05: Trusting God Through The Seasons Of Life
Today’s Guest: James Sloan
James lives in Liverpool with his wife and three kids. He's the CEO of Imagine If Trust, a community action charity, and he's on the leadership team of Frontline Church. James loves hanging out with his family and friends.
Here’s a summary of this week’s story:
As anyone who has navigated the seasons of life knows, it can be easy to lose trust in God when things are tough. James Sloan shares his story of how he learned to trust God through the seasons of life, and how doing so has brought him peace and joy.
James grew up in a Christian home, but it wasn't until he was an adult that he really began to understand what it meant to have a personal relationship with Christ. After a season of doing life without God's involvement he began to see his need for God and it was during this time that James says he really began to lean on his faith and trust in God.
James can attest that whilst trusting God through the seasons of life is not always easy, it is always worth it. He has found that when he trusts God, even in the midst of difficult seasons, he is able to find God in conversations and answered prayers in the form of small miracles.
Links & Resources from today’s story
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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello there. My name is Matt Edmundson and welcome to What's the story, a podcast where we hear stories about faith and about courage from everyday people. And today, we are going to be chatting to James Sloan about what it's like to put trust in God through the good and through the bad. Yes, we are. Now this episode is brought to you by Crowd Church, which is an online church. Online, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because not everyone can make it to a church building and let's be real, not everybody wants to go to a church building. And that's where online church works super, super well, it's a safe space to explore the Christian faith. And the thing that I love about Crowd is that it is online first. So, it talks with you and not just at you. That's right. You can join in the conversation if you want to, you can ask your questions, you can share your stories. So regardless of where you are at on your faith, I think it's worth checking out, just head over to www.crowd.church for more info. You can see some previous livestreams, figure out what it's all about. Or if you would like, you can email me directly at matt@crowd.church with any questions that you have. Now, before I get into today's conversation with James, I just want to mention that it's probably worth checking out a couple of links. One of which is a talk that James has done for Crowd Church. Yes. He speaks at Crowd Church on a regular basis. One of my favourites was Peter denies Jesus. But would we do the same? Check out that talk by James and also in the show notes, we'll also link to it or you can Google "imagine if" trust. This is something that James is passionate about. So do check out imagine if trust. James, for those of you that don't know, James lives in Liverpool with his wife and three kids. He is the CEO of imagine if trust, as I said, which is a community action charity. And he's on the leadership team of Frontline church. Yes, he is proper grownup and everything. James loves hanging out with his friends and with his family. He is just a top bloke. I really like him and you are going to enjoy this conversation with James Sloan.
James, thank you for joining me here on Crowd stories. Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you. Now I know right? And we all, I said we all know, but if you're new to Crowd, you may not know that James has been a bit of a regular on the old Crowd Church broadcast network. It's not called that, but we should probably call it the Crowd Church broadcast network. And you've done all kinds of things, right? And you are sat in Liverpool, as am I, in your office at imagine if trust. So how are you doing and are you excited to be here?
James Sloan: Of course, always excited to be in the Crowd Church broadcasting studio. Now I'm sat in my study office in Wavertree, in the middle of Liverpool. So, yeah, I might get interrupted by people wanting things, but they can, they can come back later on if needs.
Matt Edmundson: It's always funny when people get interrupted when you do these kinds of interviews, normally it's kids, you know, because people work at home a lot now. And so normally it's kids that walk in and I always think it provides a little bit of entertainment and enjoyment to the interview. If I'm not, if I'm not wrong.
James Sloan: Yeah, I think anything moving online means that we're more used to kind of interruptions and life just happening around. You know, it's more expected and understandable.
Matt Edmundson: It's nice when that happens, isn't it? It's nice when that happens. So, James, like I say, a chunk of us will be familiar with you, but may not know your story. So, I'm excited to dig into it a little bit here on the show. Now, how did it all start for you? Did you come out of the womb a Christian or did you like become a Christian in your late twenties after an angel visitation or something like that? I don’t know. Where did it all begin for you?
James Sloan: Yeah, I mean, somewhere between the two, it's kind of like, I wasn't quite born with a halo, but I did find Jesus for myself later on along the line. No, I was born into a Christian home, so I grew up in Leeds and my parents, kind of planted a church. So started a new church congregation, I guess, is the, kind of the language. So yeah, I always kind of grew up in and around church but I guess that doesn't always mean that you understand what that really means for you and your life living out a Christian faith. So, I saw lots of people doing Christian things and gathering together to you know drink juice and eat donuts after church and kind of sip wine and take this bread thing that I didn't fully understand. So was very aware of all the habits and all the lifestyle things that came with church. But yeah, it probably took me till much later in my adult life to fully grasp what living a life of faith meant and choosing to make that decision for myself.
Matt Edmundson: It's interesting. You mentioned you saw them doing Christian things and immediately equated that to drinking juice and eating donuts.
James Sloan: That's what we did in the church. Every service ended with, I'm sure they had tea and coffee, but at my age it was just juice and donuts. So for me, I had to kind get through this hour and a half. And at the end you get juice and donuts.
