invested in you. Mm-hmm. Right. Whereas, whereas, and it's not, I'm not dismissing what they're saying, I'm just like, you've gotta look at the, the relationship that's involved in the passing on of that information. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I have no doubt these guys are [00:32:00] given their best information on their podcasts, but it's like none of them are taking the time to come and see me and talk to me about it.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. 'cause Dads do that.
Dan Orange: Yeah. Yeah. Relationship is the, that is it, isn't it? That's the key. Someone that knows how you live your life, what you do with your life. Like, you, you, you kept saying, we do life together. That that's it. Um, and that, you know, looking at.
We're looking at spiritual fathers, but a heavenly father. That's the difference, isn't it? Between I think Christianity and a and other religion. It's, it's that relationship. He knows my name. Yeah. Yeah.
Will Sopwith: And, and one of the, one of the real cause there that, that, that kind of fascinates me, and maybe we could just riff on this a bit, is, I mean, Christ is incarnate you, it's kind of an old word.
You, you hear that Christ in carner, um, and incarnate basically means in body. So Christ is God in body. And, and if you stop and think and go, what's that about? Why, why did God not just [00:33:00] continue to kind of give the edicts, give the content? What, what is it about Jesus coming, becoming a man in, in a kind of, just a very normal, quite impoverished situation on earth?
Why is that important? And when you begin to think about it, it's, yeah, that, that is. Completely transforms that whole, that's what enables you to have a relationship. Yeah. Because he is relatable. Yeah, because came came as a man and actually the model of Jesus with his disciples doing life, you know, just, it wasn't about.
It wasn't just about his sermons, it wasn't about, and, and it's kind of frustrating 'cause in, in scripture we've kind of got the things that Jesus said. We do have descriptions of what he did as well. But those guys saw him and, and saw his response to every, everything and, and saw literally they, they did life with him for those three years.
And I think that's so much more about. Then applying that to different [00:34:00] dilemmas they had. It's like, oh, did, did Jesus do a sermon on this thing that I've come across? And we get that completely now because the world is entirely different. Yeah. From 2000 years ago in the Middle East. And so it's like, well, yeah, the Bible doesn't say anything about topic A, B, and C, that that's currently a big issue in our culture.
It's like, well, well no, it doesn't have to. 'cause it's not about the word, it's not about the content. It's not about the cerebral, it's about looking at the life of Christ. 'cause he came incarnate, he's in body, he's relatable. And then applying what you see into now and, and, and I think that's really, that really sets apart Christianity.
It's not, it's not the list of rules. Yeah. It's not the list of wise sayings. It's somebody, and, and I think that's what you're talking about with spiritual fathers. Yeah. The, the, the added value. Of seeing someone's life, seeing how they respond, understanding, uh, what makes them tick is a whole different relationship to Yeah.
Again, the [00:35:00] content producers and, and or reading a book Yeah. Or, or whatever else. Um, that might, might give some very good stuff to guide, but actually having someone alongside you that you are Yeah, yeah. That you can see and
Dan Orange: relate
Will Sopwith: to
Dan Orange: is Yeah. Entirely different. Yeah. Yeah.
## Evening Reading with My Son
Dan Orange: We, me and, um, me and my son, um, in the evening we read a few chapters of their grills, has written a book, the Greatest Story Ever Told, which is really good.
And it, and it. It does a lot of that. It tries to put in some of the things that the disciples were talking and how they were just doing life, you know, mucking around and, and, and some things you think, oh, we're not sure about that. Not sure about that. Or Oh, yes. You know, they, they just had to be together and they had to learn and, um, yeah.
I love that. Yeah. That sort of, that relationship there. Yeah. No, that's
MATT EDMUNDSON: really good.
## Spiritual Fathers and Age
MATT EDMUNDSON: Um, the, going back to the comments, Ellis has said, do you have to be younger than your spiritual father, both age [00:36:00] wise and age in Christianity wise?
Dan Orange: That's, I was thinking about when Matt was talking. I was like, well, I've, my.
My biological father is a spiritual father to me. He's, um, he started the church that I grew up in. He, you know, an evangelist. I've learned lots and lots for him, but also Matt is one of my spiritual fathers as well, and he's, he's a little bit older than me. Um, not much, but yeah. Yeah, he's a year or so. And, um, I've probably been, probably in a Christian perhaps longer than that.
