Dating isn't shopping

15 Feb

YouTube Video of the Church Service

Have you ever swiped through a dating app and realised you're browsing people the same way you'd scroll through ASOS? Filter by height. Filter by interests. Swipe left. Swipe right. Next. Sharon Edmundson brought a refreshingly honest perspective to Crowd Church this week, asking a question that cuts right to the heart of modern romance — what happens when we start treating people like products?

It turns out the Bible has far more to say about dating than most of us expect. Not because it lays out a rulebook, but because it offers a completely unique way of seeing the people we date. Sharon unpacks an ancient framework that, despite being thousands of years old, speaks directly to the exhaustion, insecurity, and loneliness that so many of us experience in modern relationships.

Why Dating Feels So Exhausting

The stats are sobering. 78% of Gen Z report dating app burnout. 65% of 16 to 29 year olds in the UK feel lonely. We have more ways to meet and connect with people than ever before, yet we are more isolated and more anxious about relationships than ever.

Sharon suggests that one of the key reasons for this is that dating apps and the culture around us encourage us to treat dating as though we were shopping. She compared it to internet shopping for clothes — refining searches, swiping past anything that doesn't match, ordering what looks right, and sending it back if it doesn't fit.

"With dating apps and the culture around it, it's easy to get into that same consumer mindset and treat people as though they're just products to obtain or fit our requirements."

She was careful to point out that dating apps aren't wrong in themselves — they can be a useful tool for meeting people. The issue is the mindset we bring to them.

What Happens When People Become Products

Sharon walked through four consequences of the consumer dating mindset, and each one landed with uncomfortable familiarity.

Continual swiping creates the illusion of endless options. We get the dopamine hit of a match and the ego boost of being chosen, but months go by without a genuine deep connection. Everyone becomes disposable. Including us.

Situationships — where we keep our options open and avoid putting a label on things — start out feeling safe but end up making us feel insecure. We're attached without knowing where we stand.

Checklists are useful for internet shopping, and having some non-negotiables in a relationship is sensible. But when the list becomes a search for the perfect person, we end up rejecting people for trivial reasons. The perfect person doesn't exist.

Physical intimacy without commitment leaves us vulnerable. As Sharon put it, we've given our body to someone, but we haven't given our whole selves, and they haven't given theirs either.

Every Person Carries the Image of God

So does the Bible have anything useful to say about all this? No, but also a big yes.

No, because dating as we think of it didn't really exist in biblical times. You were single, betrothed, or married. But the Bible has a huge amount to say about romantic and sexual relationships, and how we treat each other in general.

The starting point is Genesis 1:27 — God created mankind in his own image. According to the Bible, no one is a product to be consumed. Every person we swipe past on an app carries the image of God. Every person we ghost, or who ghosts us, carries the image of God. And so do we.

Then there's Philippians 2:3-4 — do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves. Not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others.

Dating shouldn't be about using other people or just looking to get our own needs met.

The Covenant Dating Mindset

Sharon proposed a radical alternative to consumer dating — what she called a covenant dating mindset. Instead of shopping for a partner, we approach dating as the beginning of a process to discover whether someone could be a covenant partner for life.

She drew from the marriage covenant process in Jesus' time, where commitment and vows came first, and physical intimacy followed. The whole process pointed to something bigger — the kind of relationship God wants to have with us. One of love, commitment, security, vulnerability, and passion.

Using the story from Genesis 24, where Abraham's servant searches for a wife for Isaac, Sharon drew out three practical principles.

Choose shared values over shared interests. Abraham didn't want a spiritual mismatch for his son. Shared interests are great, but shared values are more important because true faith works itself out in every area of life — how we treat people, what we do with money, how we make decisions about work. Dating is the time to ask the big questions and find out if you're genuinely aligned on what matters most.

Character is revealed in the mundane. In the story, Rebecca showed her character when she didn't realise she was being evaluated — she offered to water the servant's camels without being asked. Have you ever dated someone who said all the right stuff and made the grand romantic gestures, but didn't have the character to back it up? Dating is a time to find out what someone's really like when no one's watching.

Get input from others. The servant asked God for help, and there was family discussion. The wisdom of community was involved. Sharon shared how when she and Matt had a brief split during dating, it was input from someone older and wiser that got them back on track. Sometimes a trusted friend can see the red flags we miss because we're too love-blind to see.

Grace for the Mess-Ups

Sharon was honest about this too. If you're listening to all this and thinking "well, I've already blown it," you're in good company. We all have, in one way or another.

The good news is that when we turn from the way we've been living and turn to Jesus, he's gracious and loving and accepts us with open arms. That invitation is always open.

Conversation Street

Is dating harder now than it used to be?

The panel had a fascinating discussion about how dating has changed. Mike Harris shared how dating before apps required more upfront vulnerability — you had to actually meet someone face to face without the safety net of a curated profile. Matt talked about the paradox of choice — having too many options can actually make us more indecisive, not less. Sharon reflected that meeting through a friendship group meant you already knew each other, which removed a lot of the awkwardness of first dates.

Doesn't the covenant idea sound quite transactional?

Katherine raised this in the comments, and it sparked a great conversation. Matt acknowledged the concern but argued that covenant thinking is actually incredibly secure. He pointed to the Song of Solomon — a book of passionate love poetry in the Old Testament — as evidence that covenant relationships are anything but dry and transactional. Sharon added that all throughout the Old Testament, you see the passionate longing of God for his people. There are agreements and boundaries, but there's also incredible passion.

Mike made a personal observation — that when he discovered how much God loved him through the Song of Solomon, he became more secure and less needy, and therefore a much better person to date.

Why are the Bible's boundaries around sex so hard to follow?

Matt was candid about this. Every message the culture sends says sex is casual, boundaries are repressive, and desire should be immediately fulfilled. Add in the reality that delayed gratification is one of the hardest things for human beings, and it's no wonder people struggle.

He also pointed out that the church hasn't always helped here. Too often the message has been shame-based — "don't do it because it's dirty" — rather than vision-based — "wait, because you've got something sacred." Sharon extended this with a broader point about boundaries, noting that research shows children who grow up without any boundaries actually have worse mental health outcomes. Boundaries aren't restrictions — they're protection.