Matt Edmundson: There's a reward at the end.
James Sloan: You know, what's not to love about juice and donuts on a Sunday morning?
Matt Edmundson: We should bring that back. Right? We should, we should bring that little tradition back, the old juice and donuts. And it's funny, isn't it? I mean, I didn't grow up in a Christian environment, but obviously, my kids have and a lot of people, my friends, like you have. It's funny when you talk to people that grow up in a Christian environment, the things that they remember, you know, the things that impacted them as they grew up, things like juice and donuts, and sort of having to make it through the hour and a half to get the juice and donuts. I mean, I don’t know the pastor of the church at the time, but I imagine that's not what they thought would happen with kids in their church, but that's a reality of life, right?
James Sloan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gosh, we used to spend the time at the church hanging onto people's legs as they tried to walk around that's one of our most vivid memories of church, we used to call ourselves leggy leaches. So all the adults are trying to talk and me and my brother and sister, and a few other kids, we just grab people's legs and we thought it was hilarious. And I think back now, I'd hate it if my kids were doing that to me, when I'm trying to have a conversation after church, but that's probably one of my standout memories is just grabbing people's legs and just hanging on for dear life as long as you could. I'm sure they don't remember that as well as I do, but that was standout memory.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. It's funny. Isn't?
James Sloan: Yeah. Good memories growing up in a Christian home, as you can see.
Matt Edmundson: It is funny what we remember. And there's something quite powerful about this. I'm just taking a little sidestep here. As a parent, one of the things that I am aware is, on a regular basis, you have an opportunity to create memories for your kids. But you never know what they're going to remember. You know, my kids are, 15 to 20, almost 21 at the moment. And it's funny when you talk to them about their childhood and the things that they remember, you're like, how did you, how do you remember that? Or why do you remember that? And it's not what I expected at all.
James Sloan: Yeah. And it's a challenge, you know, for us raising kids, I grew up in a Christian home, my wife didn't. We've got positives and negatives from both our experiences and trying to meet in the middle. So, you know, we don't go to church every Sunday and sometimes when we don't, we don't do anything about Jesus or God or the Bible or Sunday, sometimes we do. But for me, there's quite a lot of negative experiences around being churched at home and trying to learn Bible verses and almost feel like a school exercise. So I do have a bit of a kickback when Hannah gets the Bible out, you know, tries to read with the kids, which we love doing, but there's a bit of a something on the side that says, oh, I remember doing that as a kid and I react to it. So, we try to find a healthy balance, but yeah, it's really hard to know how your kids will perceive what you do. You know, based on the perceptions that you've had as a child growing up in a Christian home.
Matt Edmundson: That's a really powerful point actually, because we, I think you're right. I think there's something about raising your kids and in the back of your head, you're always thinking about how you were raised as a kid and how you don't want that bad thing, but you want that good thing. But it's, I don't think it's that black and white, is it because you're, all my kids are different, you know, and what one kid thought was good, another kid might think is bad. And so, but it is funny how you remember these things. Did you ever catch yourself as a kid saying, I'm never going to do that to my kids when I'm older? And have you caught yourself actually doing the thing that you said you would never do?
James Sloan: Yeah. The one thing to me is like licking your thumb and rubbing off your kids' heads. My mom used to do it to me all the time with, I don't know, some kind of tissue, she just pulls out of her like sleeve. All moms just have a tissue, just like magic up their sleeves. It's like a magic trick, but there's no rabbit to appear. She will just damp something, just wipe my face. Like, oh, get off, get off. But I do all the time because our kids are just covered in muck on their faces. They're at that age where food doesn't always make it to the mouth without a kind of detour on their face. So, yeah, we all do it. Don't we? I think culturally, the world changes very quickly. So, things that we had done to us as kids, you know, for me 30 odd years ago, was a very different place. You know, growing for me in the eighties, it was very different to kids growing up in the noughties and whatever we called, the tens?
Matt Edmundson: I don’t know, I lost count after the noughties, if I'm honest with you. So, what was some of the, let's deal with the negatives first? What were some of the negatives for you in growing up in a Christian home?
James Sloan: I think it, it had attempted to feel quite religious. There are things that you do just because you do them. So going to church on Sunday, we used to have a, like a midweek group, a house group at our place. We had a very open home, which I love, but there were lots of people coming and going, some of questionable character, should we say, who had come into church and felt very welcomed. But we often then welcomed them back to our home. So, that was lovely. We loved having lodgers, people to play with, but there were times when some of them, probably had some, what now would be safeguarding issues, which you may've not wanted in the house.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Different times back then.