Yeah. But his, his life, um, aspects in his life started, um, sort of earlier than me. He got married before me. Um, kids, um, started doing this stuff in the church, so I learned from him. Um, so in terms of age wise, no. I don't think it has to be an age thing at all. [00:37:00] Um, but spiritually, yes. I think you, you want someone that's, yeah, that's gone through stuff that has asked those questions.
They won't know everything, but mm-hmm. Yeah. Is that one step
Will Sopwith: ahead, someone a little further down the track, I think was the phrase you used now, which I think was helpful. But that doesn't have to be like in everything. No. So, so you may have someone that's. You know, that's younger than you, that's actually got an aspect of the relationship to God that you know nothing about.
And you look at them and go, well, what's going on there? It might be a particular spiritual gifting or a particular situation they're in, and actually they could just as well 'cause they're further down the track on that, that you could just as well have that sort of relationship with them.
## Paul's Advice to Timothy
MATT EDMUNDSON: Well, Paul said, um, Ellis, to answer your que the thing that came to my mind when I read your question, uh, Paul said, um, let no one, and he's writing to Timothy.
Okay? And Timothy is his spiritual son. Uh, so Paul is, um, the spiritual dad. Timothy is a spiritual son. He says, let no one despise you for your [00:38:00] youth. Mm. Uh, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Okay? Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of scripture, to exhortation, to teaching.
And do not neglect the gift that you have. Okay? Um, and so he goes on to say, do not rebuke an older man, but encourage him as you would a father. Okay? So he's now given some really interesting direction on how to deal with this.
## The Role of Spiritual Fathers
MATT EDMUNDSON: Um, do not rebuke an older man, but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers, older men, uh, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, all impurity.
And I think, I think that's really important. Um, like you say, I think age. Is not necessarily what's important. Like we're at this life stage now, aren't we? Uh, where that, our pastor here at this church is younger than us right now. For the longest time, Nick and Dave were our pastors, and they were [00:39:00] always older than, and that's what we grew up with in our Christian faith.
Right? Yeah. I certainly, I did. And then John Harding becomes a pastor, which if you've been around Crowd for a while, you would've seen John on some of the earlier live streams when he was a pastor. He was our e he was our sort of peer, wasn't he similar sort of age. And now Jack and Jen, who you'll also have seen on the live stream, they're the pastors of Frontline, the senior pastors.
Well, they're younger than us. And so it's this really interesting dynamic as you, as you go through the Christian life and journey. It's like, well, where do your, where are the pastors? Where do they lie? Um. And so, yeah, I don't think it's an age thing. I think it's a maturity thing. Um, and actually I think it's incumbent on us as what you would probably term if I'm allowed to chaps, we're the elders.
Right. Um, it's incumbent on us to allow the younger generation to take on some of this responsibility. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Like we become the grandfather and we watch others become the fathers in many ways. Mm-hmm. And so all I'd say is if you are younger than me, don't rebuke me. [00:40:00] Encourage me. 'cause that's in the Bible.
Hope that answers your question. Yeah.
Dan Orange: Well said. Mm. Yeah. I, I.
When, when, when it was, Matt was talking and we just talking then through the talk, I thought, don't those that do you, those of you that know God, don't miss out on being a father. I do feel like that some of my life, I, I did miss out on that. God had taught me so much and I've done life with him and I, I was a father, you know, different things in the church and people I'd know and they, they look up, up to me.
Um, but didn't, didn't sort of accept that it didn't take that on. I think don't, don't miss out on that. Opportunity to, to be there. Like I wrote it down here, just be available for people.
## Being Available and Vulnerable
Dan Orange: Make sure you're available for people to ask questions, to be a witness, to be honorable, to be faithful. Yeah. No, that's super critical.
And, and I think
Will Sopwith: I, I mean, I, I'd [00:41:00] add to that 'cause that, that, that sounds quite daunting suddenly. And, and talking about the difference between leadership and being a father is an important one here because as a father, if you're, if you are truly. Being available. Yeah. And trying to do life and, and being a bit more vulnerable, that does not mean getting it all right.
It's, it's not like, yeah, I've, I've, I need to have all the answers for this younger person That's kind of looking up to me as a father now. And now if you think about relationship with a father, it, that's exactly it. It's, it's not that. It's seeing the weakness Yeah. As well as the strength. It's learning from the way they do life and obviously that you, you, you want to, you want to draw from, you don't want to, you know, you wanna get the good stuff, I suppose, but the reality of a father.
