Rising Above Bias: How to Challenge Discrimination and Embrace Genuine Faith

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Here’s a summary of this week’s sermon:

• John Sloan discusses Acts 7:1-50, which tells the story of Stephen, a man filled with wisdom and faith, who was charged with blasphemy by the Jewish leaders for introducing new perspectives on their religious worldviews. The talk draws a parallel between Stephen's story and the modern-day issues of bias, self-righteousness, and emotional reactions shaping our views and beliefs.

• We examine psychological concepts such as moral intuitions (the inherent sense of what's right and wrong) to explain the biases and the emotional reactions that can influence our interpretation of truth. He references psychologist Jonathan Haidt, who identifies six moral intuitions: care, fairness, group loyalty, authority/respect, sanctity/purity, and liberty. Sloan suggests that people often judge situations based on a few of these intuitions, leading to misunderstandings and conflict with others who use a different set of intuitions.

• The talk challenges Christians, asking them to consider whether their opinions are truly based on the word of God, or if they are coloured by their personal biases and emotions. John urges Christians to strive for integrity by continuously questioning their prejudices and aligning their views with God's teachings rather than their own preconceived notions. He advocates for a broad perspective that transcends narrow worldviews, emphasizing the importance of serving God over personal biases.

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💬 CONVERSATION STREET --

Matt + Dionne discuss:

• As Christians, are we immune from bias? 

• Why do we, as Christians, get easily outraged? What can we do about it?

• “We judge others by their actions but ourselves by our intentions.” True or False?

• Does Satan care about our morals as he does our faith?

• How do you deal with bias in your own life?

• Do our biases always mean that there’s something wrong with us? How can we overcome it?

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• Complete Transcript

  John Sloan: well, hello, um, my name is John Sloan and it's a privilege today to, um, carry on the, uh, series in acts. Uh, and I've been allocated Acts seven, 1 to 50. Uh, but before we look at that, um, I need to tell you who I am. Um, some of you would've met me before, uh, some of you maybe not, but, uh, I'm a retired a and e consultant based near Liverpool.

  Uh, I'm a husband. I'm the father of three, uh, and I am a grandfather to nine, uh, which makes me fairly busy. Um, I'm also a church leader, uh, and, uh, I always start by telling, uh, a medical story as people will know. Uh, but this one is slightly different to previously, um, little girl came home from school and said to her, mum, um, had a lovely day today.

  Her mum said, what did you do? And, uh, the little girl said, well, at school they taught us how to make babies. Well, her mum was really shocked. Um, she ran over to the phone, it was just before school closing time, picked the phone up and got through to her teacher and said, I, I, I've been told that today, um, you, you taught the children how to make babies.

  Can, can you explain what's going on? My daughter's only five. So the teacher said, well, have you asked her what we taught? Um, and the mum said, no. Teacher said, well, go and ask her and then maybe call me back. So mum put the phone down and, and uh, and went back to the little girl and said, um, what did they teach you about how to make babies?

  And the little girl said, well, you take the Y off and add i e s and it makes babies well. It's a sort of medical story. Um, so let's, let's look at, uh, acts 7:1-50. It's a long passage, so I, I've abridged it and I'll read it to you and refer to it. Um, so here we go. Uh, brothers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our father, Abraham, and God said they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.

  But because the brothers were jealous of Joseph, they sold him as a slave into Egypt, but God was with him and rescued him. Eventually, Pharaoh made him ruler over Egypt and all his palace. What a elevation. Then a famine struck all of Egypt and Canaan, and in time Joseph told his brothers who he was. And Pharaoh learned about Joseph's family.

  After this, Joseph sent, sent for his father, Jacob and his whole family, 75 in all. As the time during for God's fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased and years had gone by. Then a new king who, to whom Joseph meant nothing came to power in Egypt. He dealt treacherously with the people of Israel and oppressed all of them by forcing them to throw out their newborn babies so they'd die.

  At that time, Moses was born and he was no ordinary child. Pharaoh's daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. Moses was educated at all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action. After many years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai, and when he saw this, he was amazed at the sight as you would be.

  He went over to get a closer look and he heard the Lord say, I am the Lord. I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob and the Lord said to him, take off your sandals for the place you're standing His holy ground. I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt and I've heard they're groaning and I've now come to set them free.

  Now come, I will send you back to Egypt. This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words "who made you ruler and judge?" Who was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself. That's who through the angel who appeared him in the bush. He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt at the Red Sea.