Mike emphasised that keeping boundaries is nearly impossible alone. The only reason he and his wife managed it was because of the community of people around them — older married couples who encouraged them and kept them accountable. And Sharon added that this has to be healthy community, not toxic community that piles on shame and guilt.

Any advice on being single when all your friends are in relationships?

Matt was careful not to offer easy answers here, acknowledging that being single and not wanting to be is genuinely hard. He challenged those who are in relationships to be more intentional about including single friends, rather than letting married life pull them into a bubble.

Sharon pointed out that romantic relationships aren't the only satisfying relationships — we're made for different types — and that the Bible actually views singleness really positively. Paul said he'd rather people be single than married. Jesus was single. But that doesn't diminish the pain if singleness isn't what you want.

Matt also mentioned how loneliness isn't just the absence of people. Loneliness is the absence of being truly known. And being truly known can happen in all kinds of relationships, not just romantic ones.

Sometimes the bravest thing is to break it off

Matt and Sharon shared from years of watching couples date, get engaged, and get married — and some of them divorce. In many cases, the issues were visible during dating, but neither person had the courage to end things. Once invitations are sent and the church is booked, it becomes almost impossible to call it off.

Sharon shared her own story of saying no to a guy she really liked because he wasn't a Christian. At the time, it was incredibly hard. Looking back, she's deeply grateful she did it.

As Matt put it — if you're in your early twenties, breaking off a relationship can feel heartbreaking. But your 40-year-old self is thanking you.

Your Next Step This Week

Ask yourself why you're dating. Is it to find validation, to avoid loneliness, or to genuinely explore whether someone could be a lifelong partner? Your "why" shapes everything.
Have the values conversation. If you're currently dating, try asking some of the deeper questions — what matters most to you? What would you do if things got really difficult? The book 101 Questions to Ask Before You Get Engaged is a brilliant conversation starter.
Find your people. Whether you're single, dating, or married, you need honest community around you. People who can see what you can't and love you enough to tell you the truth.
Look at the person, not the profile. Next time you're on an app or meeting someone new, remind yourself — this person carries the image of God. They're not a product. Neither are you.
Give yourself grace. If you've made mistakes in dating (who hasn't?), the invitation to turn around and start fresh is always open. That's what grace is for.

More Than a Match

Dating doesn't have to be an exhausting cycle of swiping, ghosting, and situationships. It can actually point us to something deeper — the covenant love that God has for each of us.

What if the goal of dating wasn't to find the perfect person, but to find someone you can be imperfect with? Someone who shares your values, reveals good character in the mundane, and is willing to do the hard, beautiful work of commitment?

Because the truth is, the perfect person doesn't exist. But real love — the kind that stays, that commits, that knows you fully and chooses you anyway — that's exactly what God offers. And it might just be the best model for dating we've ever been given.