James Sloan: Different times back then. Exactly. It was all good. So yeah, I remember my parents being very busy. They were both doctors working long hours. My dad was an A&E consultant. Mum was a GP, both in inner city Leeds. So they worked long hours. There were three of us in the house. We had a family dog, we had a cat, and we had lodgers. So there was just a lot happening, a lot of the time. So yeah, it was, it was busy growing up and it's hard to separate church from non-church life. It just all happened in one big happy family, which as I say was great. But I think did have its downsides. I'm not sure how much kind of nuclear family time we got, holidays and occasional times that weekend, but people orbited in and out of our life quite a lot. And probably like I said before, I've tended to move away from that. So we have a lot more nuclear family time at our house. We only have a three-bed semi, so we haven't got space for lodgers at the moment. But we do really try and keep our family unit a bit more protected and that's probably just some reaction to, I had the opposite growing up, and enjoyed parts of it, but not all of it.
Matt Edmundson: So, would you have, I'm curious to know, because we have lodgers, I'm curious to know, would you have lodgers if you had the space?
James Sloan: Probably. Yeah. Before we were, well, before we had kids, we had lodgers living with us. We didn't actually look for them, but if someone needed somewhere to stay and we had a spare room, we loved it. So now it's purely just, we have three children with three bed bedrooms, so, yeah, we're already a deficit, should we say? But yeah, no, we would, we would accommodate it. I think we'd be quite picky about who that might be because it's people living with you and your family and your kids. And that's quite important to get the right balance.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. So that's some of the negatives then. So, what were some of the positives about growing up in a Christian home?
James Sloan: It was a very faith-filled home. A very positive, loving, nurturing home. You know, we were brought up with love and care. Our parents stayed together, which I know sounds strange, but all of my friends went in single parent homes and, yeah, we felt, we felt loved. And people wanted to come into that space and be part of our wider family, which I think says something about the quality of the faith and the culture that my parents set up in the home that people wanted to be included in part of that. And I think we saw our parents live that out. They saw their faith as an adventure. It wasn't a boring religious experience on the pews in an old church building. They lived it out in their work lives and their home lives. They wanted to get alongside people who were struggling. They were generous with their time, with their money, with their gifts. And that probably rubbed off more on me than any Sunday church experience, seeing a life of faith, you know, Monday to Friday as well as Sunday.
Matt Edmundson: That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. It is funny how a lot of people who grew up in Christian homes struggled with this, they'd go to church on Sunday and it would all be happy-clappy, but then Monday through Saturday, it was not like that at all. It was like, there was a massive disconnect between what church was saying and what was actually being shown in the home. And people have struggled as a result of that, which I totally get. You know, when people say that, I understand why you would, but it's, I mean, apart from a few bumps, it sounds like you grew up in, I mean, I know your mom and dad, so I'm assuming that it was quite a loving, fun, adventurous kind of environment that had its, you know, had its quirks, had its problems, as every family does. On the whole, it was a, was it a good experience for you?
James Sloan: Oh yeah. Gosh. Yeah. I mean you can nit-pick can't you, your childhood? But I think I look back now as a parent, I realize the things that they've put in place and how valuable they were for us as a family. And even the teaching moments, you know, that we'd be taught to forgive. When I don't know, we fell out as siblings, there were teaching moments there that when you look back now were purely from scripture, you know? So, yeah, learn to kind of keep a short account of things and not hold onto grudges and managing your anger and learn to forgive and all these kind of things with outworking, you know what they'd learned from scripture from many years of walking with Jesus.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. So for everybody that does grow up in a Christian home, there comes a point. Well, not everybody, I'd say for most people, there comes a point where you've got to, Sharon put it this way. She used this phrase that she had to sort of stop living off her parents' faith. And she had to decide for herself whether or not this was going to be real for her. And if you want to, Sharon is my wife and she's also featured on Crowd stories. So do check her story out. Was that true for you? Was there a point where you kind of went, okay, I'm now going to decide to do this for myself, or have you just been a Christian as long as you can remember?
James Sloan: Yeah, no, I definitely identify with that. I think it's a little bit like, you know, the tug boats that bring boats in and out harbors and they can, they've got really strong engine and they carry it so far. Eventually that boat will have to go on its own. I remember getting to the point kind of feeling like I'd been carried so far. But I then had to make a choice for myself and had to use my own engine power to go forward in the rest of my life. So they, I think they gave me all the resources, all the foundational knowledge, I guess, and experience of church and faith and life working with God. But it had to come to a point where I said, do I want to follow this same life for myself and experience this Jesus that everyone's been talking about, or do I want to walk away? I think the tension for me was a lot of my friends had left. We kind of grew in a youth group together. And when you get to that 15, 16, 17-year-old age, I think it's make or break for a lot of kids who've grown up in church homes. Peer pressure, you know, life choices, all these kinds of things. So I was probably the only one left really in a youth group of one, by the time we got to 17, 18, so it's quite hard to kind of stay encouraged, you know, stay motivated to keep going. So probably that point. I wouldn't say I ever lost my faith, just didn't actively pursue it in the same way. Didn't have people bringing me along and, you know, walking with me and that was probably a couple of years, two, three years' worth of just doing life on my own and trying to work out what I looked like. I left Leeds, went to university. Travelled across Africa for six months or so first. Saw the big wide world. And, yeah, went to university. I probably got to about the age of 20-21, and just realized it wasn't all it's cracked up to be, you know, living for yourself. And around the same time my sister's marriage broke down. And I saw her just really kind of pushing into God, leaning on her church community, friends and family. And the faith that she had in that season really struck me because I realized how shallow mine had become. I'd never stopped believing there was a God or that Jesus existed, but I was doing nothing about it. So I think watching her and her strength of character. And I guess the maturity, and I realized in comparison, I was very immature. And yeah, that was probably the kickstart I needed, and started engaging in a church community. And every Sunday I felt that I went along that the message, you know, that the preacher saying, whatever you call it, had been written for me, for my benefit and it was almost okay like, did they know I was coming today because that seems to be aimed just to me.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. It's funny how we go through seasons and that happens. Yeah, I think just about anybody that's been around church long enough can go, there was a season whereby I felt the pastor's sermon was just aimed at me. It's like, it was just prepared for me because it was speaking so much to what was going on in my life. So, I do smile because I've been there, James. Yes.