  And for 40 years in the wilderness, this is the Moses who told the Israelites, God will raise you up. Uh, will Ra will raise up for you, a prophet like me from your own people. But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead they rejected him and in their hearts turned out to Egypt. However, the most high does not live in houses made by human hands.

  As the prophet says, heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house would you build for me, says the Lord. Well, what do we make of that? Uh, let's just define a few things that we've referred to there. Um, who is Stephen? Stephen is first mentioned in acts as one of the seven deacons appointed by the apostles to distribute food and charitable aid to the poorer members of which there were many.

  Uh, in the early church. He's described as being, um, honest, full of the Holy Spirit, full of wisdom, faith, and the power of Prayer. Quite a man. Uh, what was the Sanhedrin? Let's just define that. The word Sanhedrin comes from the Greek term Sunédrion meaning sitting together or Council. The Sanhedrin was both a Jewish judicial and administrative body.

  The Sanhedrin was composed of local elites, including members of the high priestly family, scribes, which were religious experts and lay elders. It had leading scholars and functioned as the supreme religious, uh, educational legal body of the Jews. It also had a political aspect since its head was recognized by the Romans as the political leader of the Jews called Nasi, meaning prince in biblical Hebrew.

  It was a sort of, uh, uh, devolution. This supreme council and tribunal of the Jews was headed by a high priest who had religious, civil and criminal jurisdiction so quite a powerful body. And so Stephen comes before the Sanhedrin, and he's charged. Uh, why was he charged? Well, Steven's behavior and speech so offended the Jewish leaders that they accused him of Blasphemy, he was arrested and charged with speaking against this holy place and the law.

  So the background to the charges made against Stephen, we've already looked at, in Acts six and between verses 8 and 15, we, we see, uh, this being, uh, uh, stated now, Stephen, a man full of grace and power performed great wonders and signs among the people. Opposition arose, however, from members of the synagogue of the Freed Men, as it was called, uh, Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria, as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia

  who began to argue with Steven. The issue is he had new thinking. He didn't think like they thought. They had a way of, of weighing up the world in a religious sense. And Steven came along with a different way of looking at the world, but they couldn't stand up to the wisdom of, uh, of Steven As he spoke, the scripture says, so they secretly persuaded some men to say some bad things about him, and they said, we've heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.

  So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. And so they seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses who testified. This fellow never stopped speaking against the holy place and against the law. We've heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy the place and change our customs Moses handed down to us.

  Well, let's just stop there and have a look at that accusation. It, it, it's often the case that a 50% truth goes through in the minds of people, but actually tears down, uh, somebody that actually said that truth. Uh, in other words, um, they, they were making accusations about him that did actually have tags into his life, but he didn't actually say those things and didn't mean what they accused him of.

  So, to put it in context, Steven was simply stating that the Jews had departed from the leadership of the patriarchs who were dedicated to following God, such as Joseph and Moses. He was perceived by criticizing them and for the Jewish leaders to hear perceived blasphemous words against Moses then would be similar to right now speaking blasphemous words against the Quran or the prophet Muhammad for Muslim leaders. It was bound to cause a serious backlash.

  But to set Steven up, manipulation was gonna be needed. So setting up false witnesses was regarded as perjury, yet in this case was excused. Why? Well, let's exit scripture briefly and enter psychology in which I did my first degree before I did medicine. There is something called moral intuitions, which says that our impartiality can be deceptively absent as soon as we speak of our perceived group, we lose all impartiality it seems.

  The psychologist, Jonathan Haidt, uh, which, uh, I'll just show you his picture here, showed that when someone we regard as being on our team, Seems to have some, seems to have said something false we become really quite distressed and, um, defensive. The moment we're shown a way out. The moment it emerges that our man or our woman might have been right after all, our brains rewards center lights up and pulses of dopamine flood us with pleasure. In other words, seeing someone from our side winning an argument stimulates us and no one is immune.

  Neither religious leaders, politicians or judges. Indeed then and today, the most dangerous people are those who believe they have attained a level of impartiality that alludes the rest of us. Hello. You recognize that? We claim logic and reason, but we're actually acting from gut feelings. Oh, one level. We all know as much. But we had a very interesting example not too long ago, in 2019, momentum supporters were presented with quotations that they were told came from Boris Johnson. Hey, that would've been fun, wouldn't it? To a man and a woman. They're declared the comments, unacceptable, racist, and incompatible being an MP.