# Dating Isn't Shopping
## [00:00:00] Welcome to Crowd Church \+ Tonight’s Topic: Courting & Dating
[00:00:00] Matt Edmundson: My name is Matt and welcome to Crowd. Crowd is an online church, uh, where we look at this whole thing called Faith in Christianity and try and figure out how it applies for us today and what it actually means and how it's gonna work for us.
So it's great that you are here. Beside me is the beautiful Mike Harris. Mike, how are we doing?
[00:00:20] Mike Harris: I'm doing really well. Yeah. Welcome to all of you. Great to be here. And really excited, really powerful topic. So yeah, really looking forward to what, uh, Sharon's got to share.
[00:00:32] Matt Edmundson: And that leads me nicely to my beautiful wife who sat beside me.
Good evening.
[00:00:36] Sharon Edmundson: Hello.
[00:00:37] Matt Edmundson: Hi everybody. Good evening to you. Like can I just twist that microphone a little? There we go.
[00:00:40] Sharon Edmundson: Hi, everybody.
[00:00:42] Matt Edmundson: You doing all right?
[00:00:42] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:00:43] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. You ready?
[00:00:44] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:00:44] Matt Edmundson: Oh, excellent. So tonight we are talking about courting and dating. Now if you are already courting and dating, this is gonna be helpful.
If you are not, it's gonna be helpful. If you are married, listen up, especially men. 'cause I am told by some of the wisest people on the planet. That men should never stop dating their wives. So, uh, there's gonna be a lot of helpful content, uh, tonight. Um, but hopefully it's gonna be good for everybody. So, yeah, do grab your notebooks.
Do grab your pens because we are gonna get into the topic.
## [00:01:17] How to Join In: Comments, Questions & “Conversation Street”
[00:01:17] Matt Edmundson: Now, rules of engagement. If this is your first time with us and you are live, you can say hi in the comments we've got Dan, uh, on the Crowd Church comments tonight. He'll be joining in and saying hello. Um, so do let us know where you're watching from.
Any questions, any thoughts, any ideas, put them in the comments. Um, and we will hopefully get to those during Conversation Street, which is the bit after the talk. So we're gonna have Sharon do the talk in a little minute. Um, after that, me, Mike, and Sharon are gonna talk about this whole thing about dating, and we're gonna hopefully get to the questions which you put in the comments.
Uh, so do get put in those, in the comments. Uh, it'd be great to, uh, to pick those up. Um, aid. Sonya, good evening. Just checking on the comments, who's in there? Um, always nice to see you, your pair of legends. So without further, have I missed it? Have I forgotten anything? I think that's pretty much, 'cause normally we have a little video at the start, don't we?
## [00:02:14] After the Stream: What Is Live Lounge?
[00:02:14] Matt Edmundson: Um, oh, live lounge. That's what I forgot. So, live Lounge, um, the way we're we do Crowd is we do this sort of interaction through the camera, um, and through the YouTube comments. Mm-hmm. After the service has come to an end, as in as the end of the live stream, we move to live lounge, which if you are watching online and would like to join us, we would love to meet you in there.
Basically it's like a Google meet, which is like Zoom, which is like Skype if you go back far enough. Um, but we're gonna meet on Google and um, you can turn your camera on if you like. If you don't, that's not a problem. But it'd be great to meet you in there. Come say hello. Um, I'll be in there. Mike will probably be in there at the end of the service.
Um, Sharon will probably be in there. Some of us will be in there, some of us will be tidying up. I dunno which ones are gonna be which, but we do have a live lounge. Um, and it'll be great to see you in there. Uh, do come and say hello. Um, so I think that's everything now. Uh, he says, just check in. Matt Crew is off to bed.
That's an early night, Matt. Okay. Fair enough. Uh, Dan's in the comments as well. Good evening everyone. So without further ado, let me hand over to the most brilliance, the most beautiful, the most astounding woman to ever walk on God's green planet. That, of course, is my wife. Over to you.
## [00:03:35] Sharon’s Talk Begins: Why Dating Feels Exhausting Now
[00:03:35] Sharon Edmundson: Well, what an introduction.
There's a lot to live up to. So, as Matt said before, today we're gonna look at the subject of dating and I'm gonna look at three questions. One, why are we so exhausted by dating? Two, what happens when we treat relationships like shopping? And three, does the Bible have any life giving wisdom for us on this topic?
So firstly, let's define what we mean by dating. Part of the problem with the word dating is it can mean different things to different people. It can mean from anything from short-term fun with no commitment to long-term partnership. So here I'm going to use it to mean any romantic or sexual relationship that's not marriage.
So back in the days before I was married, when I was dating my now husband, who you've just seen, dating seemed relatively simple. The internet was only just beginning to take off. So there wasn't any internet dating and you had to meet the old fashioned way in person. We met in church and we were part of the same extended friendship group.
We dated for about five months with a short split up in the middle, and then we're engaged for 10 months before getting married, and this year will be our 28th wedding anniversary. I can hardly believe it such a long time, but these days, the way we meet a romantic partner has changed a long, in a long time.
In a good way. I've got heckling from the sidelines here. Okay. While many still meet through Friends Universal work dating apps and sites are now the single most common way couples first meet in many Western countries, especially the UK and the us. So I've watched several people I know of various ages who are in the dating stage, who used dating apps.
And to be honest, it looks exhausting and I've been told by many that it actually is exhausting. And this is backed up by recent data, which says that 78% of Gen Z, that's the 14 to 29 year olds, report dating app burnout. Also the Office for National STA statistics shows that 65% of 16 to 29 year olds in the UK feel lonely.
So we've got more ways to meet and connect with people than ever before, but we are more isolated and more anxious about relationships than ever.
## [00:05:51] Dating Apps & the Consumer Mindset: When People Become Products
[00:05:51] Sharon Edmundson: So that brings me to the first question that I want to look at, which is, why are we so exhausted by dating? Now, I realize this is a broad, um, a broad statement which didn't refer to everybody, but there are many different theories as to why this is.
But I want to focus on one of them, and that is that dating apps and the culture around us encourage us to treat dating as though we were shopping. We have a consumer mindset. So as a general rule, I don't like shopping as soon as I've set foot in the first shop. I've had enough, but I am much better at internet shopping, especially for clothes, because with internet shopping, I can refine my search to what the item is that I want, what color, what size, what style, what fabric.
And at a glance I can just swipe past all the items that I don't want and just focus on the ones that I do. I can order, get just what I want delivered to my door. And when the clothes arrive I can try them on. And if they don't fit or I don't like them, I just send them back no questions asked. And with dating apps and the culture around, it's getting easy to get into that same consumer mindset and treat people as though they're just products to obtain or fit our requirements.
I'm not saying that dating apps are wrong in and of themselves. They can actually be a really useful tool for meeting people a way of like being proactive. I'm just saying that these days it's easy to have a, um, a consumer mindset to dating.
## [00:07:26] Treating Relationships Like Shopping: Swiping, Situationships, Checklists & Sex
[00:07:26] Sharon Edmundson: So my next question is, what happens when we treat relationships like shopping?
