When You Don't Fit at Church
A man with leprosy walks straight up to Jesus in the middle of a crowd. He's not supposed to be there. By the rules of his day, he isn't supposed to be near anyone — no temple, no community, no touch. He brings none of the right offerings. He doesn't even bring the right disease (this one was incurable). He just kneels in front of Jesus and says, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
That word — willing — is the one Mike Harris centres on. It's the question underneath nearly every prayer most of us are too embarrassed to pray out loud. Not "can God do this?" but "would He want to?" Mike, a former PE teacher of fifteen years now working as a gardener in Liverpool, took the second talk in our Jesus the Revolutionary series and used this short passage from Mark 1 to dismantle the lie that quietly keeps people away from God — and away from church.
The Lie That Keeps Us at the Back of the Room
The lie sounds reasonable. Sort yourself out first. Get cleaner. Get sober. Get your marriage in better shape. Get your head straight. Then turn up. Then God might be interested.
Mike confessed at the start that he was the kid in the schoolyard with the talent, the kid who ended up captain, the kid picking teams. "I was heartless," he admits. "I can remember saying, oh, you can have them, we don't want them." He was seven, eight, nine, ten years old. And while he laughs about life eventually getting its own back on him in adult football clubs, the picture still resonates with many of us. Most of us have stood on both sides of that wall — the one doing the picking, and the one waiting to be picked.
The man with leprosy in this story has been on the wrong side of that wall for years.
What Actually Happened on That Hillside
To feel the weight of what Jesus does next, the context matters. Leprosy in this period wasn't a moral failure — Mike is careful to point that out. The book of Leviticus, chapter 14, lays out what happens when you have a skin disease. Torn clothes. Shouting "unclean" so people can step away. Living outside the camp. No temple. No family meals. The closest comparison Mike could think of was the early days of the pandemic, when a positive test sent you behind your front door for two weeks while the rest of life carried on without you. Only this lasted years, and it ended only when the disease did. With leprosy, that ending wasn't coming.
So when this man comes to Jesus, he comes wrong on every count. He's still ill. He shouldn't be in the city. He hasn't brought the sacrifices the law would later require for someone declared clean. As Mike put it — he comes "at the wrong time, in the wrong place, with nothing." All he brings is the threat of contamination.
And Jesus reaches out and touches him.
The Two Words That Reframe Everything
Notice what the man asks for. Not healing — cleansing. He doesn't doubt that Jesus has the power. He's heard enough about this teacher who speaks with more authority than the religious leaders. The thing he's not sure of is whether Jesus would want to.
Mike named that as the deeper crack most of us live with. We can usually agree, in theory, that God is powerful. The harder thing is believing He'd be willing — for us, for the mess we're sitting in, for the prayer we're too tired to keep praying.
Jesus's answer is simple. I am willing.
That's the pivot. Power was never really the question. Willingness was.
When Holiness Goes the Other Way
Here's the bit that would have made the crowd gasp. By every rule the watching crowd had grown up with, touching this man should have made Jesus unclean. That's how it worked. Contamination travelled outwards. You touched the leper, you became the leper's problem. If you'd been there, you'd have been one of the people shouting no, don't touch him.
Instead, the transfer reverses. The man's disease doesn't infect Jesus. Jesus's wholeness flows the other way. Mike calls it the "infectious holiness" of Jesus — and it's a good phrase, because it flips the assumption that drives most of our church-shaped anxiety. We assume our mess will rub off on the holy. Jesus shows us it works the other way around.
And Then He Touched Him
It's easy to skim past the touch and focus on the healing. Don't. Jesus could have spoken a word from a safe distance and the man would have walked home cured. He chooses something more.
He touches him.
We probably don't need a research paper to know how badly humans struggle without physical contact — most of us got a crash course in it not long ago. This man has likely gone years without a hand on his shoulder. Years of people stepping back when he steps forward. The first thing Jesus gives him isn't a clean diagnosis. It's contact. Presence. The sense of being with before he is ever made well.
That's the part that tends to undo people, regardless of where they are with faith.
The Woman on the Other Side of the Road
Mike was honest about how this lands for him in 2026. A few months ago, he was working in someone's garden, walked out to his van, and saw a woman walking towards him on the pavement. She looked, in his words, like she might be a drug addict. His gut reaction — not his thought-out, considered, what-would-Jesus-do reaction, just his body's instinctive move — was to cross the road and give her a wide berth.
Then he got back to the garden and noticed what he'd just done. He'd been listening to a Christian podcast at the time. He'd been preparing to teach.
"My gut reaction was to give her a wide berth. Jesus's gut reaction was to move towards him."
Most of us aren't going to fix our instincts by trying harder to be nicer. The instincts get reshaped slowly, by spending time around the One whose default move is the opposite of ours.
Distance Built Into the Architecture
In the Conversation Street segment that followed, Will Sopwith picked up on a thread that's worth naming. Distance gets built into religious life in subtle ways — sometimes literally, in the architecture of a building, where the priest is high and the people are low, and an awe of God turns into a cold draught between us and Him. The writer of Hebrews talks about a curtain that has been opened so we can come close. Jesus, Will pointed out, is the one who lives that openness in person.