Child relationship is that you see it all, you, you, you see the kind of warts and all, and you learn from it all. Um, so this is not a position of I'm setting myself up as, as having the wisdom and having it all sorted. Sometimes [00:42:00] actually the importance of having a spiritual father is to be able to go to them and say, I don't understand this.
And then to go, no, I don't either. Yeah. It's like, oh, well if you don't understand. Yeah. You know, and, and, and it's that kind of reassurance of like, hey, we are, we are just all on this journey together. Trying to make sense Yeah. Of stuff. Um, that is again, I mean that's where the trust comes in a relationship.
Yeah. 'cause it's like, well, there's no, there's no front here, there's no agenda. Yeah. You're just being real with me. Yeah. Um, and, and so in, in that position of thinking about whether you're gonna be a spiritual father, you know, we immediately discount ourselves and you said you've done it. I think we would all immediately discount ourselves as not having enough of.
I know what, but, but it's not, you're not putting yourself out there to be a leader and, and have the answers. Mm-hmm. Um, you're putting yourself out there to be vulnerable and available. Yeah. Yeah. And to walk with somebody Yeah. Um, in their confusion as well.
MATT EDMUNDSON: Yeah. Yeah.
## Starting Points for Spiritual Guidance
MATT EDMUNDSON: And I would say that can start. I. At any point in life really.
Yeah. Like one of the things that I, um, when I was in my early twenties, I [00:43:00] was, you know, quite a new Christian. Um, but I could get involved with the kids' work and I could get involved with the, the youth. So when I was, when I was living in, um, the states, I worked in a children's home. I was, I was 18, 19, but I was six years more.
I was six years older than a bunch of the kids that I was working with right now. I wasn't gonna be their father. It was just more like an older brother. Whatever language you want to use. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think at whatever age you, you are at, there's a generation below you that needs your experience and needs your insight and your wisdom and needs to hear what God has so into you.
Mm-hmm. Um, and you can really help them. So. Like when, uh, our kids were younger, like, you know, five, six, and we'd got through the first four or five years and no one had died, which was awesome. Um, it was amazing how many people who were just having kids we would connect with, right? Mm-hmm. We don't, we don't, those [00:44:00] people now just having kids don't tend to come and talk to me about what it's like to have kids.
'cause they're like, that was so long ago. You're gonna be a granddad at some point soon. Mm-hmm. I don't, it's not, Do you know what I mean? They don't wanna talk to me. They wanna talk to somebody with five, 6-year-old kids. And I think, um, that's wonderful. Right? And that, that just means there's somebody.
Around that. You've got some wisdom, you've got some insight that you can sow into them. I do this with family. We, I do it at work. There's all kinds of scenarios. Wherever you, God is giving you time and talent and energy and understanding and wisdom, I think you can use that to do life with somebody and they can sit.
That's the whole thing about doing life, right? It's messy. It's not perfect. Yeah. Um, it just, it it's, they're there when you're shouting. They're there when there's arguments. Yeah. They're there when it's good and you're apologizing, and I think doing that with people, I've said this before, you know, my, my mom and dad divorced when I was nine years old, right.
So the maj, I don't remember much of my life before I was nine. [00:45:00] I have no real memories. I have a few, but not lots. So I, I, I had no idea what it was like to, to witness a happy marriage. Mm-hmm. Right. I just didn't have any until I came to church. Mm-hmm. Here until I joined Frontline and started to do life with Dave and Julie and also Nick and Jen.
I have to shout out to Nick and Jen. They were awesome too. And you do life with these people and, um, Simon and Patti, you know, and Dave and Debbie Anderson and people like that who you'll have no idea who they are necessarily, but these, these are some of the, sort of the founding fathers, if you like, of our church.
And, and we would do life with them. And I got to see a. I got to see what marriage could be, what family could be, not because I read it in a textbook or because Dave sat down and did a Bible study with me, or here's 10 things you need to do Matt. But because I was running their house all the time and I gotta see what it was like when they shout at the kids when they shouldn't do.
Mm-hmm. Not that they would ever do that, obviously. I think it's probably [00:46:00] made that bit up. Um, do you mean, or when, when Dave and Julie had an argument and I was there and it's like, okay, I now get to see what's going on here. And I learned more about being a Christian dad and being a Christian husband, just hanging out in their house, doing life with them than from any other source of material other than scripture.
Will Sopwith: Yeah. I
MATT EDMUNDSON: would say. Yeah.
Will Sopwith: Yeah. No, absolutely.