So, firstly, there's a continual swiping. It can make us feel like there are endless possibilities. We are in control. We can decide at a glance if someone's worst gain to know. We get that dopamine hit of a match, and the ego boost are being chosen. But then months can go by before we've realized we've not really connected with anyone on a deep level.
Everyone is disposable, including us. Then there's the situationship. We wanted to protect ourselves and feel safe by keeping our options open and not putting a label on the relationship. But now we find we've got ourselves attached without knowing how the other person feels. We want more from the relationship, but we don't know if the other person does too.
The ambiguity of where the boundaries are felt safe to begin with now actually make us feel insecure. Then there's a checklist. Very useful for internet shopping, to be honest. And actually it is also useful to have a list of some non-negotiables, um, with a relationship. But how about when your list becomes the search for the perfect person, only to find the perfect person doesn't exist, or you find yourself rejecting people for trivial reasons.
And how about sexual intimacy? We have needs, we think they should be fulfilled, whatever we desire. But then we've given our body to someone, but we haven't given our whole selves, and they haven't given their whole selves either. We've been vulnerable without commitment, and now we feel well vulnerable.
## [00:09:06] Does the Bible Speak to Dating? Image-Bearers, Humility & Valuing Others
[00:09:06] Sharon Edmundson: Does the Bible have any life giving wisdom for us on this topic? The answer is no, but also a big yes. So no, because dating relationships, as we think of them. Didn't really exist in the Bible. You were considered either single betrothed or married. And marriages were typically arranged by families to benefit the family as well as the couple.
So the Bible doesn't specifically mention dating, however, it does have a huge amount to say about romantic and sexual relationships and how to treat each other in general. And what it says is still totally relevant to us today. It's also very controversial and very counter-cultural. So good place to start is Genesis.
Uh, this is one, Genesis one, verse 27, which says, so, God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God, he created them, male and female, he created them. According to the Bible, no one is a product to be consumed. We are all image bearers of God, and that gives us worth and value. That is our starting point.
Every person that we swipe past on an app carries the image of God. Every person we ghost or who ghosts us carries the image of of God, and so do we. And that matters. And then there's this from Philippians. It says, do nothing out of selfish ambition or VA conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves.
Not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others. Great verses dating shouldn't be about using other people or just looking to get our own needs met by in valuing people. So how else can the Bible help us with dating? To talk about that.
## [00:11:03] Marriage as Covenant: Commitment Before Intimacy (Biblical Framework)
[00:11:03] Sharon Edmundson: I first wanna take a brief look at what the Bible has to say about marriage and work backwards to dating.
Hopefully it'll make sense. Why at the end? So marriage is a theme that runs throughout the Bible. In the beginning of the first book, there's a marriage with Adam and Eve, and in the last book, revelation, there's also a marriage this time between Jesus and the church. That's his his people. So throughout the Bible, God's relationship with his people is likened to a marriage, and there are also parables about marriage.
And then Ephesians five says this, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery, but I'm talking about Christ and the church. As John Piper says in his book, this Momentary Marriage, the meaning of marriage is to display, um, the covenant.
Keeping love between Christ and his people. And covenant is the key word here. Marriage is not just a social construct according to the Bible, it's something created by God. To give us a glimpse into a higher spiritual truth is to show us what sort of relationship God wants to have with us. One of love of commitment, security, vulnerability, and passion.
We have a whole talk about marriage as a covenant on the Crowd website, so I'm not gonna go into loads of detail, but I wanna look at some key parts of the marriage, covenant process from Jesus' time and how that might relate to the concept of dating today. So, as I said before, covenants were often not just between individuals but whole families.
They weren't just a contract. They were about becoming one, about me giving all of myself to you for your benefit and you doing the same for me. So the first stage of a marriage covenant was the negotiation. So families discussed and agreed the terms of the covenant. The second stage was betrayal, and this was a legal agreement.
Vows, um, would've been said and gifts exchanged. And after this stage, if you wanted to get out of it, you had to get divorced. This is why in the Christmas story, Joseph considered divorcing Mary even though they weren't actually married yet. The next was the waiting stage, not like a passive waiting, but waiting with anticipation and preparation.
The groom would go back to his home, uh, to his village to prepare a house or maybe rooms in his father's house for his bride. While she prepared herself for her new home and her new life, the Betroth couple still live separately. They'd keep themselves morally and sexually pure. At a later date, the groom would then come back to the bride's village to collect her, and there'd be a great procession.
And the final stage was consummation of the marriage, followed by a feast lasting for days. So sex was an outward sign of the two, becoming one in every other way as well. Commitment and vows came first, and then physical intimacy. So all of these stages relate to our relationship with God. And I don't have time to go into them all here, but I'll just give you one example so you can see what I mean.
So Jesus said to his disciples, my father's house as many rooms. If that were not, so, I would've told you. Um, I'm going there to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I'll come back and take you with me so that you also may be where I am. Doesn't that sound like the waiting stage in the covenant process where the bride groom goes away back to his father's house to prepare a a place for his bride?
That's exactly what it's meant to sound like. So we see throughout the Bible that God's design was for the public commitment of the couple to come first and the intimacy to follow, not the other way round. Now, that might be a new way of thinking for you. It may seem old fashioned, but hear me out.
Hopefully as I keep talking, you'll get a glimpse of the beauty of God's design.
## [00:15:11] Covenant Dating Mindset \+ Genesis 24: Values, Character, Community Input
[00:15:11] Sharon Edmundson: So I'd like to propose that instead of thinking of dating as shopping, we could change our mindset to think of it as a covenant dating part of this covenant process. If we look at it like this, dating for the Christ follower is about finding a suitable covenant partner to marry someone with whom you would be able to live out a covenant relationship that honors God and his design for marriage.
If you already know that you would not want that kind of relationship with someone, there's no need to date them, but how do you know if they would make a good covenant partner? There's so much that I could say here. Honestly, trying to um, condense all this down is a hard task. So I'm just gonna stick to three suggestions based on a passage in Genesis.
Again, Genesis 24. It's a really long passage, so I'm just gonna give you a kind of outline of the story and then bring some principles out of it. So the story starts with Abraham, who was getting on a bit, and he wants to see his son Isaac, married. So he sends his servant back to their own people to find a wife.
For Isaac, he didn't wanna find a, um, his son, a wife locally, as the women there didn't worship the same God. So the servant arrives just outside the city in the evening and takes his camels to the well. He prays to God to help him find a suitable woman. And even before he's finished praying, a woman called Rebecca arrives to draw water.