  When they were told that the words had actually come from Jeremy Corbin, there was a bit of backpedaling. Let's just look at the claims and the counterclaims regarding Stephen. Uh, the Jewish people actually failed guard on a consistent basis, yet they believed their heritage was impeccable. They were unyielding in believing that they were always right.

  Beware Emmett Louie Till was born in 1941 in Chicago. Here's his photo. He was visiting relatives in Mississippi in 1955, age 14. And while he was there, he was abducted, tortured, and lynched after being accused of offending a white woman. Caroline Bryant. His killers, including her husband, were subsequently acquitted.

  Human beings love to be self-righteous, and this can be so prominent in racism and white supremacy. And today we see a steady rise in virtue signaling. It's usually done in the name of self-righteousness. It's the same sentiment that was being shown to Steven and to Emmett Till. This past week, uh, I was at a funeral, um, in Manchester and we had to take our little dog with us because we were away, uh, too long.

  And we found a, a nice sheltered area. It wasn't hot, it was 16 degrees, um, under some trees. We opened every window and the roof, and our little dog was happy in the car. She's always happy when she knows she's near us. But I was really worried during the funeral to the point that I, I went out in the middle of the funeral and then came back having, uh, checked her because I was worried not for her, but that somebody would call the RSPCA because there was a dog in a car.

  Or maybe someone would, um, break the window, uh, like in this instance to free the dog. Steven understood the bigotry he was up against. God doesn't interest himself in our self-righteousness. Uh, eg man-made buildings constraints or philosophies. Temples and ideologies are our construction. His throne is in heaven and his standards are infinitely above ours. We need to look beyond our narrow worldview.

  Let's go on and look at the real deal. So, uh, what is, uh, the real deal? Uh, let's just read a bit of Joshua 24, where Joshua contrasts Israel's unfaithful with God's faithfulness. This is what the Lord the God of Israel says. We, we read in Joshua 24, long ago, your ancestors lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods.

  But I took your father Abraham, uh, from the land beyond the Euphrates and let him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. And I said, throw away the gods. Your ancestors worshiped in the Euphrates area in Egypt. And serve the Lord. And Joshua said this, but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

  And the people said to Joshua, we will serve the Lord our God and obey him. And this is it. Serving God, not our opinions or bias, conscious or unconscious is very challenging. And I want to ask you, how are you doing? This is such an important question. This is the real deal, and I want to repeat the question.

  Serving God not our opinions or bias is very challenging. How are we doing? So what can we learn? My psychology friend Jonathan Haidt, said There are six main moral intuitions that guide our lives. Here they are. The first is justice and care, the desire to protect others, uh, in all circumstances. The second is fairness, which is my desire to see rules abate.

  The third is loyalty to a group that we stand together regardless. The fourth is authority or respect. The, the, the, the desire to submit, uh, at all times, regardless of my desire to go somewhere else. The fifth is sanctity or purity. Uh, the, the we, we abhor some actions or beliefs, and the sixth was added later, which is liberty. I choose.

  Now some people, according to Jonathan Haidt, uh, judge almost everything by two or three of these, and don't realize that there are moral intuitions other than their own. This fuels on them a sense of anger towards others who see things differently. Meanwhile, others judge the world by a broader number, maybe all six, maybe five, which makes them puzzled by their opponents rather than angry.

  Do we see this today? Researchers have found that people's sensitivities to the six moral foundations correlate with political ideologies. Surprise, surprise. This all leads to the challenge, which is this, to what degree is our worldview opinion-based and general political orientation and an emotional reaction to the world we see around us? We claim logic and reason, but we actually act from gut feelings. We are actually biased choosing an emotive path that suits our hearts, which we then justify in our heads with a supportive, seemingly rational argument.

  Well, for the Christian, this all raises massive issues of integrity. And this is what I draw from this passage today. The way the Sanhedrin dealt with Stephen, the way they, they, uh, glided past what was actually really true to fit in beliefs that just suited their preconceived ideas. So for us, if we want to be Christians of integrity, let me ask this question, is our selfish opinion used to justify some things we feel.

  Or can we be truly honest about what we see in the word of God and base our views on that, not on our unconscious prejudice. Can we be questioning all the time what we are believing based on the word of God? It's a really difficult call and never has it been more challenging than now. I would say I've been a Christian almost 50 years, and I would say that right now with, with our politically correct social media dominant world, this is the most difficult call that it's ever been in my experience.

  But the question is, which world are we called to? Are we called to serve the culture around us? Everything we see. The way we're molded into having to take a certain view. Do we serve that culture or do we serve the one who made the culture? In other words, can we be countercultural to serve the master? I leave that thought with you.