Ade Birkby, joining from North Wales after a properly British battle with the audio gremlins, told his own outsider story. As a kid he developed serious food allergies that drained his energy and meant he was, by his own description, the last person you'd want on your team — unless you were placing bets that the team would lose. He used that to underline something important about this passage. Yes, this man received complete deliverance. But Ade was careful to add that grace doesn't always look like that. Sometimes God's grace is the grit to get through, not the rescue from the situation. Both are mercy. Both are Him being willing.
Ellis asked the question on a lot of people's minds in the chat — "what can we do to help those that we see are left out?" Ade's answer was simple and quietly convicting. After services, after meetings, in any community we belong to, look around the room. Don't just default to the people we always talk to. Notice who's on their own. Listen before fixing. It's a small discipline. It's also how the man on the edge of the camp finds out he's wanted.
You Don't Have to Clean Up First
Mike landed the talk on a quote from Dane Ortlund's book Gentle and Lowly. The line that did the most work was this — that Jesus is "positively drawn toward you when you are most sure he does not want to be." Not tolerated. Not put up with. Drawn towards.
If church has ever felt like a club you don't quite qualify for — like everyone else got a memo about how to dress, what to say, what to feel during the songs — this story is for you. The man at the centre of it didn't qualify either. He came at the wrong time, in the wrong place, with nothing. And Jesus reached out and touched him before he'd cleaned up a single thing.
You don't have to sort yourself out first. You don't have to bring the right sacrifices. You don't have to wait until the chaos has settled. If you are willing, the man said. I am willing, Jesus answered.
That's still the answer.
If you'd like a low-pressure way to ask the questions you've been carrying, our next Alpha course starts on Tuesday 5th May, online, cameras-on-or-off, no expectation that you bring anything but yourself.
-
# Transcript (plain) — 2026-04-26 — Mike Harris
Talk: Touching the Leper (Jesus the Revolutionary 1.2) — Mark 1:40-45
Speakers: Will Sopwith (host), Mike Harris (guest), Ade Birkby (Conversation Street)
---
Will: Good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. It's very good to see you this evening. If you've not been— if you've not encountered us before, we're a church but we're online, and this is our Sunday livestream. Every Sunday we livestream, and all the recordings that are made of Crowd Church are available on the website and on YouTube. So do check out all the other material as well. It is a church, it's not just a podcast, so we really do welcome that interaction from those that are coming on. And my co-host is bizarrely not in the same room this evening, so that's an added level of technical complexity. But Ade Birkby, very good to see you beaming in from North Wales. Oh, we've lost sound and he can't see us. Oh no! We can see him, but I'm not sure he can see us and he can't hear us. Okay, well, Ade's there and Dan is working very well in the background to get us all sorted. But yeah, as part of being a church and that engagement, what we're going to do this evening, we have a little bit of a welcome. We've got then the next installment of our series Jesus the Revolutionary: The Jesus That You Didn't Think You Knew. And we've got Mike speaking to us. And after that, then we have Conversation Street, where we discuss what Mike's brought. We, yeah, any comments, any questions in the chat? That's your moment to be part of the conversation, even though we're not on the same screen. So please do, as Mike's talking, just put thoughts, questions in the chat. And Ade and I, if we get that connection, we'll, we'll pick those up afterwards and, and let's have a conversation. But as well as that, there is the live lounge, directly after this. That'll be about 10 to 8, 10-15 minutes. It's, so yeah, as I put it earlier, it's like the tea and coffee after a church meeting, but you bring your own tea and coffee. but please do, come in. That's in a Google Meet, and Dan will put the link in, in the chat. So you actually do then see each other and we can have a bit more of a conversation. So it'd be really, really good to connect with you. If you're watching this on recording, then you missed that opportunity. But if you're on the live stream, please say hello in the chat. Let us know you're there. And we look forward to the conversation. Have we got a hello from Ade? Should we try Ade again? No, we don't. He can hear us, but yeah, okay. We can't hear him. I can't hear him. Can you hear him? If anyone's on the chat, let us know whether you can hear Ade. No. Okay. So, Ros, hi. And Alicia, hi. And Lady Birkby and Ellis. Good to see you. Okay. Well, since we don't have much conversation with Ade, unfortunately, you're going to have to come to me, Will. We're going to have to go to Mike. Mike Harris, it's very good to have you back on Crowd after all these days.
Ade: Yeah.
Will: Seven days, I think.
Mike: That's it.
Will: Mike and I were hosting last week. So, but yeah, great, great to have you.
Mike: Good to be here.
Will: Over to you.