James Sloan: Yeah. Yeah. So, and it wasn't just ahead, you know, it wasn't just that the sermon resonated with me. It was a, it was an encounter. It was an experience that I couldn't deny. I'm not particularly emotional most of the time, but when I feel I encountered God, I do get quite emotional. And I remember just weeks and weeks of just feeling really emotional. I feel quite broken, and being ministered to, being prayed for. And for the first time fully accepting, ah, this is what all those people were doing when I was trying to hold onto their legs in church, they were trying to encounter Jesus and it's real, and it's phenomenal and it's exciting and it's an adventure. It's not just gathering for donuts and juice, you know, there's more to it.
Matt Edmundson: That's quite, so when you were, how can I describe it when you were going your own way? I've got that song. You can go your in my head, um, sort of 17, 18, 19, and you know, you're at university. How are your parents at this point? Because they could obviously see that that's what you were doing, I assume, how did they respond?
James Sloan: Really gracious, you know, and I didn't turn into a monster overnight, I'd like to think I was still quite a nice guy but I was living a much more selfish lifestyle probably than they would've liked to have seen. I was dating quite a few girls and, you know, they could see that they weren't the kind of girls that they probably would class as marriage material. But I think they were just quietly loving me, praying for me and just being there. And I think I knew that at the time that it was an unconditional love, it wasn't trying to push me back into a mould that they were trying to create for me. They were just loving me through it, which is probably one of the things that stuck with me most is the grace that they showed to me during those years is something that I want to make sure that I extend to my own kids and to others around me, because that was really powerful to be a recipient of. It, yeah, it was mind blowing.
Matt Edmundson: So were they just, sort of trusting you to God, letting you sort of steer your own course through, whatever you were going through and then just offering kind of words of wisdom as and when you asked? Is that, is that right? Is that, how I pictured it?
James Sloan: Yeah, it's hard to remember exactly how it looked at the time. But yeah, I never felt judged or corrected. I felt loved and supported and accepted throughout that whole time which I think is something I'd probably say to other parents, if your kids are questioning things, let them question them. I think if we try and correct and keep people in line, they potentially might resent it. To be able to question their faith sufficiently or question life sufficiently, I think you need to get to that place yourself to find maturity. So, yeah, I definitely valued that ability to express myself and to make bad choices and to do daft things, three of which are in my mouth. I've got three teeth that are Porcelain Veneers because I was drunk, run a few down, trying to swing off scaffolding and landed on my face. So, I've got very evident, you know, life choice that I carry in my mouth every day. So, you can't tell those three are fake. So, yeah, be careful when you're swinging by scaffolding guys.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Top tip. You heard it here first. It's funny. Isn't it in life? Because you, the Christian message is one of forgiveness, right? That God forgives you and your parents were very gracious with you and all that sort of stuff. But there are consequences to actions that sometimes we have to live with. Right? And it's not a forgiveness issue. It's just that there are like for you, there's a consequence that, you smash your teeth in, you have to have veneers. And if I wasn't plastered trying to swing off of scaffolding, I'd still have my normal teeth probably. And so, there are these consequences that you kind of have to accept for lifestyle choices that you live right?
James Sloan: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think I probably found it out the most when we went through as couples in our church do so called marriage prep. So when you get engaged and you plan to get married, you kind of buddy up with another couple and you talk about a whole bunch of things from finances, to in-laws, to sex and work and holidays. And that's when a lot of this stuff really came out for me, is realizing all those selfish years actually had some consequences on our marriage. I didn't save sex for marriage. And that was a big issue when it came to marriage prep, because my wife had, although she didn't grow up in a Christian home.
Matt Edmundson: How does that work? Okay. Yeah, move on.