He asks her for some water and she not only gives him some water, but also offers, um, to water his camels without being asked. He then gives her jewelry and she invites him back to the family where the family dis discuss terms of the marriage. I know it sounds very alien to how we do things now, but it is still relevant.
But, um, stick with me. So she agrees to the marriage and goes back to the servant to meet Isaac, um, and then they get married. So how can this help us? Firstly, it shows us to choose shared values over shared interests. Shared interests are great, but shared values are more important. Abraham didn't want a spiritual mismatch for his son.
It wasn't about finding someone of the same ethnicity. It was about finding someone who shared that same covenant faith. Because true faith works itself out in every area of life. How we treat people, what we do with our money, how we choose where to work, everything. So it's important to be aligned in that.
So dating is a great time to ask lots of questions to find out if you really are aligned in the most important thing, not just in your values, but do you want the same things out of life? You're not, definitely not gonna think the same about everything. If you do, one of you is probably superfluous. But I'm constant, constantly, constantly surprised.
When I watch, um, TV shows where they've got a couple and one person, then the couple like talks about wanting kids and then the other says, oh, I didn't know you wanted kids. I don't want them. This is the sort of thing you need to talk about while you're dating. And you might find the book, um, I think it's 101 Questions to Ask Before You Get Engaged.
Really useful for sparking discussion because it's, um, somebody's thought through what are the key things that you really need to know about somebody. So secondly, character is revealed in the mundane in the story. Rebecca showed her character when she didn't realize she was being evaluated. Character matters.
Have you ever dated someone who said all the right stuff and made the grand romantic gestures, but didn't have the character to back it all up? What's your partner like when no one's watching? Are they servant hearted or are they selfish? Are they generous or are they stingy? Are they teachable or do they know it all Already?
Dating is a time to find out what your partner's real character is and thirdly, get input from others. The servant asked God for help. It's a great place to start, but there was also family discussion. The wisdom of the father and the community was involved when Matt and I were dating and we had the little brief split because I had a wobble.
Mm-hmm. It was input from someone older and wiser that got us back on track. On the flip side, someone, sometimes a trusted friend or family member can see the red flags that we miss because we are too love blind to see.
## [00:19:46] Grace for the Mess-Ups: Repentance, Good News & Sharon’s Summary
[00:19:46] Sharon Edmundson: So what if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well, I've blown all that already.
God's never gonna accept me. Um, for a start. You're in good company. We've all blown it in one way or another, but there's hope, there's good news. Before Jesus started bringing his message, there was another guy with a message, John the Baptist. He was like the trailer for a film. He set the scene for Jesus' ministry and his message was this, repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
In other words, God's kingdom, his way of doing things is close. Stop going the way you've been going. Stop living that how you've been living, turn around, change direction. And then Jesus came along and showed us which direction to go in. He showed us how God's kingdom works. Jesus came to give us good news.
The good news is that when we turn from the way we've been living and turn to him, he's gracious and he's loving and he accepts us with open arms. And that invitation is always open to us. So in summary, instead of having a co, um, consumer mindset to dating, why not have a, um, a covenant dating mindset?
Dating is an opportunity to see if we are spiritually, I'm with aligned with someone and to see if they've got a good character to see if we would make good covenant partners. It's an opportunity to get input from people who are older and wiser than ourselves. And it can also point us to something greater than our earthly relationships.
It can point us to that covenant love that our, our heavenly father has for us. I'm gonna hand back to the guys now and, um, yeah, see what the comments are.
[00:21:26] Matt Edmundson: Okay.
## [00:21:27] Conversation Street Starts: Reacting to the Talk & Is Dating Harder Now?
[00:21:27] Matt Edmundson: Well, great talk babe. Bobs.
[00:21:30] Mike Harris: Yeah, that was f that really, really good.
[00:21:33] Matt Edmundson: It's interesting, isn't it? Talking about data. How long have you been married?
[00:21:37] Mike Harris: 20 something years.
[00:21:40] Matt Edmundson: More than 20. Less than 30.
[00:21:43] Mike Harris: In that ballpark. 23.
[00:21:48] Matt Edmundson: You think it's, I hope Deb's not watching.
[00:21:49] Mike Harris: I hope she isn't. Yeah.
[00:21:52] Matt Edmundson: The good news is we've got it on video and can use it as blackmail. Dan, how long have you been married?
[00:21:58] Mike Harris: Yeah, it'll be 20 this year.
[00:22:00] Matt Edmundson: 20 years this year. Geez.
[00:22:01] Mike Harris: Wow.
[00:22:02] Matt Edmundson: So it's interesting talking about dating again, isn't it?
Mm-hmm. And going back to that, so here's my first question for you. I mean, you obviously you've got teenage kids. We've got a teenage kid, and the others are in their twenties. Um, Dayton. Do you think it's easier now or do you think it was easier when we were dating back when Noah was around?
[00:22:27] Mike Harris: Um, well, I, I think one thing that I think was potentially harder back then is, is you, you had to be a bit more vulnerable because you had to actually meet the person.
Yeah. And so they couldn't see the very, very best of you. For before, before you met. Yeah. You know, you, you, yeah. You had to present yourself
[00:22:53] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:22:54] Mike Harris: To them. And so I suppose in that respect, um, it was maybe more difficult 'cause you had to be a bit more vulnerable. I, I, I don't, I don't like the idea of the dating app.
I, I would've found it terrifying. And as someone who relied on positive feedback, still does. For someone to not accept me would must be for, for some people really, really hard.
[00:23:24] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Mike Harris: Um, and I would've found that terribly difficult.
[00:23:27] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:28] Mike Harris: Um. I think that that would've been difficult. Yeah.
[00:23:32] Matt Edmundson: What do you think?
[00:23:33] Sharon Edmundson: Well, like I said in the talk, I think it looks really complicated now. I think I just prefer, I think because with the way we met, we were in a friendship group already, so you kind of got to know each other already. So there wasn't that big, like, I dunno, yeah. Just that first date or are we gonna have anything to talk about?
Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean?
[00:23:55] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:23:56] Sharon Edmundson: Um,
[00:23:57] Matt Edmundson: no, I do, I think, I think you're both right. I think it's probably harder in both generations.
[00:24:02] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:02] Matt Edmundson: In some ways. I think it was, so we had fewer options if you think about it. Do you know what I mean? In, in terms of we didn't have the instant access to, to great big databases.
Mm-hmm. But then you've also got this endless, um, options without the framework. So then you've got, you, you run into something called the paradox of choice. Mm-hmm.
[00:24:24] Sharon Edmundson: Which
[00:24:24] Matt Edmundson: is where you have. Too much choice, too many things going on. Um, which means you don't actually make a decision at all. You, you are indecisive.
So the more choice you have, the more indecisive you become, if that makes sense.
[00:24:38] Mike Harris: Yeah,