Mike: Great. Well, welcome. It is great to be here. And yeah, for those of you who don't know me, I'm Mike and I am following on from Dave Connolly, Pastor Dave's talk last week. So he was talking about Jesus the Revolutionary, and he looked at a story from the Bible about Jesus meeting, a lady at a well. And so if you didn't get a chance to hear that, have a listen. It was really, really good. I was, very privileged to be here with him and Will. and today I am continuing that series of talks, and we're looking again at Jesus the Revolutionary. And we're looking at today an interaction that Jesus has with a guy who has a skin disease, called leprosy. And so we're going to have a little look at that and how Jesus interacts, in a very revolutionary way with this guy. so before— just before I do that, I just wanted to plug first of all a book, It's a book by an author called Dane, C. Ortland, and it's called How Does God Change Us. It's a very, very small book, as you can see, which I like. Not many pages, chapters are very short, so you feel like you're making headway all the time, which is great. And I'm gonna just be quoting from that book a couple of times, but really good book, very accessible if you want to have a listen and read. Have a read of that, it's great. but I wanted to start by asking you a question, and the question is this: have you ever felt left out? Have you ever felt like an outsider? I was having a think back through my life and thinking about being, an outsider or being left out, and my mind straight away went to my junior school. And unfortunately, this isn't a time when I felt left out. This was a time where I left people out because I was one of those people— and you are going to hate me for this— but I was one of those people who on the schoolyard was, was quite good at football. You know, we've all got talent, haven't we? And one of— well, mine was playing football. And so I was often the captain. And so all the boys, girls would be lined up against the wall and we'd be picking teams. And less and less people will be left on the wall. And soon you get to the end. And, I was what, 7, 8, 9, 10? I was, I, I, I, I was heartless. And I was just, I can remember saying, oh, you can have them, we don't want them. and maybe, maybe some of you were those people who were on the wall. I don't know. but what a terrible, terrible situation. And, and so I can remember that. But I can tell you that you don't have to worry. Life got its own back on me. Because years later I was the person who wasn't getting picked for the team and I was the person who was being let go by football teams and stuff like that. So it did come round. Don't worry, those captains did get their comeuppance in the end. And I was one of those. I also remember I joined a cycling club I decided to, I'm quite faddy and I've got, a set of golf clubs that I've never used and all of that. I've got a surfboard that I've been on once, and I want, I did get into cycling for a bit and so I joined the cycling club and I remember feeling like the outsider. I didn't, I didn't know what all the lingo was. I didn't really know what I was supposed to be doing. Obviously I knew how to ride a bike, but I didn't really understand what, what the different formations were and stuff like that. And I can remember feeling like a bit of an outsider. the story we're going to look at today is about an outsider, someone who was, who had been excluded from his community. And we're looking at how Jesus interacts with those who are left out and marginalised. And so This story is found in one of the eyewitness accounts. So there's 4 of them in the Bible: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And I'm in particular looking at a story from Matthew chapter 8. So it's just the first little bit of Matthew chapter 8, so you can have a read of it, if you want. And this bit of Matthew chapter 8 starts with Jesus coming down the mountain. So he's been, up this mountain delivering this sermon, the Sermon on the Mount it's often called, a very famous sermon. And he's coming down and this, guy who has leprosy comes before Jesus and he says to Jesus, Jesus, if you are willing, you can make me clean. And Jesus turns to him and says, I am willing, be clean. immediately the guy is healed of his leprosy, and Jesus tells him to go as a testimony, as a story, as— excuse me— as witness. I want you to go to the leading, teachers at the time, that the, the, the, the main people who are in charge. I want you to go and see them, tell them that you've been healed, and go through the procedure, the ceremony that you need to go through, in order to fulfil the laws that you— that are, that you are bound under at the moment. And that, that is the story. And so I just want you to think about a few things. There's so much that we could talk about, about this particular story, but there's just a few things that I want to mention. The first thing is that as Jesus comes down, the mountain, the guy who has leprosy comes before Jesus and he says to him, 'If you are willing, you can make me clean.' You know, very many times I've been to church or I've been, praying or whatever, and I've known in my head or even in my heart that God is powerful, God is able to do things. And I know that there are times where I have believed that God is able to do something but just not believed that he would want to. And that might be something to do with myself, that might be something I'm praying for myself or for my family. and it's a challenge, isn't it? It's one challenge to believe in God's power, it's another challenge to believe that he would use that power in your life. And I think the, the first one of the reasons why this story, I believe, is in the Bible is because God wants you to know that he is willing. He says to the leper, 'I am willing,' and he is willing to intervene in your life, to use the power that is at his disposal in order to make a difference in your life and to teach you more about him and to draw you to himself and to make you more like Jesus. so, so that is the first thing. The second thing is this, why did he say to Jesus, 'If you are willing, you can make me clean'? You know, this guy, this guy wasn't dirty. He wasn't, covered in mud, or whatever. He didn't ask to be healed. He asked to be made clean. And you see, Jesus goes on, he makes him clean, he heals him, and then he says, you need to go to the, to the leaders, the religious leaders, and you need to fulfil the laws. And so in order to understand what's going on here, because this is, this is thousands of years ago and very different to the way we live now, we do need to do a little bit of, looking into the historical context of what was going on. And what was— in order to understand that, we have to go to the third book of the Bible, a book called Leviticus. And in chapter 14, it tells you what the laws were. And these were the laws that these people at this time would have been living under. And what the laws said was this: that if you had a skin disease, you weren't sinful, you hadn't done anything wrong. That's really important to note— you hadn't done anything wrong. But you were— you had to stay away from other people. You had to stay out of the temple, the church. And if you went near anybody who, who didn't have a skin disease and you touched them, then they became like contaminated. The best analogy I can think of is like during COVID and where if you were around someone who had COVID, you