James Sloan: But for the first time really felt like, ah, I really wish I'd saved sex for marriage, for our honeymoon night. So yeah, you know, the decisions I made in my late teens, early twenties, had a knock-on effect on our marriage. Now we've been happy, married for 12 years, thereabouts and you know, you work these things through, but at the time it was a really big issue for us that we had to discuss. And, yeah, there's probably quite a lot of regret on my part there that we had to work through. So yeah, things that you do, do have consequences, even though there is forgiveness and redemption and grace.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no very well said. Now you said that your sister's marriage broke down and that was a catalyst for you because you saw her pressing into God and so on and so forth. And without, I don't need to get into details, but have you talked to your sister about the fact that that was the catalyst of you returning to faith and what did she say? What was her response? Because this was a, this I'm assuming was a very traumatic time for her.
James Sloan: Yeah. Yeah. Really tough. They'd only been married a year or so. And yeah, we won't go into details, but he moved out. And I moved in soon after, so we actually lived together. I'd kind of finished Uni and was trying to find out what to do next in life. And she was questioning everything that she thought she had been living for. So, yeah, I think we had a bit of a healing effect on each other for quite a while, and we've always been quite close, but yeah, those years were kind of really foundational for me, living with her, watching her grow from a trauma and seeing the community of friends that were around her mostly from church, but not all of them. And at that point, a lot of my friends have moved away. So I was like, right, it's time for a clean start, you know, the friends I have had are probably not the best ones. So, yeah, I think we, encouraged each other. We prayed together. And yeah, she probably helped me become who I am today, in those years.
Matt Edmundson: Right. That's fantastic. It's fantastic when there's, I mean, it's not fantastic that your sister went through that, but in the midst of that, you often hear this don't you, in Christian stories that in the midst of the pain, there seems to be something that God does? And he doesn't spare us from these difficult things, but he's with us in them and often can work through them, as you've just talked about. So how did you, here you are growing up in Leeds. How did you get from Leeds to Liverpool? It's only, you know, a small journey down the M 62 for those who know what the M 62 is, for those outside of the UK, the M 62 is a Motorway, which joins both Leeds and Liverpool. And so, how did you make, what caused you to take that journey?
James Sloan: So I think growing up I'd always been quite sporty and my plan was to go on to do some sports degree. But I actually did two weeks of, I actually wanted to be a physio first of all. I've wanted to do many things as I'm sure many of us have. Physio, did two weeks physiotherapy work experience, and it was just helping older folk move their legs and arms and it really wasn't very invigorating. So I quickly ditched that idea. But also been quite sporty. I wanted to do something around sports. So I looked at the sports psychology, actually realized that's a very small part of psychology in the broadest sense. So I applied to do psychology at Liverpool, and had taken a gap year, moved over. And at the same time, my parents moved to The Wirral, which is just over the water from Liverpool. And my sister was in Liverpool. So the whole family came over more or less relocated to Liverpool, which was a strange thing because in Leeds, I had quite a strong, well, not strong, but I had a ultra-accent. So when I moved to Liverpool, I sound like a foreigner. But then, when I went back to Leeds to see my friends, they thought I sound like a Scot. So I found myself to be this foreigner everywhere I went. So, hey, I'm probably still the same.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, probably.
James Sloan: But, so yeah, life very quickly moved to Liverpool, found myself a home here, spent three years studying psychology. Did first bits of work experience, went in a brain injury rehab place for a long time. Did some research, actually wrote a paper, which had been published. I actually am a named whatever they call it, author in a journal article. And then, yeah, didn't know where to go next and wanted to do some further studies. I did a master's degree around health psychology, which kind of picks up on smoking cessation and weight loss and social cues to behavioural change, that kind of thing, which I was fascinated by.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, wow.
James Sloan: Yeah. And then, graduated that and the plan was to do clinical psychology doctorate which should be working with people with mental health issues, depression, and anxiety, doing lots of CBT interventions. And I found myself writing all these applications for jobs, because you have to do a few years kind of experience first. And the more I wrote to them, the more I thought this is just not me. Often the question says, tell us how you meet the person spec and about, you know, after about 10 or 15, I thought, I don't think I do. I don't think I do fit this person spec, which is quite a strange revelation when you spent four years studying for something that you realize, this is not the career I want to be going into. And at the time, I'd met my now wife and we had just got engaged. So the pressure was on to find a job that would pay the bills and you know, all of that. And, then a job came up with Frontline church, they were kind of growing. All the social action things that they'd developed. And I just thought, well, I'll put an application in, you know, it's something different. And as I started doing the application, I thought, this is me, this like every single criterion in this application is exactly what I've got. All my life experience and all things I'm passionate about. So yeah, that was 12 years ago, June, 2010 began to work for the church. And that's what's led me to where I am at.
Matt Edmundson: Which is in itself for me, so this is where you meet Hannah. Hannah is obviously your wife and the mother of your fab kids. And here you are, in Liverpool still, not a clinical psychologist. You are the CEO. Are you the CEO? Is that your official title of imagine if trust? So just what is imagine if trust?