[00:24:39] Matt Edmundson: yeah. Um, and I, and I think yes, we had our own struggles back we were dating. Um, but it it's interesting isn't it when you think about, um, like our, Josh, our son, our oldest son, he's getting married. He met his fiance at university, um, not on a dating app.
So even our kids haven't mm-hmm. Are you wanna date an app episode? And I dunno about it. Five of them. Okay. We gonna talk later. Um, as,
but yeah, I think it's interesting. I think, I think the way dating is done now, like you say it. We're talking about it. I mean, obviously we had to do dating to get married. Um, but in terms of the app culture, that's something that I think has, has not his.
[00:25:33] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah,
[00:25:33] Mike Harris: no,
[00:25:34] Sharon Edmundson: and I'm aware as well that like, for doing talks, like I said, there is so many different ways you can go and there's just a limit to how much you can do.
So we tend to go down one route, but everybody's experience is potentially different.
[00:25:48] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:25:48] Sharon Edmundson: Do you know what I mean? Some might have like amazing experiences with dating apps or meeting in person or, or the other way round. So Yeah.
[00:25:56] Mike Harris: Yeah. I, I, one of the other things I think whilst you're doing the talk is, you know, looking to a book that was wrote thousands of years ago that, that doesn't mention dating for, for, um, you know, for inspiration around dating.
I can see for a lot of people would be like. That is a very strange thing to do.
[00:26:20] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:21] Mike Harris: Um, and it's only like in the past, you know, I've, I've been a Christian for a long time, but it's only in the past sort of year that I've looked, my understanding of the Bible, the way I look at it, has changed. So now I look a, at it a lot more like, this is wisdom, wisdom literature.
[00:26:38] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:26:39] Mike Harris: And I think rather than like,
rather than looking at it as like a, almost like a pick a mix and trying to find that one thing from here and one thing from there. Yeah. And looking at it as wisdom literature. And I think like one of the things that whilst there was listen to you Sharon, is that there is just so much wisdom mm-hmm. In it.
If, if you're gonna place God and Jesus as your highest value, then there is so much wisdom in it. But, but definitely, you know, for somebody you could see why somebody would think this is an archaic way to think about how you're gonna. Date someone. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah,
[00:27:17] Matt Edmundson: no, you can, I think it's an interesting idea, isn't it?
## [00:27:19] Covenant vs Transactional: Song of Solomon, Passion, Security & Neediness
[00:27:19] Matt Edmundson: Because Catherine's put here in the comments that it's interesting to hear about the covenant idea, but it sounds quite transactional and perhaps lacking in fun, which again is interesting, isn't it? Because it's like, um, I guess it's the, the reason why you're approaching dating in the first place.
Mm-hmm. Right? So when I was 16 and was dating, which I obviously, um, uh, is, it's not like when I'm, when I was 16, I'm, I have a covenant mindset, right? Because I'm just 16, I'm, the culture is what the culture is, and so
[00:27:58] Sharon Edmundson: I'm not a Christian
[00:27:59] Matt Edmundson: and I wasn't a Christian, uh, quite right. Um, but is it transactional? I think if you look at it from an arranged marriage point of view, it could come across that way.
Mm-hmm.
[00:28:12] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:28:12] Matt Edmundson: Um, I, I, I see how, how you would get that, but I think the flip side is to, covenant thinking is it's incredibly secure, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Because, um, I, I, I'm not an advocate of you start dating because you think you're gonna marry that person. And I don't think that's what we're saying. I, but I think it's a case of if I know I'm not gonna marry that person, then why would I date?
And I think that's a much more interesting question. Um, but I think that you are in this process to find out could this become someone that I could covenant with for the rest of my life? Yeah. And that I think is wonderful. And in fact, the Song of Solomon's talks about this quite a lot, doesn't it?
Mm-hmm. And you've got the, the Song of Solomon's is a book in the Old Testament, written by Solomon, the wisest man that ever lived. And it's just, it's a love story about how he chases, um, the, what the Bible calls a Shulamite woman. He chases the shulamite, doesn't he? And he goes through this process of him in a positive way, in a very positive way.
And there's
[00:29:20] Sharon Edmundson: not in a
[00:29:21] Matt Edmundson: tracking you down, they, they get engaged, they get married, um, and they have their ups, they have their downs. They have quite a lot of nookie in the book of Song of Solomon. I mean, it's just, there's a lot going on. But the thing that comes across in that whole thing is this guy is relentless after this woman, and he's relentless after God.
And I think if you can find somebody that is relentless after you, and relentless after God. That, that for me sounds interesting.
[00:29:56] Sharon Edmundson: I think as well that the book of Song of Songs or Song of Solomon, as you mentioned, it's um, it speaks on two levels. It speaks on that, that particular couple. But it also, again, it's pointing us to how God feels about us.
And there's so much passion in that book. And actually all throughout the Old Testament, you see like the passionate longing of God for his people. It's not just transactional. There are definite agreements and boundaries and like, I will do this for you and you do this for me. So there is that side, but there's also an incredible amount of passion.
And so yeah, I don't think it is that, that dryness that might have come across. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's ev it's everything all mixed together. Yeah.
[00:30:44] Mike Harris: I, I think that's really key because I think, like, you know, when I started dating, um, I was desperate for people to like me. I was desperate for people to fancy me.
I was desperate for people to want to be going out with me. And so when, you know, it wasn't until, you know, later on that actually, I wish this had happened a lot earlier. Once you discover life from the song of Solomon, how much God loves you, you become, and, and you become a lot more secure and a lot less needy, and therefore a lot more attractive.
Mm-hmm. Um, a lot better at, at dating than, than what I was. Um, he was, you know, someone, he was pretty desperate. Just, oh, I
[00:31:33] Matt Edmundson: wanna go there, Mike, why are you not gonna date him?
[00:31:37] Mike Harris: Well, I suppose one of the things is I, you know, I was brought up in, in, um, you know, I a great mom and dad, but you know, I was brought up in sport Mm.
Where it was all about trying to be better than the other person and all the, all the time trying to strive for something you didn't quite have. And so I think like that competitive mindset and all of that, I dunno, I I was always searching for someone to say, you've done it, you've, you've achieved it, you've got there.
And so I, I guess I carried that into dating, but, but yeah, I think we've become. A lot more attractive when you are, when you're less desperate. But that's really hard, isn't it?
[00:32:13] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:14] Mike Harris: That's really hard. Mm-hmm.
[00:32:16] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
## [00:32:16] Taking a Break From Dating to Learn What the Bible Says
[00:32:16] Matt Edmundson: I mean, when I first became a Christian, um, when I was 18 years old, uh, I dated a couple girls then whilst I was trying to figure out what being a Christian and dating meant, right?
Because you're, you're bridging two worlds and two ways of thinking. And I remember just going, I've not got this. I, I, I'm missing something. And I've talked about marriage before on, on Crowd, and I'm like, ultimately I want to get married. And I grew up in a single parent family, right? So I, I'd not really seen marriage modeled well until I came to, to, to church.