had to isolate and things like that. Well, it was similar back then. And so what they would have to do is if they had a skin disease, they would have to wait until they were healed of the skin disease, whatever it was. They would then have to go to one of the religious leaders, to a particular place. And this place, it says, was outside of the city. So it was a remote place, a away from everybody else so that you didn't contaminate anybody. And when you went there, you had to take with you, you had to take things with you. So you had to take like particular animals and things like that, and they— those animals would be sacrificed. And, and you'd have to shave off all of your hair, and things like this. It all sounds a bit crazy, but the priests would take you through a process that would last about 2 weeks, and at the end of those 2 weeks, you would be declared clean, and you would then be able to interact with your family, with those that are around you. You'd be able to— you'd be able to go to church, into the temple, and things like that. So that's the, that's the context. Now, the other thing to mention is that leprosy was incurable. That's another thing. So the reason why Jesus says to this leper, go and show the, the leaders, the religious leaders, that you have been healed. Part of the reason was to, to show them that something unbelievable was happening here. It wasn't just that somebody had, maybe a, a lesser skin disease and had been healed, but that somebody who had leprosy, a disease that they knew was incurable, had been cured. So let's just go back to the leper. The leper already understood the time— once you were healed— the place— outside, away from everybody, not near crowds, away from everybody— to the priests. And he knew what he would need to take with him. And yet He comes to Jesus at the wrong time. He's still got leprosy. At the wrong— in the wrong place. He comes to Jesus inside of the city and he brings with him nothing. He's got no sacrifices. He's come to the wrong place and he's come at the wrong time. And yet He knew that there was something about Jesus that was like the priests, but it was different. You know, in chapter 7, at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, the people who are listening to Jesus, they say, 'He is teaching like one of our teachers, but with even greater authority.' They knew he was like the Pharisees, but even greater. This leper knew enough about Jesus to know that he was like one of the priests, but greater. And so this leper had the faith to believe that Jesus could make him clean there and then, at the wrong time, in the wrong place, without the right things. And Jesus reaches out and touches him. And at this point, it says that he'd been walking down the mountain and the crowds were following him. And if you were in that crowd looking at Jesus at this point, you would be shouting, 'No, no, no, don't touch him! Don't touch him!' Because if you touch him, his uncleanness, his disease infects you. And yet the infectious holiness of Jesus infects the man. And so he was like a priest, but he was greater. You know, Jesus reaches out and touches him. It's really important that we, we don't just focus on the fact that he was healed. You know, Jesus touched him. This might be the first time he's been touched in years. We know that as a human being, if you go without physical contact for a long period of time, it has It damages you. It damages you in a profound way. Jesus could have just said, you're healed, you're cured, you're made clean. But he reaches out and he touches him. and this is the heart of a wonderful Creator. He reaches out and touches the leper. He reaches out and touches the person who was an outsider, who was dangerous. All this leper brought to Jesus was the threat of contamination. That's all he brought, nothing else. And yet Jesus reached out and touched him. I, I don't know where you're up to today, but I want to tell you that Jesus is powerful and that he is willing to reach out and touch your life today. And to radically transform it. You know, whether you have felt like an outsider, whether you have felt good enough or not, you are before Jesus. You are perfect. You are his. You are wrapped up in Jesus Christ. You know, it says in Romans, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. If you have surrendered your life to Jesus today, then you are wrapped up inside of Jesus. Just let me read to you a little bit from this book. it takes me about a minute and 15 seconds to read this, but I just want to read it because I just think it's great. We know our hearts resist him. We see the ugliness within. We can hardly face ourselves, we feel so inadequate. And Jesus is perfectly holy, the divine Son of God. It is normal and natural, even in our churches, to sense instinctively that he is holding his people at arm's length. This is why we need a Bible. The testimony of the entire Bible culminating in Matthew 11:29. Matthew 11:29 is the only verse in the Bible where Jesus refers to his heart. And if you remember, back in those days, the heart— they had no concept of the brain, so everything, all thoughts, all emotions, everything came from your heart. And Matthew 11:29 says where Jesus is referring to his heart. He says, 'I am gentle and lowly of heart.' At the centre of Jesus's engine, his driving force, is gentle and lowly at heart. Just let me read this again. So this is why we need a Bible. The testimony of the entire Bible, culminating in Matthew 11:29, that verse I've just read, is that God defies what we instinctively feel by embracing his people in their mess. He finds penitence, distress, need, and lack irresistible. You don't have to go through security to get to Jesus. You don't have to get in line or take a ticket. No waving for his attention, no raising your voice to make sure he hears you. In your smallness, he notices you. In your sinfulness, he draws near to you. In your anguish, he is in solidarity with you. What we must see is not only that Jesus is gentle toward you, but that he is positively drawn toward you when you are most sure he does not want to be. It's not only that he is not repelled by your fallenness. He finds your need and emptiness and sorrow irresistible. That is the Jesus who I follow and who we follow here. And, if you, are a Christian, then great. And if you're not, I would just encourage you to read the Bible. In particular, read the eyewitness accounts of Jesus and his life and the way he interacted with people, and you will find a human who was incredible and who is worthy, of all of our praise. And so yeah, have a think about that. I hope that encourages you, I hope it challenges you, I hope it gives you something to think about, as you go through the rest of your week this week. God bless.
Will: Thank you, Mike. Thank you. Beautiful words. Beautifully spoken. Thank you very much. Ade, have we got you?
Ade: I hope so.
Mike: Yes.
Will: Hello.
Mike: It's nice to see you.
Ade: Good evening, everybody. Nice to see you all finally.
Will: So thanks, Alicia, for putting a comment in the chat. I'll come to that in a moment. Please do put your thoughts about what Mike's just said and that challenge he's laid down in the chat, and we will try to cover those as we go. But, Ade, my first question to you is, were you last to be picked in the schoolyard, or were you the peak of physical prowess that we now know you as, and you were always there, like, first pick in the team?