James Sloan: So imagine if is a charity based in Liverpool and we run a number of different projects in the community to support people that range from housing to some work kind of early years. So, a nursery providing funded places to those in the community, many of whom are single parent, low-income families through to after schools projects for the local schools, family support work, food, kind of community food scheme. So a whole host of things which all sound kind of unconnected, but actually the beauty of what we do is that people often get connected between the various projects so they might get referred into our family support worker and maybe a social worker makes a referral. And whilst they need some support, they actually need to save some money. So they join the food hub and then they realize we've got a playgroup and they find other like-minded individuals. And those little connections I find is what alleviates poverty more than provisional material goods. Actually, it's broken relationships and it's the lack of community which people suffer from. So we try and help provide community that kind of helps people live out their life in its fullness rather than isolation. So, obviously all that, we've got 20 staff, about 10 different projects that we're running. It's all based in Liverpool, apart from one project, which is out in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which again, working with local church and NGOs to support those who've been victims of war, have had to flee due to war, people have been raped, child soldiers. And then some work around healthcare and education. So again, just trying to kind of support the community and support those on the ground who are providing the relief. So it's an absolute joy and a privilege and been doing that for 10 years. So we set imagine if up in 2012, so I've been working for the church for two years where we decided to set up a separate charity to house all the good stuff that we were doing in the community to distinguish what was church and for church goers and what was charity and often for community members. So yeah, we celebrate our 10th anniversary this year, 2022.
Matt Edmundson: Wow, which is amazing, because imagine if, it's quite an extraordinary charity and it's, I mean, what you guys do though is unreal. It's brilliant. I've always been curious though. How did you, how did we end up with, I think I know the answers, but I'm going to ask the question anyway, because I'd want to know the answer if I was listening to this podcast going, hang on a minute, you do all this stuff locally, right? And then there's this one thing over here, which is in the Congo and it's like, it's not like Liverpool and the Congo is some somehow twinned. Do you know what I mean? I don’t know what city we're twinned with, but I don't think it's in the Congo. So how did that come about?
James Sloan: So, I wasn't actually around for the first few trips, but I think as a church, there's a real desire to send people overseas into various nations, both to provide practical care, but also to provide spiritual care and to reach out and to share the gospel and that kind of grew to various trips that went to different countries. And as it was happening, a guy arrived in Liverpool from the Congo. And the pastor at the time got chatting to him and heard about his kind of hometown. He said, well, could we take a team of people to support, encourage, resource the church there. So they took an early team. I think this is early 2000s and just made a bit of a connection with a fantastic pastor there called pastor Alexander, who we work with till today. And the trip developed over time and the project developed, and there's just a very natural connection between our two churches, really. So we kind of give some money to support what they do. And then we send teams out to help encourage them and provide training around medical care. And we've trained some teachers in the past. We've done teaching around trauma and counselling. So it's a partnership really. And it's a partnership that goes both ways. He's been to Liverpool three times. And every time he comes, he learns a lot first and foremost, which is great. He always leaves very full of ideas. But he teaches us so much when he comes, because he's come from such a different context. He's such a faith filled man of God, that we've always found that his visits to us are almost like reverse missionary journeys.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. It's quite extraordinary. Isn't it? Because the stories he has are extraordinary, but the man has always got a smile on his face every time I've seen him. And you just think you are one of the most joyful people, and yet you don't have 95% of what I have. And you, I think you're deeply, I'm deeply challenged by that kind of attitude to life, right? I think it's just inspiring. Personally, I think it's very, very inspiring when you see that kind of thing. So here you are, CEO of imagine if trust, and have been for a number of years now. And obviously imagine if is doing some great work and people can find out more on the website, imagineiftrust.org, if you want to know more about what James is doing. What are some of the challenges that you guys have faced either running the charity or marriage? I mean, you talked a little bit about childhood, but what are some of the big things that have been on your radar the last few years?
James Sloan: Yeah, I mean, I think this year's been one of reflection for me. I think the fact that we're celebrating 10 years, you know, you can't help but look back and reflect on the journey that we've been on. And to me they've been 10 very busy years. I've got an eight-year-old, a six year old and a three year old, that's been one of raising multiple kids, growing multiple projects, taking on new contracts, taking on new staff. So yeah, when I look back, it feels very busy. But I look back and think of the stories of the people's lives that have been transformed and changed and impacted during that time. And not just people that we work with, but actually some of our own staff, you know, seeing people grow and come from marriage breakdown to having real struggles, to coming on board, doing apprenticeship, getting qualified, getting experience and moving into either university or into careers and PGCs, and finding new partners and watching life come back together again. And that's a real joy to me collecting those stories and being part of them and witnessing how God works in the small things often. So yeah, that's been some of the joys, but there have been challenges. The last two years I've probably found the most challenging of my working life, navigating lockdown and furlough claims. And I mean, the day that we shut this building, I just fell apart. And this is March, 2020. We closed our doors and I just kind of looked at the streets around me and just thought, what do we do? Knowing the families that were in those houses around us. And yeah, I think the emotional challenges and things that you're trying to balance between keeping your staff and your budgets healthy versus recognizing the massive need that was growing. And we quickly pivoted into doing food deliveries and care packages and making phone calls to the isolated families and individuals we knew. So I just felt I could never switch off for the first 6 to 12 months.