  Matt: Coming up. We have Conversation. Street, but before we get into that, here's a clip from our podcast. What's the story which you can subscribe to on all your favorite podcast apps?

  Sadaf: I opened up this card and she had written these beautiful words to me, and the five that stuck out where you are so valuable to God. And I was just stuck on them. I, I read these words and I couldn't think anything past them. And the more I, um, found myself dwelling on them, the more clear it became to me that the Lord has a purpose for my life. And it's not this, um, I am valuable to him. He's, you know, he's got something more than this.

  Matt: Welcome back to Conversation Street. Uh, it's great to have you back. So what a talk by John and, um, I don't, if you're regular to Crowd Church, I apologize because for whatever reason the scriptures weren't coming up on the first part of the screen. But I think we got a point of what John was talking about, didn't we really?

  Uh, we definitely did get into that. So we are gonna get into that in Conversation Street with John. Uh, but quick shout out to Sadaf. What's the story episode, which you just saw the clip from? That was a great conversation actually with Sadaf, who, um, has hosted on Crowd and she talks, um, in that episode about abuse and being in an abusive relationship.

  And so when she said, um, When she, when she said, you know, those five words, uh, you are valuable to God. Um, and God had a plan for me, and this is not it. That's what she was talking about. So definitely do check out such an honest, brave story. Um, and so do check that out. It is on, uh, the website. You can see that at Crowd.Church, www.crowd.church. Sorry. Anyway, Dionne.

  Dionne: Yes.

  Matt: uh, just the reason you were laughing when we came back was because before we went back on live, um, I asked you if you were dry, which might sound as a bit of an odd question, but apparently during the talk, you went and threw coffee all over yourself.

  Dionne: I, I did, I, I dunno what I was doing. I was fiddling and just whacked like half a cup of cold coffee, which is now down one leg all over the floor. I think in every single one of my filing cabinet drawers.

  Matt: Wow.

  Dionne: I've got some cleaning to do when we're finished here today.

  Matt: Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Uh, that's, I shouldn't laugh, but, uh, this, I'm sorry, I, Dionne actually sent me the photograph during the, uh, during the talk so I can see it. It's just, it's, yeah, I'm just glad it's not me. I'm not gonna lie.

  Dionne: It's It's not great. It's not great.

  Matt: No, no. So let's dig into John's talk about challenging our biases and, um, I mean he, uh, as you would expect with John, great talk, um, he brings in both the scriptural aspect and the medical aspect.

  Did not know John had a degree in psychology. Um, I just thought he was an, a&e consultant. Apparently he is got another degree somewhere. I'm sure he is told me. I just forgot. But you know, this is, this is just John, isn't it? Uh, Mr. Mr. Medical Man now,

  Dionne: Yeah,

  Matt: um, One of the things that he said right at the end there, John, which I thought was really interesting, we posted in the comments, I think, uh, was can we be counter-cultural? He talked about how in his 50 years of being a Christian,

  Dionne: Yeah.

  Matt: what, what was it he said? Uh, it has never been more challenging than now, I would say in our politically correct social media dominated world. This is the most difficult call, which is as Christians to, um, be truly honest about what we see in the word of God and put aside our selfish opinions used, used to justify some of the things that we feel.

  Um, because it's probably fair to say that as Christians, we are not immune from bias, right?

  Dionne: no, I would say that it's a, um, a, a human inevitable in that in some way, shape or form, we all have biases. Um, and I think John's correct when he says, um, when there's those, is it six, um, intuitive biases that, that have been identified?

  Matt: Yeah.

  Dionne: Whether it's how we were raised, our education, the people we hang out with, the country we were born in, the culture that we were raised in.

  I think we all have, have biases. And I think as a Christian, it's really important that we reflect on those, um, potential biases to ensure that they're not influencing the way we behave, the way we treat people, our thought processes. Um, I've just spotted Andy's put a little comment, um, in the chat there.

  It says, um, isn't looking to God and not looking within to fix ourselves, countercultural? Um, I would say yes and no. Um, One. We do need to look to God. That's, I mean, that's for sure, definitely looking to God and to the Bible, to find the ways that we should be thinking about things and the way that, that God thinks about things.

  Um, but actually looking within, that's part of that process. God helps us to look within ourselves to identify those things that need to be changed. Um, I put, wrote a little note here that I didn't get a chance to post onto the, onto the comments that says we can be, um, we can be easily outraged. And I think as Christians, that's something we do really well, is that we're easily outraged by this, by that, by the all. And the Bible tells us that everybody has done something wrong.