Ade: No, I was absolutely last, and it's not because, I'm a geek who ended up being an engineer and a scientist. I actually grew up with, you could say, serious physical limitations, which I have since been healed from, as we're talking about healing. So when I was probably about 7 or 8, after we moved to Ireland, I developed allergies to certain food types. And these, this would spread literally throughout different food types over time. And my parents tried everything, some kind of wacky homeopathy things, you name it. And it got to the point where if I ate something I shouldn't eat, it would just knock me out completely. I almost couldn't move. At the best of times when I was eating things that I should be, I didn't have huge amounts of energy. So I was not the guy you wanted on football team, unless you wanted to take bets the team would lose and, fix the game, then I was your guy. But typically at school, you're not really thinking quite like that.
Will: You haven't got that level of empathy. Well, that was an answer I really was not expecting, eh? But yeah, so, well, we forgive you, Mike. We forgive your cruelty in the playground. But yeah, certainly something I can relate to. I was never last, actually. I think I was always kind of second or third to last, so there was a kind of a, a sigh of relief. But I mean, there was a thing actually, I don't know whether you heard about it, in, I heard about the radio quite recently, the news. There's been some survey done that, that school put off— they did a survey of 40, 50-year-olds, and it was school that put them off exercise for life. That whole scenario that you've just, yeah, that you've just said. And they've not gone back to exercise because they're so hurt by it.
Mike: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, especially, we live in Liverpool and football was just so important, . And whether you were good at football, average at football, bad at football, in the schoolyard at least defined who you were. Yeah, defined your worth. And, you know, we spend a long time in school and very, very formative years. And so, yeah, I know, I can understand. I mean, I was a PE teacher as well then for, for 15 years, and so I spent a lot of time making sure that we came up with different ways to try and come up with, teams and things like that, just because, I knew even just looking back, you didn't have to have much empathy at all to look back and think That is not good. That's not an effective way.
Will: Actually, this survey, the PE teachers were definitely in the line of fire there as well. They kept their attitude. But I'm sure, well, I know that you're an excellent PE teacher and you brought that grace, grace with you. but thanks for that talk. And, and yeah, quite a lot in there actually. Ade, I don't know whether you want to kick off anything that particularly, particularly struck you. And I'll catch up on some of these comments.
Ade: Yeah, I am just looking at, how that guy with leprosy was thinking. He knew there was something different about Jesus. You know, I'm sure he'd heard the stories and possibly even seen some of the miracles. But what an exciting time to be living in that transition period between the old covenant and the new covenant, the old way of doing things, which is Leviticus 14, a massive instruction manual of all the things you have to do, all the hoops to jump through, and interestingly, different tiers of sacrifice depending on your financial ability.
Will: Yeah.
Ade: To where we are now, where it's, what, Jesus died for us. That's enough. Just trust in him. All of the, the methodology, the law, the practice, that's gone away. It's just so much simplified. And to be alive in that time where things were changing, it must have been, must have been, miraculous. Well, it actually, it was miraculous. He was healed from leprosy, something that doesn't get better by itself.
Mike: Yeah, I, I, I just think it's brilliant, just Echoing what you were saying there, Ade, and I think it's interesting, isn't it, that those laws in Leviticus came from God. You know, they were— they weren't like bad laws. And so when Jesus came, he still tells the leper to go and do the things that you're supposed to do.
Will: Yeah.
Mike: And he goes on, doesn't he? And Jesus says, I haven't come to abolish all of that, but come to fill, fulfil it, fill it full. And one of the things that I realised from talking to one of the people who goes to our church is that, there was 3 things in those times that, that made people think that something messianic, something of God was going on. And it was if blind people were, healed, if leprosy was healed, or if the dead were raised. To life. And so when Jesus tells this leper to go and tell the priests that, go and do what you're supposed to do to fulfil the law, it's going and telling the priests God is here, something of God has come down to earth, because people with leprosy don't get healed. And so, imagine being there. Yeah, yeah, imagine being there. Yeah, it's amazing.
Will: Yeah, and as you say, the confidence of that man to come— I love the way you put it— without any of the right stuff, it's like ill-equipped. Even if he thought that Jesus was this kind of super priest, he still was like, well, you're doing it all wrong, man. Yeah, what, what are you, what are you trying to do? the whole law was given while the people were nomadic in the desert. I, I was absolutely fascinated by a university because I worked in infectious disease, and, and you look at them and it's like, if you are going to prevent massive outbreaks in your nomadic community in the desert, these are some of the things you'd put in place. And actually, the laws are kind of, they didn't have the science, they didn't have the understanding of disease. And as Alicia put, there's a, a real misunderstanding about leprosy, and that, that continued into just the 20th century. but actually, those are really good safeguards to keep the people healthy. Even not eating pork, which is, if you're a parasitologist, you go, yeah, pork is the thing that's going to get you ill, actually, mostly. I mean, chicken as well. You know, if you don't cook it properly, pork is, is likely to, to get you sick. So it was just really interesting looking at a whole— through a whole different lens at some of those, those Old Testament laws. Alicia, you've said that the laws regarding leprosy sadden you, and I don't know whether people have read a, a book called The— The— Oh, what is it? The present— I'm gonna get the title wrong, but it basically— The Gift of Pain. And it's a book by a medic who worked out in India in some of the leprosy colonies, for years and years. And, and just kind of at the time, it was sort of '60s, '70s, when the understanding of, like, leprosy wasn't this death sentence necessarily, and actually it wasn't infectious. but that was so recent. And, and I mean, it's an incredible book, about trying to care for literally the untouchables untouchables. I mean, these are the untouchables and there's still places in the world where people are counted as untouchable. And yeah, the sorrow of so many who were just kind of banished. I mean, there's a story of Che Guevara when he was travelling around South America, The Motorcycle Diaries, it was in a film. Again, of like, the leprosy colony was across the river. And him going just to try and reach out to the poor and the suffering. And it was very formative in him, in terms of his, his kind of revolutionary ideas for South America.