## The Importance of Community
Will Sopwith: And I think, I think that is the beauty of what the church could be and should be. And I mean, this is a slightly odd scenario 'cause we're not here in person with you and, and this is a broadcast and, but it's just so important to have that community that you can.
Be proximal with, you know, just be together with and, and, and see some of that unscripted stuff. 'cause it that, that's it, isn't it? It's the unscripted, it, it, when you write a book, you kind of like, you've got a, you've got a, a plot, you've got a structure, you've got, these are my, these are my points. And, and you select things when you're doing life.
It's completely unscripted and it's everything.
MATT EDMUNDSON: Yeah.
Will Sopwith: Um, and, and that is really powerful. Um, and I think [00:47:00] I, I really like your challenge today that we are all part of that. Whether, whether we're seeking it or, or, or giving it. And I think, I mean, for me, that the memory of having kids Yeah. Was a really good one because that was like, I don't know what I'm doing.
And you, so you, you gravitate towards people that's like, oh, you've been doing this a few years. How do you do this? And they go, I don't know. And, and, and you, you, I think a whole load of friendship groups started at that point. Yeah. Naturally. 'cause you kind of coalesce with people. So maybe a starting point for you, if there's something that you are, you just don't have the experience of, or, or a part of your life that you, you're kind of entering into.
It's like, I, I've not been here before. Which of course is there are those aspects in all of our lives as, as we grow older. Um, then start looking around and going, who, who could I connect with on, on, on this? Yeah. Who's, who's been there? Who could I begin to have a conversation about? And it, and it actually, I think it's important.
It might be quite a temporal thing. Like you say, you know, continue to get people asking you what it's like to change nappies or [00:48:00] whatever. It's like, man, that was a long time ago. Yeah. Um, and actually this generation is entirely different of kids. Um, you know, it it, it's great to have a, a Dave Connolly in your life.
Um, but that, again, that can feel quite, quite daunting. And sometimes maybe it's just, it's just quite a time limited thing where you're needing that kind of, that spiritual fatherhood or you could give that spiritual fatherhood.
Dan Orange: Um, so on, on that point then, so we sort of alluded to it right at the beginning is that this is an online church where.
We're here, you know, physically, but if you are listening and you are new to the faith, you don't have, like Matt didn't have that sort of view of what marriage was, what good fatherhood is. Where do you, where do you go?
MATT EDMUNDSON: That's a good question. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a shameless plug to the Crowd communities, um, because you know, I've got the mic.
Why not? Um, so every, if you're not in a community and would like to come join a community, we have communities that meet on a Wednesday night, British time. [00:49:00] Um. Uh, de uh, that obviously is gonna depend whereabouts you are in the world. So get in touch with us and let us know if you're interested. Um, we're also gonna start an alpha course in January.
Just wanna say that as well. But we're gonna, we do do communities on Wednesday night if you would like to come and be part of that. 'cause community is phenomenal. And we talked about this last week, didn't we, with the coin only thing. And it's just, it's just a beautiful thing. And it's a beautiful way to, beautiful way to grow your faith.
You will meet people in community who are older than you in the faith and will take on quite naturally that spiritual father, mother type role with you. Um, and the way that we do it at Crowd, we can't always be in person. With each other, but we text each other all the time. Um, and it's not always, you know, bible verses and, and prayers.
Quite often I'm texting people just whatever weight I'm lifting in the gym, just, you know, 'cause you're doing life right? Um, or whatever just happens to be on the dinner table in front of me. All the sunset that I'm seeing right now and doing life together. So there are [00:50:00] ways that you can make it work. Um, but of course, so if you are new, do get in touch.
If you're new, sorry to the Christian faith and aren't in a community, we would love to hear from you. We would love to help you get established in one.
Dan Orange: Yeah. Brilliant. That was a good answer. But there might, but be active as well. 'cause there may be people around you that you've seen, um, but do, do look to see, are they faithful?
Do they. Do, which is the right, right way? Do they do what they say? Do they say you know, what they do? Um, or is it just, is it just words? 'cause Yeah, you need to, if you're gonna look up to someone, up to, up to someone that is mirroring, you know, the father, the heavenly father.
MATT EDMUNDSON: Yeah. And it's really important, again, just to make sure.
This principle that a spiritual father is not a spiritual controller. Yes. Right. In the church we had this phrase, um, heavy shepherding, which you may or may not be familiar with, but what this was about was you couldn't, there was a [00:51:00] phase in some churches, I think it was in the seventies, early eighties maybe, um, where you couldn't make a decision without first consulting your pastor, pastor, should I buy a new car?