  Matt: Yeah.

  Dionne: That includes ourselves. It tells us that everybody deserves mercy. It says God's mercies are new every morning.

  Matt: Yeah.

  Dionne: Our Bible say that Grace is free. And that we should forgive. And actually, if we are leading with those truths, it does lead to less bias.

  Because I, I know from my, just from my own biases, I have a tendency to think that if I do something wrong, then it's, it's somehow justified. I was pushed to it, I had no choice. Whereas if somebody else does something wrong, they are bad, they are wicked, they should be punished. I want justice. Um, and I think that kind of measuring. The fact that we measure people's wrongdoings or what we perceive to be wrongdoings and it's always worse than ours, um, that's a bias.

  Matt: Yeah, it's a really interesting point. There's a great, uh, phrase that I've heard a lot. I think I've mentioned it before on Crowd, but there's this phrase, um, that I, I've heard that we judge others by their actions, but we judge ourselves by our intentions.

  Dionne: Hmm.

  Matt: And that's, and that is so true, uh, in the church, in Christian circles, right?

  Because as Christians, we, we sh we in theory should know better because we do have, like John talked about the word of God. We have scripture. We know what to measure things up against. Um, and so we can tend to excuse ourselves a little bit because of our intentions behind the actions, but when it comes to others, we don't see those intentions.

  We don't know them, and so we judge them just purely by their actions, which is what you're saying, right?

  Dionne: Yeah. And I think we don't take the time to find that out. And so John did raise, or the two things he raised, one was that Steven was, um, at, at least at one point, he was part of that group that were piece persecuting him and, and lying about him to you, into, to get him into this, into this court situation.

  Um, I found that really interesting because we do like to distance ourselves like, oh, I would never do that. When, when actually, you mean they may have just been making excuses as we just discussed about Well, that wasn't our intent. Our intent wasn't to kill Stephen. Maybe our intent was, you mean to defend God's honor, defend God's name.

  Um, we didn't mean it to go this far. And I can see how, I can see how that happens. So I think John explained that really well. Um, in the. Two. Can be part of the Crowd, uh, not realize it. We can be the persecutors and not realize it.

  Matt: yeah,

  Dionne: We can be very harsh judges

  Matt: yeah.

  Dionne: I'm saying that as Christian. I think Christians can be harsh judges sometimes. Um, because of that blindness, about our own biases.

  Matt: Yeah, that's a very fair point. Last week in the livestream we talked about how, um, with the, the guys from the Sanhedrin, there's a, there's a means. Means the means justifies. The end justifies the means philosophy here. Right? So, um, because you have in theory blasphemed and because you are doing all these things wrong, then what we are doing here justifies, uh, We are justified in our action because this is gonna stop it, right?

  This is, this is our bias. The means versus justification. And we talked about this last week, that actually the means, um, or the ends doesn't justify the means. And in a world where we have biased thinking,

  Dionne: Mm-hmm.

  Matt: it's easy to fall into this, and the end justifies the means thinking, right?

  Dionne: It's really hard. It's really hard. Um, especially if you, if you've been wronged or you feel like you've been wronged, it's very easy to, to knee-jerk, react to people. I mean, we see it on the internet all the time, you know, and

  Matt: we do. Yep.

  Dionne: it means the same one person can be anti-bullying one day, but then the next day bullying somebody on the internet because they've got a different opinion to them and saying mean things, badmouthing them to a bunch of other people, you know, saying things that might not be true.

  Um, and it's, it's such an easy trap to fall into. Um, yeah, it's a very easy trap to fall into.

  Matt: No, it is, it's funny because Jesus talks about this, isn't he? He said, you've gotta learn to take the plank out of your own eye before you go and remove the speck out of somebody else's. And I think the thing with bias and discrimination, one of the things for me that's come up over the last few years, because there's been a lot of press coverage hasn't there, about, um, I mean, John touched on racism for example.

  There's been a lot of press coverage, quite rightly so about some of the things that's been going on there. And actually, I can look at things, you know, like there's a lot of conversation, for example, around, um, black Lives Matter and the campaigners and the institution behind it.

  Dionne: Yeah.

  Matt: And I, I can get into those arguments either way, and I, and I I, but that, the point for me in all of this is actually God, what are you saying to me?