Matt Edmundson: Just always trying to figure it out.
James Sloan: Just trying to work out how do we keep the organization going? Keep our staff paid and how do we keep meeting the need that just kept growing and growing and growing? And then navigating various restrictions and limits and numbers. And also, just people's, what's the word? How they responded to the COVID crisis at the time, some staff are very wary. Some staff were keen just to crack on and get back in the building, and try to hold all that intention and be a bit of a peacemaker. And all of it was emotionally and physically draining whilst home-schooling a few kids.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, very young kids as well. I mean, I always felt, I felt for people that had to home-school young kids, because my kids are not young and home-schooling them, let's just say I can't do 95% of their homework, so there's no chance I'm home-schooling them. Right? It's just not going to happen. So I appreciate for me, I was at a very different life stage, but for you, it is probably worth saying actually that a lot of imagine if stuff happens in the building. So we've got this building in Wavertree which the church is based in and the charity is based in, and there's quite a big space and the building is always busy. Everyday. And if it's not busy on a Sunday morning, it's usually busy with imagine if stuff. Right? And so, when you talk about closing the building and the reason it's so emotional is because, it's because the life of imagine if seems to be in that building, right?
James Sloan: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: So, closing that, I get, that's an emotional rollercoaster. Handling the staff, I get. That's emotional. How did you deal with it then? I mean, how did you, if I can use Christian terminology, where was God in all of this?
James Sloan: Yeah, I think that's a great question to ask. I think I went on quite a personal journey of recognizing that I found a lot of my identity in doing. Just doing stuff, keeping busy, keep your head down, keep going. I kind of would pride myself on my efficiency. I've been able to get things done and managing a team and, you know, juggling new initiatives and all of that. And when that hit, I was like, oh, so who am I when the stuff isn't happening? You know, when my CEO title disappears and suddenly, I'm just a guy in an empty building trying to home-school some kids, you know, this isn't what I've been doing for the last 10 years. And I think you do start to question quite a lot of things, but I found God in the little conversations, in the small little miracles, in the provision that we had, in the answers to prayer. There was never anything massive. There's just lots of little stories and little wins. I think that's one thing I've carried is that, in the third sector, the charitable sector, it's very easy to get bogged down by the need, especially now you think of rising living costs and the number of kids and care is rising and there's, you know, huge problems. But if you let yourself focus on all of that, it can be really quite depressing. But if you constantly celebrate stories and testimonies and the impact you're having, it keeps your staff team healthy and encouraged. I think it helps you realize what God is doing in the small things. And I think it helps you to be thankful and to recognize what you have rather than focus on what isn't. So I think it's been a perspective change to try and recognize those things and celebrate them rather than get bogged down with what we could be doing or the need in the city or the nation or in the Congo, because the Paul will always be with you. It's what we kind of read in the scripture. So that's never going to go away. So we have to manage ourselves and our own boundaries and our own, you know, energy levels, so that we can keep going for the long term and not just for the short.
Matt Edmundson: I like that. I like how you talked about celebrating and reminding yourself of the stories, the big ones and the little ones, and being okay that there are, I mean, a lot of little changes added to a lot of a big change don't they? It's and actually, so often we miss them because they're small and we think it should be big and we think it's insignificant, but actually it's quite life changing when you add it all up together. It's interesting. You talked about finding your identity and being busy. Do you think that, I don’t know if, I don't mean this to come across in a sexist way, but do you feel that's quite a male thing?
James Sloan: Maybe. I've never been anything other than, you know, a white male, so it's very hard to put myself in the shoes of anyone else, but I've always liked to be busy. It's probably inherited from my family. We just did a lot. And that became the norm. Maybe for them it's a bit of a sense of being the breadwinner. There's always been the sense that they should work and they should provide for the family. And part of that is just being busy, whether that's a nine to five or shift work or whatever. Interestingly, my wife who is more qualified than me and was often the breadwinner before we had kids in lockdown, she just loved the simple life. She had a little routine where she'd do a few hours of home-schooling. We'd go for a little walk around the block and they'd come back and do another hour or something with her. And she just loved that simple life. Whereas I just found that really monotonous. It just bored the life out of me. I need variety and I need people and I need to be inspired. So that sense of Groundhog Day just didn't do it for me. So I guess we're all wired differently. Aren't we?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, we are. And I get what you mean though. I think I've been one of those fellas and I've definitely come across the guys who take great pleasure in telling you how busy they are. Do you know what I mean? How's life going? Oh, it's busy, so busy. And it's like a badge of honour. And I think the older you get, the more you realize that's actually, that's just foolishness right there and it, I catch myself still going. Oh, I'm really busy. It's really busy season. And you just, you just got to catch yourself in the mirror and go hang on a minute. It's like, am I just a busy fool? Is a big question to ask yourself. But so, I identify James, is what I'm saying. That actually it's easy to find your identity in being busy, and in terms of what you've run and your title and all of that sort of stuff. So going forward, right, I assume imagine if it's still on the horizon, no plans to change, unless there's a bombshell you'd like to drop, do it now.