Mike: Wow.
Will: Where was I going with that? But yeah, this whole, this whole idea of being untouchable— I mean, leprosy healing is a, is a, is a massive thing still for us. But I was just just thinking as you were talking about how, that distance of the laws and the distance of society while you had a disease like that, and Jesus absolutely just bridging that in a moment just by reaching out and touching this guy. And it struck me, and I wondered whether, anyone listening, maybe you've had experience of that sort of untouchability, that distance, maybe in, in, in church or in your efforts to engage with God or the people of God or, any other kind of religious practice. and yeah, I don't know whether— hey, you've got anything to, to comment on that, where you— whether you come across that, or, or Mike.
Ade: It kind of overlaps with a comment we had earlier from Alicia saying she spent, a month on a fairly deserted college campus over the pandemic and just, began to doubt reality. And yeah, I think you're right. I think there's, I think if we look hard enough anywhere in work, in community, in church, and everywhere, there is that distance, even when actually, we are around people. I think for Crowd, it's even more challenging because, We are a digital church. We have community where we have meetings during the week over Zoom. We keep in touch over in WhatsApp groups and even with our tea and coffee after— tea and coffee— after the service in the live lounge, we can reach out and speak to people and hear them and see them. But In the digital domain, that touch part is missing. And I think that's, as a digital entity, we can never get around that. But I think it's something that we can be conscious of and we can try and think, okay, how can we make the things that we can do more welcoming and more inclusive and more warm and cuddly to make up for the fact that we can't turn around and give you a big hug after church, because it just Not yet. Technology isn't there yet.
Will: And maybe some people in Crowd are thankful for that, who knows, that kind of cringe of being hugged off church. But anyway, but I think, I mean, it's interesting, just church in itself, and actually you see this in other religions as well, the kind of the temple, and there is this distance kind of built in, almost architecturally built in. You've got the kind of high altar and you're lower than the priest and and you're the crowd. There's a kind of a— and, and it's designed to bring that awe of God. But there's this wonderful verse in Hebrews about, in Hebrews 10, where the writer of Hebrews is talking about how we can approach God with confidence. We can approach his throne, and it's a new and living way open for us through the curtain, because of Jesus. And, and although kind of church culture, we've retained some of that distance, I think Actually, right here at the outset, we have Jesus showing that, no, no, it really is this, yeah, reaching out and giving a hug, as you said, Ade, which also would've been pretty radically different. I think that's certainly part of the revolutionary of Jesus, that yeah, there was awe of God and there was honour and worship of God, but actually there was a real closeness and real intimacy about the way he treated people, which would have been very different, very different.
Mike: And, I just think, like, when we think about today and we think about us and we think about how we interact with people, when you see someone who acts with the same compassion as Jesus, or similar to, and they are looking out for people and they looking at people and dealing with people and love, it looks very different. It looks different to the way often that I behave. You know, I can remember I was gardening— I'm a gardener— so I was gardening, a couple of months ago, and, I had to go out to my van for something. And as I was coming back to the garden I saw this lady walking down the street and she looked like, she looked like a drug addict. And my gut reaction, my initial reaction, not my thought-through considered decisions, but my gut reaction was to, to instantly give her a wide berth. And so I walked out round gave her a wide berth, walked into my garden. Now it's important to note at this point that I was listening to a Christian podcast at the time whilst preparing a sermon for church. And I get back into the garden and I think that my, my gut reaction— I was thinking I could go back out now and go and speak to her and say hello because I've thought about it and I've thought what is the right thing to do. But gut reaction was to give her a wide berth. Jesus's gut reaction was to move towards him. Yeah, was to move towards the leper and to touch him. That was his reaction, not his, thought-through, considered. It was just— that's what his heart is. His heart is gentle, his heart is lowly. And so when he sees need, he reaches out and touches him. And it, it's just a challenge, isn't it, for us to think today Who, who are the lepers in our community? Who are the people who we maybe give a wide berth to? And it might be, it's a real challenge to think about it because often now it's, it's maybe people online who you don't want to be connected to, or maybe it's a, it's a party or an idea or a group of people you don't want to be connected to because you're worried that that they're going to tarnish you. maybe it's someone on your road who's a bit different, and maybe, maybe, I don't know, maybe they smell, maybe they, maybe they've got some, some issues that, that you just don't want to deal with, or they're just too much hard work, or whatever it is. I have, I have the same battles, the same challenges. And I think one of the things that I would say is that by looking at this story and by reading this story, it's starting to change me. It's starting to— to— God is using this story as I read it and as I think about it. He's using the story to transform me slowly, and it's a slow process, but it's— it— that's what we've got to do. We could— there's nothing you can do to, to change what your reaction will be. If you, if I would have been approaching her from the other end of the road, I could have maybe got over my reaction before I met her. But you know what your heart's like based on what your reactions are.