  What's the plank that I, I need to take out of my own eye? What is the Holy Spirit pointing on and highlighting? What's the world viewer? What's the lens I'm looking at the world through here and does something need to change in my heart? And that first and foremost, that's got to be the primary thing I think, in all of this, right?

  Dionne: Mm.

  Yes, definitely. I, uh, I mean the whole Black Lives Matter thing I found really difficult. Um, one as a black person, um, but also being around, um, Christians who had very strong opinions either way. So that was really, I found that really difficult and it became very, very polarizing and it meant that it was difficult then for, so things like me trying to talk about, um, racism in church

  Matt: Hmm.

  Dionne: having, you mean very few questions, willing to have that conversation because their, their bias was, well, we are not racist.

  That doesn't happen here. And it was kinda like, oh, okay. So, and it. It, it genuinely was very, very difficult to have those conversations, and I think we have to be open sometimes that, no, I don't think anyone's running around being, you know, overtly racist. I said, well, actually there are some, you mean procedures, cultural ways that we work that exclude people or there certainly have been, um, And being in a position where we're open enough to have those conversations without, um, you know, doing that thing where we, where we assume ourselves to be holy and righteous. And that would never happen.

  Matt: Yeah.

  Dionne: Um, but it's, it's hard. It's, it's really, really hard. And even for someone like, you know, John Sloan, who's been a Christian for 50 years, acknowledges how difficult it is. Um, and I think all we can do is continue to be honest with ourselves, but also allow other people to be honest with us.

  Um, and I think the community, it's really important that we have good friends and, you know, good Christian brothers and sisters who can say, Hang on, Dionne, I, you mean I've seen this and have you had a little think about how that's impacting somebody else, or, you know, you need to maybe have a little reflect on that.

  Um, and I do think it's, it's important, but it's, it's really hard. It's challenging.

  Matt: Yeah, it is, it is. Um, and is putting the comments here, um, does Satan care about our morals as he does our faith? Um, Andy, I, I don't know, Dionne, if you've got any thoughts on this? I'm, I'm, I'm not sure I understand the question, but, um, so if you can maybe give us a bit more information.

  Dionne: I have a thought. Um, I

  Matt: Of course you

  Dionne: that,

  Matt: do.

  Dionne: Hey, stop being cheeky. I think that morals are, can be a barrier to faith

  Matt: Hmm.

  Dionne: is what I think. And I think that Satan can use. You mean our, if we believe that we are of good moral standing, that I don't do bad things, that I'm always good to people. It's actually a barrier to faith and believing in God and coming to that place of repentance and reconciliation with God.

  So I don't think it's it that Satan doesn't care about morals. I think that morals can be a tool to keep us from God.

  Matt: That's a really interesting viewpoint. Really interesting viewpoint. It's one of those things, isn't it? Where, um, you are right that, uh, we call that in the church, self-righteousness don't we in a lot of ways. Um, and a lot of times self-righteousness is very understated, or very understated is the wrong word. I think it goes unrecognized in ourselves

  Dionne: Yeah.

  Matt: because we think we're being virtuous. Um, but it's actually, it's actually interesting, isn't it? Again, coming back to the bias thing. So how do you. Um, how do you deal with bias in your own life? Um, Dionne, how, how do you stay on top of all of that, do you think?

  Dionne: Right. So my, it's funny actually. So my, I've, I've, I've recognized my biases in different ways than John talked about. So John talked about kind of like political leanings and, and culture. My biases have come about through trauma. So having a particular dislike for a certain sort of person, um, ha has come about through my own, kind of like personal trauma and, and like bad things that happened really.

  And I think a lot of people have had that in one, in, in, um, some way or other. So, That is where I've had to really dig deep. And I'm not gonna lie, I, I did therapy to get, to get a handle of some of my biases. Cause those biases were, um, embedded in trauma and then they were reinforced by my own poor thinking.

  Um, and actually in order to undo that, I had to go to therapy to try and, you know, work that out. I didn't do that. Um, you mean without God? So I, I obviously, I prayed and I've shared in groups and had support from church. Um, but that they, but I also needed that help with my, um, With my broken thinking. And I did have a lot of broken ways of thinking.

  And so I needed, therapy was about teaching me new ways of thinking and about being able to be impartial and remove my own pain and trauma out of my responses, out of my thought patterns and things like that. Um, a and again, I think it's something we don't really talk about in Christian circles enough that

  Matt: Mm

  Dionne: sometimes our biases can stem, stem from pain, can stem from, you know what I mean? Life-changing incidents and things like that, that we, we need to bring all that to, to God. We, we do, we need to bring all that to God, get the help that we need to challenge and remove those biases. But that could be a lifelong journey.