James Sloan: No bombshells. I'm stuck in it for the long term.
Matt Edmundson: Stuck in Imagine if for long term. We all, I think we all have a, what's the word I'm looking for? We all have a message. We all have a legacy that we want to leave. And I guess if there's something that you, reflecting upon your formidable years of life, what's the one thing that you would want your kids to know? You know, you've got your three kids, they are still quite young. What is the one thing that you'd hope they grow up knowing?
James Sloan: So, I often get, I'm trying to think of a polite word to say it, but ripped at work, should we say? I have the mickey taken from me. My go-to phrase, a lot of the time was, Err on the side of grace. And that's come from, you know, we work with people from all walks of life. Some who have had really difficult starts in life. Some who've had unfortunate life events, some have just made bad choices, and may continue to make bad choices whilst working with us. But often, especially with, so we have three houses that we manage 11 bed spaces, and often the tenants that we see may say one thing and do another, it's not uncommon to feel like the wool's being pulled over our eyes. But my message to our staff has always been well let's err on the side of grace. Let's give people that second chance. Let's give people the opportunity to experience love and forgiveness and grace. And people kind of go, well then, you know, they'll take advantage of you and I'm ready to be proved wrong on this. But my ethos is if you choose to be generous, then people can't take advantage of you. Because if you're choosing to give away, they can't take it from you. So to me, if you're choosing to be gracious and to give that generously, then people can't take advantage. It may seem like that in the short term, the natural, but actually long term, they'll not gain anything from that relationship. And actually, they'll just lose the opportunity to grow and to develop. So, it's something I say over and over again. Let's just err on the side of grace. Let's err on the side of grace. If in doubt, let's take that path. Now obviously at times we've had to be strict, we've had to evict people. We've had to have difficult conversations, but that's after giving them multiple opportunities to respond and to kind of come on board. And to me, the Bible is just full of parables and stories where Jesus gives people second opportunities. It's the pastor trying to get in, told you we'd be interrupted.
Matt Edmundson: By the pastor too.
James Sloan: Yeah, of all people. We've been playing a little joke, putting a dinosaur in each other's offices. So, he's probably come to check if I found the dinosaur. This is what I have to look at, this kind of thing.
Matt Edmundson: That's not what, that's not what I'd call a little dinosaur James, I'm not going to lie.
James Sloan: No, it’s quite big and scary but it's been going back and forth between our offices. This is what happens in these kinds of environments. You see? We've had to find ways to keep ourselves amused. But yeah, what I'm saying was the Bible's full of stories of where there's just reckless, you know, think of the prodigal son, or the father's two sons is how it’s probably better known, that was culturally unacceptable for him to do what he did and to show that extravagant, reckless love for a child who basically took the mick and took all his inheritance. But that's essentially the message of the gospel. It said God gave his son Jesus to come and die for us in our place. And that was a reckless, extravagant love that he's shown to us. And I believe it's our duty to show that to others. And through imagine if, we have a real opportunity to witness to people and to show that love, and hopefully to change lives and see people restored from their past.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's brilliant. And it's interesting listening, because it's almost come full circle because that's what you saw in your parents, right? That's what you had modelled to you growing up, that sort of sense of grace and adventure were the two things that I wrote down in my little notes here and how you are carrying that forward into Imagine if, it's a sense of adventure. You never know what's around the corner or what's going to happen today, right?
James Sloan: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: But there's also that sense of being able to extend grace to people and show the grace of God, which I think is extraordinary. So, James, that's been brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us here on the podcast and sharing your story. I've honestly really enjoyed our little chat. Um, and so it's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much.
James Sloan: No, it’s a pleasure. Thanks for having me on.
Matt Edmundson: So, there you have it. What's a great story. Huge thanks again to James for joining me today. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast from, because we have got even more stories about faith and courage from everyday people lined up and ready to go, and we don't want you to miss any of them. And whilst you are there, subscribing or liking, you know, the thumbs up, the notifications, wherever you are listening to this, why not subscribe also to the Crowd Church livestream? Come say hi in the comments if you are around 6:00 PM, every Sunday, we livestream on Facebook and YouTube. If you want to know what time that is for your local country, 6:00 PM in the UK, just either Google it or go to our website. There's a little link, which is super helpful and it will let you know what time that is for you. It's going to be great to see you there. So do come and join us. And in case no one has told you today, you, my friend, are awesome. Yes, you are. Absolutely awesome. Utterly awesome. It's just the way that God has made you. And it is a burden we just have to carry. Yes, we do. Now what's the story is a podcast produced by Crowd Church. You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favourite podcast app. The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, George McCague, Estella Robin, and Tim Johnson. Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson. And if you would like to read the transcript or show notes from today's show, head over to our website, www.crowd.church, where you can also sign up for our newsletter.