And so I remember taking a, I was just like, God, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna date anybody. I'm gonna stay single for a period of time. Like, let's just be clear. I didn't want this to be my life, but I, I wanted for a period of time to be like, I need to study the Bible here. I need to figure out what scripture has to say about, um, dating and sex and marriage.
I wrote a, I wrote the first book I ever wrote. Right? It was called Dating and Sex and Marriage. Believe that when I was like 22 or 23 or something like that.
[00:33:28] Sharon Edmundson: And our best men really took the mick out of you at our wedding for
[00:33:30] Matt Edmundson: that, didn't they? That really did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, in fact, Tony, my best man sent me a text message the other week, didn't he?
He, he moved house and he found a copy of the book. Um, and I'm like, dude, I really need to see that. 'cause I'm just like, that will be cringe worthy. But the, the thing about it was that was me writing down and studying what the Bible had to say about these topics because I didn't have a grasp on it. And it took me about two years to studying it out, because, like you said, the.
If I went into a relationship with those insecurities, with that shame, with that guilt that I was carrying, that wouldn't not have been good.
## [00:34:11] Insecurity, Validation & Letting God Do the Deep Work First
[00:34:11] Sharon Edmundson: I totally relate to what both of you're saying. Again, I think when I first started dating, I was again, very insecure. I guess we all kind of go through that stage.
Yeah. At some point, don't we? And relationships to me, were a way of getting validation. So it wasn't really about, I guess giving myself or Do you know what I mean? It was much more about, okay, I need you to make me feel good.
[00:34:34] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:35] Sharon Edmundson: Which is not a great reason to date, really. So I can definitely, I think what, after God had done so much in me and given me much more security, that's a, a better place to be, isn't it?
[00:34:46] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:47] Sharon Edmundson: And I, I don't think it's the only way. I think God sometimes uses relationships to help, um, us realize those insecurities and to help work on them. He can use other people as well. Yeah. But I think for me, it was very much. God doing a deep work first, so that I was actually in a better place for a relationship.
## [00:35:07] When You’re Single and Everyone Else Isn’t: Friendship, Church Family & Hope
[00:35:07] Matt Edmundson: Which leads me nicely on to what Ella's put in the comments. Um, any advice on difficulties being single, especially when all your friends are in long-term relationships?
[00:35:17] Sharon Edmundson: Oh yeah. That's hard, isn't it? We're trying to get, um, a talk actually on singleness soon, aren't we?
[00:35:23] Matt Edmundson: Yes, we are.
[00:35:24] Sharon Edmundson: We're having trouble tracking down the person that we want.
[00:35:27] Matt Edmundson: Yes. Had to get postponed. And I won't bore you with the details as to why, but we have got a, a talk coming on it soon. But actually I would, I would almost wanna talk to your friends. The, the friends are in long-term relationships. I think the onus is on them to actually be aware of people who are still single.
Mm-hmm. Because I think my experience is when you get married, your life just accelerates a thousand miles an hour and it's easy for six months to go past. Um, you know, and. Like, oh gosh. You know, you see people at church and think you catch up, um, or you like their comment on Instagram and think you've caught up, but you really haven't.
And I think,
[00:36:04] Mike Harris: yeah.
[00:36:04] Matt Edmundson: Um, I, I, I think that the onus is on us, isn't it? Mm-hmm. To actually go, how can we still involve people who aren't in long-term relationships into the family?
[00:36:14] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:14] Matt Edmundson: And to become part of the family and to do life with us. Um,
[00:36:18] Sharon Edmundson: because I think romantic relationships are not the only satisfying relationships.
Yeah. We are made for different types. Yeah. Um, and singleness is, um, has got a, what's the word? Uh, is seen really positively in the Bible, but at the same time recognize that if you're single and you don't want to be, that can be a really hard place to be in.
[00:36:38] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. It can. It can. And so I don't wanna, I don't wanna sit here and just give twee advice, like trust God.
[00:36:44] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:36:44] Matt Edmundson: Um, 'cause I don't think that's gonna be helpful. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I think, um, I think. There, like you say, the the, when I was preparing the notes for the, the singleness talk, the view of the Bible placed on singleness is above marriage. Yeah. So Paul says, I would rather you be single than married because it's so much better.
Um, Jesus was single, uh, you know, despite what Dan Brown might try and teach, but it's, it's like there are very good role models that we have in scripture about singleness and very good conversations about it that somehow culture, I think, has forgotten. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:37:25] Mike Harris: I, I've, I've heard a couple of talks on singleness that I've found incredibly challenging, really, uh, enlightening and yeah, they, I think a little bit like what you said, Sharon, is that.
They, they talk about the importance of finding intimacy in, in other relationships as well, and in your relationship with God. And you know, obviously I, I don't wanna be glib about that, but, but also relationships in friendship and, and how meaningful and how, what depth of friendship you can achieve with, with those friends who are around you.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it, it, it, it's d it's difficult if you are single and you don't want to be. Mm-hmm. It, it, it is difficult and, um, you know mm-hmm. I don't wanna offer an easy answer.
[00:38:14] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:15] Mike Harris: Um, it can be difficult.
## [00:38:16] Loneliness, Being Truly Known & Commitment Before Intimacy
[00:38:16] Matt Edmundson: Well, it's, it's interesting when you think about this topic of loneliness, right? So, um, somebody once said to me that there's nothing more lonely than being married and lonely.
Right? Yeah. As a, because as a Christian, there's no way out. In, in essence, you, you know, divorce is not a, a good thing necessarily. Um, but the lone loneliness isn't just the absence of people. Loneliness is the absence of being truly known. Right. And so this is, I think what we, what we miss in society at the moment, because you are, you are very isolated and you're not really known.
And we think actually if we're in a relationship, we'll become really known. Um, and I think whilst there's a, there's truth to that, especially in a covenantal relationship, um, I think that can exist in, like you're saying, in other relationships as well. Mm-hmm.
[00:39:13] Mike Harris: One of the other thoughts that I was having while you were doing the talk, Sharon, one of the thoughts that I thought, you know, this is, this is gonna be difficult for culture to sit there and listen to this, is, is the idea of commitment before intimacy.
[00:39:30] Matt Edmundson: Mm.
[00:39:30] Mike Harris: And how. You know how just completely countercultural that is.
[00:39:34] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:39:35] Mike Harris: And how, you know, in this sort whole sort of individualistic society, we are desperate to, to only give of ourselves as much as the other person, or we think the other person needs whilst holding every single card back until we are 3000% sure.
Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, it's, it's, it, it's really difficult, isn't it? And, and the Bible is, you know, as you clearly laid out, um, you know, the relationships that, that God shows to us is one of absolute commitment faced before that intimacy comes. And, um, you know, and just looking at that again today and listening to what you were saying, I was even more convinced by, um.