  Matt: That's super powerful. I mean, super powerful. You, you know, that bias here is not just something that I was taught at school. It's not just. Um, I mean, it can be, you know, bias can come from that. It can come from your upbringing, it can come from your family, it can come from the neighborhood you grow up with and the friends that you had.

  But also it can come, like you say, from the hurts and from the experiences and from the trauma and the abuse and from all these things that happen to us, um, we can start to see things with a bias. So it's, it's not just because I think sometimes people hear the word bias and think if you accuse me of being biased, which is probably what happens in the church, we don't like to be told we're wrong.

  Um, if you, if you accuse me of being biased, then something's wrong with me rather than saying actually, um, if I am biased in some way. Is that, That's something that I need to understand, and that might not be something that's necessarily wrong with me. It might be something that has happened to me. It might not be something that has been a conscious choice on my part, but it's now my conscious choice to sit down and unpick that with the help of the Holy Spirit and go, Lord, what are you? What are you saying to me here? Right?

  Dionne: I think there is a, there is like a, a psychological term that they use called, um, emotional intelligence. And it's something that I didn't really understand, but it's that, that process of coming to the realization that I might have issues. I might have biases, and actually those are things that I, within myself, without judging myself harshly, but ju just understanding that because of something happened to me or because of the home that I grew up in, or because of the place that I was raised, whatever the reason is, we can, we all have things that that's a fact.

  We all have things, but actually being mature enough to acknowledge that, okay, that I've still got things I need to work on. Um, and it's okay to have things, we still need to work on. This whole notion of a perfect Christian who is completely unbiased. Um, it's, it's funny, I was actually praying about this last week, um, and I was thinking, oh, I should, I should write something about this.

  I wanna write something about this. Um, trying to aspire to be the perfect Christian. Um, and actually it's, it's a journey, um, becoming unbiased is a journey, um, in the natural sense, but also in our walk with Jesus, with the help of the Holy Spirit. Um, and like the Holy Spirit is gentle with us. It mean he'll help us to acknowledge things without it being a judge.

  Judgey, finger wagging, you are so bad. So the Holy Spirit doesn't work like that. We do that as people, as human beings. But Holy Spirit doesn't do that. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's a journey. It's a challenge. And I, I, I think that as we grow and continue to grow, that you mean, I, I hope we get better. I, I hope we get better. I believe we do. We do get better.

  Matt: Yeah. I think, you know, again, um, I think it's been an interesting few years, hasn't it? For our society, for our culture, and I think as Christians we also have the help of the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit has part of the deal is the Holy Spirit has a love for everybody, right?

  So fundamentally, um, every person on the planet, man, woman, child, regardless of who they are, where they live, how they were brought up, are all equally valuable before God and part of the Christian journey is allowing the Holy Spirit to, to breathe that love for people inside you. And part of that love for people is being willing to acknowledge that actually maybe you are slightly biased. Um, and you know, just cuz you give them tea and a hot chocolate on a Sunday doesn't mean you're not biased.

  And let's just be, you know, real about that. Um, but no great conversation. And um, yeah, andy's just put that in the comments. We are God's children. We are absolutely God's children. And I think, I'm not saying, uh, if you are not a Christian watching this, um, you know, I'm not, we're, as you can tell, we're not saying the church is perfect in any way.

  We serve a perfect God in an imperfect way. We are imperfect people. Um, but it's, I'm really, I, for one, I'm really grateful for the conversations like this, you know, that actually churches are starting to talk about this and asking Holy Spirit, how can you help us? How can you. Where do I need to go here with this?

  Um, but that's been awesome. Dionne, any closing remarks from you on this whole topic as we near the end of Conversation Street?

  Dionne: Um, I think my only comment would be that I think, just to reiterate that acknowledging our own biases is not a, it's not a harsh criticism

  Matt: Mm-hmm.

  Dionne: not to go away, go away and be, you know, hating on yourself because, oh, I may have been biased in this, that, and the other. And understand that actually as part of growing, as a human being, growing as a Christian, that inevitably we identify things in ourselves that need to change.

  And that's actually, that's a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit that is, you know, bringing out good fruit, bringing us, uh, you know, it's causing us to change and become more and more like Jesus every day. So don't be afraid of, you know, identifying things in yourself that may not be great. That's okay. God's done that in order to sh to bring us to a place of change.

  Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Bring it to God and let him help you, uh, through the whole thing. Uh, definitely. That's awesome. Dionne. Thanks for joining me for Conversation Street. I enjoyed that conversation. Uh, it's, um, I appreciate these things aren't always easy to talk about, but I'm, I'm, like I said, I'm glad we're doing it.

  You know, that's what we like to do here at Crowd we like to talk about things that maybe we shouldn't necessarily talk about, cuz we can.

  Dionne: Why not?

  Matt: Why not? Why not? When you do it with amazing people like you, it becomes easy. So, uh, it's, it's great. So what we got going on, the comments here, just a reminder, there's no zoom calls this week.

  So Matt Crew is on it. You must have put this. So, uh, for those of you new to crowds, we have midweek community groups, like on Zoom, but this week, uh, the community groups take a break, um, because it's half term. Uh, here in the UK it's a holiday. So, uh, yeah, we, we uh, we're taking a break, but if you would like to join our community group, if you would like to find out more about how to get plugged in and connected to what we're doing here at Crowd, do head over to the website if I can find the little, um, I've not got my usual tools with me, so I dunno where anything is anymore.

  Normally have buttons. There you go. Put the website on the screen www.crowd.church. You can reach us on social media @Crowd Church. Um, and we would love to help you get plugged in, uh, and connected. Uh, but more information is available on Crowd Church about the community groups, about, you know, about the Christian faith.

  If you wanna find out more about the Christian faith and how Jesus helps us live a more meaningful life, you can, there's all kinds of stuff on there. It's a brilliant resource. Um, even if I do say so myself, not perfect, but brilliant, bit like me, really not perfect, but brilliant. So, what's happening next week?

  Dionne: Right. You're trying, you're trying to pick my brain now here. If I remember, next week is the wonderful John Farrington who will be,

  Matt: but close.

  Dionne: is it Pete Farrington?

  Matt: Yeah, it is he.

  Dionne: Oh, okay. There's some guy that coming next week. Mr. Farrington will be you next week giving us the next installment of the story of Stephen. So this will be post court case, um, to you will we'll be discussing the outcome of the court case, so tune in.

  Matt: yeah. Tune in next week, maybe come make sure you do come join us. Um, the final part by Mr. Farrington, and if my daughter, uh, or children are watching this live stream, they see Mr. Farrington as Mike Farrington, who in fact is Pete Farrington's dad who teaches at their school. So, uh, so even the kids go, Mr. Farrington's coming on Crowd.

  Dionne: Well, I think it's pretty clear to see. I have no idea who this person is.

  Matt: That's really funny. Yeah. I'll, I need to get you to meet Parrington and so, uh, we can get all that sorted out. But that was brilliant. That was brilliant. Well, listen, thank you so much everybody for joining us today on Crowd. Thank you for your comments. Um, join us next week at 6:00 PM. Sorry, I'm laughing cuz Matt has literally wrote it in the comments.

  Um, join us next week, uh, for 6:00 PM for, the next installment of Stephen's story, uh, with, uh, Pete Farrington. I know him. That's the main thing. He's gonna be great. Pete's been, uh, on Crowd before doing some teaching before, so he's gonna be great. We're gonna close this sort of mini chapter on Stephen, uh, next week.

  So I think Dan Orange is hosting next week, uh, with John Harding, so I think you've got those two as well. So it's gonna be great. I'll be watching? Uh, I think next Sunday. I'm in Portland, Oregon, so I'm getting about, so yeah. We'll, you know, we'll see you. It's, it's great. Have a fantastic week, boys and girls. Uh, been great to speak to you and Dionne thank you so much for doing this with me. It's been great fun.

  Dionne: No thank you. Other than spilling coffee all down my leg. It was fantastic.

  Matt: Yeah, don't, don't do that. I said when you send me the text message saying I've spilled coffee or done myself, I said my response was okay. I thought you were supposed to drink it, but Okay. Whatever floats your boat. Brilliant. Alright. God bless, boys and girls, and ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much.

  Dionne: Okay. Goodbye.

  Matt: Bye for now.

  Thank you so much for joining us here on Crowd Church. Now if you are watching on YouTube, make sure you hit the subscribe button as well as that little tiny bell notification to get notified the next time we are live. And of course, if you are listening to the podcast, uh, the Livestream podcast, make sure you also hit the follow button. Now by smashing the like button on YouTube or writing a review on your podcast platform.

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  It has been awesome to connect with you and you are awesome. It's just a burden you have to bear. And hopefully we'll see you next time. That's it from us. God bless you.