Will: Yeah, it's kind of instant, almost an instinctive thing. You, you said it's—
Mike: Yeah, yeah. And so, your reactions may be the same as mine, they may be different, I don't know. I know lots of people in in our church whose reactions would be very different. They would react by moving towards the person, and they're inspiring. But the one who is the greatest inspiration is Jesus. And so reading passages about him, reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, will— God will be able to use that to transform you and to change your heart and make your reactions different to, to what they are. But, but thinking, who are the lepers? Who are those people?
Will: Yeah. And Ellis asks in the chat, what can we do to help those that we see are left out or who don't fit in around us. And there's a little bit of conversation on that and looking out for them, noticing, Alicia say, which I think is great. And Ellis finishes that chat just saying it. And I think we see this in the story that those who already feel left out, who are already shunned, who are kind of hyper, hypersensitive, hyper empathetic, to people's response to them because they're so used to being rejected, yeah, are very unlikely to be in a place to, to really even to accept attention. And I think we see it in the leper because he's like, if you're willing, yeah, there's like this kind of deferential, yeah, I don't want to bother you. I know, and you, you do get that, don't you? Yeah, see people that's so sort of so waiting almost to be rejected, that there's a kind of a, I can't think of the word, almost an anxiety about them. and yeah, I, I think it's a challenge. I think it's a challenge. How do we— but, hey, any thoughts of you? How— what can we do to help those that we see or are left out, or, or we know have that kind of almost expecting to be rejected?
Ade: In the church setting, it's a conscious effort because, church finishes at the end and, we're creatures of habit. We tend to talk to, a lot of the same people every week because we haven't seen them for a week and we're in this community together and we're just catching up and it's wonderful. But then that part of community is wonderful and we should be doing that, but then it's getting the balance with also just kind of casting an eye around the room and seeing, is there someone there on their own? On, and do they look, sometimes people just want to be there and quiet and pray, but other times it's like, yeah, they're on their own, which, let's go and talk to them and maybe introduce them to the person that we're about to talk to rather than just, fall into our habits. And it is just a habit. It's just having the discipline to, it's almost like think beyond our immediate kind of what we want to do now, it's fellowship time and think, right, what does the church as a greater body need us to do in this fellowship time?
Will: Yeah, any thoughts from you, Mike? Sorting out your own head is kind of what you've already said, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?
Mike: I mean, obviously Crowd has gone a long way because, simply setting up this online church and, obviously we're here at Crowd, we're biased, aren't we? But, but Crowd by its pure essence is, is very, very inclusive because anyone can come. You don't have to show yourself. You don't have to— I heard of people coming on the Alpha course and, and, they can leave the screen blank, they can listen in. You know, there's a very sort of low bar when it comes to, to, to buy to, to accessing it initially. what does that look like for a church? What does that look like for an in-person church? You know, I think it's hard, but it's, it's being welcoming and being interested. And, as Dave Connolly was saying last night, Jesus, when he, encountered the lady at the well. He had all the answers. He knew how to save her, and yet he spent time listening to what she was saying and then reacted to her. And I think, if somebody comes into your church, doing that would be a great start. Yeah, listening to them.
Will: Yeah. And I've got another one that Alicia's put in the chat, actually, and I completely agree with. I'll just read this out to you. Mike, I've noticed that you are incredibly transparent in so many of your stories, and I'm personally blessed by the example you set by being so open to transformation. And I think that's a really excellent point, Alicia. And actually, the transparency and that authenticity— I was going to say, after, your story, we are real on Crowd. We're not perfect. We have these kind of awful automatic responses that are like, that's not very Christian, is it? but this is, I think, the final, final bit I just wanted to touch on, really, was that that, I think you said, Leper had to believe that not only that, that God could, but he would.
Mike: Yeah.
Will: And that, and that's a world of difference, isn't it? It's like, yeah, yeah, we might believe God is powerful, and I hear this all the time from those exploring faith. It's like, yeah, but not me, surely. Yeah, God couldn't be interested in, in doing all that for me. That, that's for the, the other people. and I think, I think you ended by saying, God embraces us in the mess, which is just— and, and honestly, that is what we are all about in Crowd Church. And, and it's great to recognise, Alicia, that there is the transparency, because, if we're not transparent and authentic, then we're not, we're not a good witness for Christ, because he embraces us in the mess. In fact, You said Jesus is positively drawn to that messiness. And yeah, just really want to accentuate that this evening and say, if you feel a mess, that you're absolutely in the right place, and Jesus is totally for you and accepts it. And there's not these layers and layers of sacrifice, being in the right place at the right time. It's just a— would you 'Would you touch me? Would you heal me?' Ade, any other thoughts from you?
Ade: Yeah, I'm just looking at that verse now in Matthew 8. Suddenly a man with leprosy came and knelt in front of Jesus. He said, 'Lord, you have the power to make me well, if only you wanted to.' And I think first of all, I'd say recognition that God, Jesus, he acts on his grace. And thinking about that in contrast with Hebrews 4:16, "Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence so that we may receive mercy and find the grace to help us in our time of need." God gives us what we need. We receive his mercy, we receive his grace. It's not necessarily deliverance. In this case, the leper received complete deliverance and it was life-changing. But then, I'm sure we can all think of situations in our lives and people that we know where God's mercy and grace was the grit to get through, not necessarily, and I think, it's important that we make that distinguishing because it's very often it's in these situations and in life's hardships where God's greatest grace works happen there, and the impact it has on those around us is far greater than if he had delivered us through the situation, to begin with.