Pastor, should we go out to eat tonight? It's like this, this became, this was accountability that went way too far. This was a spiritual father role that went way too far, I think, and became controlling. So spiritual controller is not what I'm talking about. A spiritual father's quite releasing, um, because a dad's gonna let you make your own mistakes.
Mm-hmm. Um, and he'll be there when you make them. He'll give you his opinion, like with my own kids. Right. I'll tell them what I think. Um, it's up to them whether they listen to it or not, but that doesn't mean if they don't listen to it, I'm not gonna be there if it doesn't work out. Right. Right. Um, and also if they do the opposite of what I say and it works out really well, I'm the first one to go.
That's awesome. Right. So I think. When you are searching out spiritual father, that's what you are looking for. Someone that, that will be [00:52:00] alongside you, um, and will help you. They'll guide you, but they are not making decisions for you. Um, they're, they're helping you make the decision. They're helping you hear God for yourself.
And if you make the wrong decision or you get it wrong, they're still there in the morning and they're gonna help you, um, you know, still keep going, right? Because that's what we do. Yeah.
Will Sopwith: I think, I think one, one other thing I just wanted to, to say before we finish, and you mentioned it about your, your biological father being a spiritual father.
And, and I think that's really important. And, and this is not just for those that don't have a parent figure, um, for whatever reason or not in touch with their parent figure. Um, a spiritual father can bring something slightly different from your, your natural. Parents. Um, I've got a great relationship with my parents, but actually over the years, having other voices in that has been really, really helpful.
Mm-hmm. And my son's outta stage when he, he's, he's away from home and, and he talks about someone as a spiritual [00:53:00] father. Now I don't feel like, oh. Been replaced. It's not about that at all. One of the beauties of the church, and, and, and you see it in Jesus when, when he's, he's talking to the crowds and, and his mother and brothers come to the door and, and someone at the door says, oh, your, your mothers and brothers are here.
And say, well, these, these are my mothers and brothers. And he talks to the disciples about, um, oh, we've left our families and our family responsibility is to follow you. And going, yeah, but you, you are gaining so much more in terms of family. And there's that sense of entering God's bigger family. And it's not competitive.
It's not like you are, oh, my dad was no good, so I'm gonna seek another spiritual father or mother. Um, it, it's, you get to actually have a lot of other voices Yeah. In your life that, that you can build that same trust with. And that's a really good Yeah. Thing to have. And it's a real gift.
Dan Orange: Yeah. And also there's things that you find easier to ask someone who's not your biological father that you can talk to.
Yeah.
Will Sopwith: And we all have a lot of kind of baggage from our own sort of families that [00:54:00] it's actually sometimes quite helpful to unpack with somebody who's outside of the situation. You can bring a different perspective on it.
Dan Orange: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Only our heavily fathers perfect. Uh, biological and spiritual fathers here aren't,
MATT EDMUNDSON: aren't
Dan Orange: perfect.
MATT EDMUNDSON: When Paul was in the scripture that we read right at the start when Paul says, you've got countless guys, but all you need is more fathers. It was plural. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's not like you just need a father. Yeah. It's like you need more fathers. Um, and so it's, it's plural. And Al Marshall are good friends of ours.
He's, he's been on Crowd. Do you remember he's, he was talking of, of years ago about the Council of Dads, this book that he read. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That really impacted him, that actually I. Because all our, I mean, not so much Dan, but certainly where my kids are the same age as yours. Mm-hmm. And they're all my son's quite close With your son.
Yeah. My daughter's quite close with your daughter. Our kids are quite close with ours daughters. And it's like, actually the beautiful thing in this whole thing is it's a council of [00:55:00] dad's. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so there's no, there's no threat, there's no competition. I know if Zach goes around your house and starts talking to you, I'm, I'm all for that.
Mm-hmm. Right? Because that's the way it should be. Yeah, absolutely. And it, and you, you have the right to speak into his life. Just like I'll talk to Elias and it's, it's awesome. And I think that's, that's the, you know, that's, I love that, that whole idea. And so I think this idea of, I mean, I've not. Digested the book Council of Dad.
So I'm not necessarily recommending it, but the concept, the principle, I really like the idea. Yeah, yeah. That actually where your own kids are concerned, get them around other spiritual men and women. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Who are, who can talk to them in a different way and have a slightly different relationship with them because they will benefit from that.