Will: Yeah, no, absolutely right. And I think that's part of the mess, isn't it? Part of the mess we come to is like, this is not working. This is not working for me. It's not happening as I wanted to. And I don't really have very much faith, to be honest, God, but I know actually I can still come and just be completely honest about that with you and say I wanna, I wanna keep pursuing it even though I don't understand it and it's not working. yeah, that's— I think for me that's some of the mess that we often come to, to Jesus with.
Ade: Yeah, he gives us what we need. You know, going back to your example on, Leviticus and a lot of the laws they put in place were really good to keep disease from spreading. And that's what the nation of Israel needed at that time. God gave them what they need. They needed food in the desert. It rained from above. They had manna and he gave them what they needed. I'm sure they wanted to make the trip in the 10 to 12 days that it's meant to take from Egypt to Canaan and not in 40 years. And not go through all the hardships that they did. But they went into that desert, a group of refugees, and they emerged a nation with an identity, with their own law, and with hearts on fire for God. And they followed him into an amazing, what, 7-year military conquest against far advanced superiors in the land of Canaan before they settled there. But their hearts were in the right place. Their minds were in the right place. And so, yes, what they needed was 40 years in the desert, apparently, to get to where they needed to be. It wasn't nice. It wasn't like, we'll make leprosy go away. And I just think it's important to remember that God gives us what we need, and it's not necessarily the answer we're looking for. But—
Will: Yeah, that's great.
Ade: He knows in his wisdom that it is the best thing for us and for those around us and for his work in this time.
Will: Yeah.
Mike: Yeah. Amen.
Will: And he'll stick with us. He'll stick with us in it. And however much we falter. If you are interested, a couple of plugs here. In some of these stories of grace that we've kind of touched upon and people being real. if you go to Crowd Church, the, the website, there are, abundant stories called What's the Story. It's a podcast where people tell some of their story of how they've engaged with Christ, maybe how they've met with Christ. and it's some of these stories about working through hardship and, and understanding and, and seeing more of God's grace through it. So What's the Story on Crowd.Church. do dig into some of those stories. the other quick plug before we finish, Mike's mentioned the Alpha Course. there's a new Alpha Course starting on the 5th of May. It's on a Tuesday evening. just like the live stream, it is virtual. but if you're interested in coming and a, a safe place to ask whatever question you have about the Christian faith. the format is a, is a video about an aspect of Christian faith, and it kind of leads through, different aspects, and then there's an opportunity to, to just discuss together online. you'd have to put your cameras on, you'd have to put your real name in the chat, or whatever. You can, you can just be a bystander if you want. but it's a great way to explore further questions of faith, either if you're new in the faith or nothing about Christianity. So the next Alpha course, starts on the 5th of May. And if you'd like, if you're interested in that, please do register on the Crowd Church. and yeah, if you dig through some of those menus, you'll find the Alpha course. click that link and register for it. Dan has put in the live lounge link in the chat. and Ros said Alpha's amazing, would recommend. Absolutely. Mike, anything, any final thoughts from you?
Mike: Well, I think the challenge is for us to remember that we are hidden in Christ. You know, if you are praying to God, if you have a real need for him to move, then you bring that to God in confidence, like as Will was saying. That you are hidden in Christ. It's not because of how good you've been that day or that week, it is because who— of whom you are hidden in. That is your confidence. It's his death, it's his resurrection, it's his blood that means that you can come to God and that God will move in your life. there's a line in this book which goes on to say, is in your pockets of deepest shame and regret that his heart dwells and won't leave. You know, if you are one of those people who feels like you are an outsider, you feel like you're forgotten, you feel like you're not good enough, then you are very, very close to his heart, and his heart is very much for you. and so I just encourage you to, to surrender, to stop trying to be good enough, recognise how bad you are and turn to him. we're Christians because we believed we needed a saviour, not because we felt like we were good enough. and, and then finally, if, if you are a Christian and, think about who are the people who are lepers, and read the stories of Jesus. Ask God to use the stories of Jesus as you're reading them to, to change you and to morph you into the into the Power Ranger that you were created to be.
Will: Amen.
Mike: Amen.
Will: Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike, for great talk as ever. great thoughts. Thank you for joining us. and if you're catching up in the week, why don't you come along on a Sunday evening? I know not everyone can. 7 o'clock every Sunday we do a live stream. Come and join the chat. And, and if you'd like to come on the live lounge now, the the, the link is in the chat. do join in. And as I say, well, it'll be 10 minutes, quarter now, of saying, saying hi and some further chat, some further connection. So that's it. Thank you very much and God bless you. Have great weeks. Over and out.
RECENT LIVESTREAMS
At Crowd Church, we are committed to creating a space for you to explore the Christian faith, regardless of where you are on your faith journey.
What happens at Crowd Church?
Every week we livestream our online church service and release a new story on What’s The Story Podcast. We have weekly online community groups that meet up and all of that good stuff. You can find out more about everything that goes on at Crowd by browsing through this site, and you can reach out to us via our contact page.
Come and Join In!
Are you interested in joining in with what is happening here at Crowd? We would love to meet you!
Come and join our in-person service in Liverpool.
Join in with the Church Livestream
Subscribe to Crowd Church Podcast & What’s the Story Podcast
Follow us on Instagram
Subscribe to the YouTube Channel
New to church? If so - check out the New Here link.
Any questions? Please connect with us via our Contact Page