Yeah, yeah. In ways which you can't imagine. Yeah. You don't have to be that sole source. Right? Yeah,
Will Sopwith: absolutely. I, I dunno, I said it on Crowd before, but, uh, one of the reasons that kept me in this church and Frontline was that, uh. Literally after about six weeks of coming on a Sunday, I [00:56:00] was only just beginning to work out whose kids belong to who.
And I'd never had that. I'd, i'd, I'd grown up in a church where families were like, they're together. They're there in the meeting. They go together. And, and that was it. There was very little kind of mixing. And I come to this crazy church and the kids are just running around and you're like, oh, I, I thought that was your child.
And it's like, no, but you've got that kind of relationship. And, and again, this is, this is what the church could be. There's this beautiful mixing of, uh, of, of different parent relationships and, and having people that you trust, being able to speak into your own kids and, and, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a lovely, lovely thing.
Yeah. It's, it's, well, how, how are we gonna wrap this up, Dan?
MATT EDMUNDSON: I think we're coming to, yeah. Dan, how are we gonna wrap this up? Dan, your lead host tonight.
Dan Orange: Well, I was thinking, um, so.
## Upcoming Christmas Talks
Dan Orange: It's December, tomorrow. It is coming up Christmas. Some great things are happening. One is that Will loses his, um, [00:57:00] facial fa facial extravagance.
MATT EDMUNDSON: Facial extravagance. Yeah. I love that. The November facial extravagance
Will Sopwith: November can't come soon enough. The end of November. Right.
Dan Orange: Um, and Christmas is coming up, so we've got some Christmas talks. So I Well you are next week. Yeah, I'm next week talking about Christmas and, um, all in the planning. I've been looking at all the different things that came to, had to be together and sort of came Fantastic that day and that time for, for Christmas.
Mm-hmm. Have you got the talk prepared or is just an idea of forming? No, no. It's all the planning. It's a lot more heads.
MATT EDMUNDSON: Yeah. This is, I was gonna say, it'd be a real irony
Will Sopwith: if it wasn't planned. Yeah. At least planned talk. Yeah.
Dan Orange: Yeah. Um, and then we got. Another Christmas talk for an A,
MATT EDMUNDSON: aren't we? Yeah. A's gonna be fantastic on video.
Yeah. So I should talk to him. I dunno if he's on the live stream tonight, but maybe we can get him to come host with us. I'm not, yeah, yeah. That'd be cool. Yeah, because we did that [00:58:00] with Mark Buchanan. We did, yeah. He got tech now, haven't Yeah. Yeah. A
Dan Orange: um, yeah, so see you all, see you all next week. Are we gonna do the Zoom thing? The Yes. Google Meet thing? Remember that? I do. Well, thanks Matt. So after this, we um, come and meet us on, on Google meets. Um, just informal, just chat and Yeah. Doing a bit of life afterwards. So the details I think are in the comments.
Uh, Crowd Church slash meet. Is that right? Go Church, go. I thought I got it right. Yeah, it's got a little SubD domain in there. Yeah. The link is in the comments, so it's gonna, yeah. So just follow that. So it's, click on that.
MATT EDMUNDSON: Yeah, perhaps we'll see you there Indeed. Yeah, come join us in the chat. It'd be good to see you in there.
I'll be in there. 'cause I like doing the chat 'cause the guys have to clean up while I do it. Have to, have to pack down. Um, but yeah, no, I'm looking forward to next week. So [00:59:00] seeing what you've planned. Yes. Which is great. Well, thanks for coming in. Good,
Will Sopwith: good to see you both and thanks Matt for a fantastic talk.
Um, yeah, lots to, I think, I think we did it some justice in conversation, but I think there's lots more to talk. I just think it's such a powerful topic, isn't it? It it's, it, it's so needed
MATT EDMUNDSON: in
Will Sopwith: our society. It really is. It really is. It's very timely. So I think
MATT EDMUNDSON: its, it's, it's so critical and it's, it's wonderful to be able to talk about it.
## Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up
MATT EDMUNDSON: So yeah, we are gonna take a break from the becoming whole teaching that we've had. We're going into the Christmas teaching, um, and services and throughout December and then. In January, we pick up again the becoming whole series teaching. So, um, yeah, I got some good stuff coming up. Anyway, I'm waffling.
Sorry, Dan, over to you.
Dan Orange: Well over to Zoe. Good. Goodbye everyone. Good night next week. Good to see [01:00:00] you.