This message, which is just so crucially important for people to hear, um, in the current culture that we live. Um, yeah.
[00:40:37] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. If I'd say that, if that is something that you really struggle with, can I just sort of make a plea for you not to just completely dismiss it as old fashioned, irrelevant, oppressive, all the rest of it, but actually like, look into it, like, take time to
[00:40:53] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:40:54] Sharon Edmundson: Dig into the Bible a bit and just go, okay, if this is God's word, would, has he potentially got something to say that I've missed that actually is gonna cause flourishing and just Yeah. Be open-minded about it is was my encouragement.
[00:41:13] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
## [00:41:14] Why Sexual Boundaries Feel So Hard (Culture, Shame, and Delayed Gratification)
[00:41:14] Matt Edmundson: One of the questions is, if the Bible's boundaries around sex are designed for our flourishing, why do so many people, including Christians, find them so difficult to follow?
And like you said, Mike, it's, it's, I think they go against every message the culture sends, doesn't it? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, films, music, social media, everything. The message is unanimous, that sex is casual. Um, boundaries are repressive in many ways, and desire should be immediately fulfilled. And I think when you come against, come against when you mm-hmm.
Preach maybe a different idea or a different message, I think it's hard. And also delay delayed gratification
[00:41:56] Mike Harris: mm-hmm.
[00:41:57] Matt Edmundson: Is, I think is one of the hardest things for human beings to Yeah. Right. I cannot, I mean, I appreciate, it's maybe not the best analogy if there's biscuits on the side, I've gotta eat 'em now
[00:42:06] Mike Harris: and all of them.
[00:42:07] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Without a doubt. Right.
[00:42:08] Sharon Edmundson: And he doesn't always realize he's doing it either.
[00:42:10] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:42:11] Sharon Edmundson: I can be like, do you really need that? You've already had this bit of cake in that. And he's like, have I? He doesn't even know it.
[00:42:17] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. No, it's true. And it's interesting. I don't think the church has helped here. A lot actually.
[00:42:24] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:42:24] Matt Edmundson: Um, because often I think the message from church has been shame based.
[00:42:28] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:42:28] Matt Edmundson: So don't do it because it's dirty rather than vision based, which is weight, because you've got this incredible thing which is sacred.
[00:42:36] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:36] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Um, and I think, um, I think these boundaries are hard. Mm-hmm. I think they're, they're not always easy to keep.
[00:42:44] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:44] Matt Edmundson: Um, but the way that I would read scripture at the moment is that is God's best.
[00:42:49] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:50] Matt Edmundson: For marriage and relationship.
[00:42:51] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. I think boundaries in general are what we need. So like with food, um, it's like we can just eat whatever we like in one sense, but the Bible again tells us, it tells us to enjoy our food.
You know, it's there for our enjoyment, but also not to be gluttonous. Mm-hmm. So I think in, in every area of life, there's like, God gives these good gifts, but he puts boundaries there for our benefit because it's like if we do eat too much. You know, like consistently too much. Then we end up with other health issues that are not good for us.
And interestingly, I was, um, I heard about some research it was to do with kids. I can't remember if I said this last week. Um, and it was looking at what happens to kids who are, who grow up without any boundaries, where the parents just let them do whatever and decide when they want to do things, when they don't.
And it's the kids, the, the effect on them is actually really negative because they are, um, they're unable to fit, like. With work, for example, they find it really hard to work because if they're a bit late and someone says, oh, you need to come in on time, they can't handle it. They, it can lead them into meltdown.
And actually the mental health outcomes from no boundaries
[00:44:04] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:44:05] Sharon Edmundson: Are not good. Yeah. So again, we, we don't always like boundaries 'cause we in every area, we just wanna do what we wanna do.
[00:44:11] Mike Harris: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:11] Sharon Edmundson: But boundaries are really good for us.
[00:44:13] Mike Harris: Yeah.
## [00:44:14] Boundaries Need Community: Healthy Support, Not Toxic Shame
[00:44:14] Mike Harris: And I, I, I, you know, I, I know that when I was dating and, and, um, there was, there was, you know, certain boundaries that we wanted to put in place in order to try and, you know, living a way that honor God.
Um, 'cause I, you know, I was, when I started dating my wife, sorry, and I was Christian and me and my wife put boundaries in place to try and, um, you know, live in a way that honored God. It was hard. Mm-hmm. And I think one of, you know, and, and at times we were, we would get it wrong. And I think one of the best ways.
To, um, to be motivated and to keep those boundaries is to do it within community. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think if you are, if you set yourself boundaries and they're just between you and just yourself, they're almost impo well, for me, almost impossible to keep. And I think when, you know, the only reason why me and my wife managed to get to managed to get to marriage in one place, in one piece was because of the community of people that were around us.
The people who were older than us who were married, who could say, you know, come on, keep going. You can do this. Um, and. So I think that's, that's really important.
[00:45:36] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think that's a good point. But I think as well as Matt said, it's about having healthy communities and not toxic communities that are gonna put all the shame and the guilt and the pressure and all that kind of thing.
I think there is a healthy version of that. Like you seem to have found.
[00:45:52] Mike Harris: Yeah,
[00:45:52] Matt Edmundson: yeah, yeah.
[00:45:53] Mike Harris: Yeah. Definitely. And, and also short engagements
[00:45:57] Matt Edmundson: cannot emphasize the beauty of a short engagement enough, more than 12. I mean, I appreciate everyone's different, but um, less than six months is probably not ideal, but more than 12 is engagement's all the responsibility of marriage, but none of the fun.
Right. So, but this is not talk about engagement, but that's just my theory.
## [00:46:14] Dating Pressure, Engagement Timelines & The Courage to Break It Off
[00:46:14] Matt Edmundson: What is interesting actually about this, just going back, I think as we've got older, so I've been a Christian, uh, 30 some years now, right? So I've seen a lot of people date. Um, seeing relationships end, seeing the dating relationships turn into engagements and seeing engagements, uh, get married.
Right. I would venture to say in Christian circles especially because if you date for more than one or two years, um, and you are not engaged, I think there is a pressure on you to get engaged. Right. Yeah. Now I think that pressure is both good and not always helpful Right. Depending on the situation and the circumstance.
[00:46:57] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:46:58] Matt Edmundson: And we have seen over the years a lot of people who have dated and then get married, but should have had the courage to break off the relationship when they were dating.
[00:47:10] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:10] Matt Edmundson: Right. And this is something, um, that I think is probably really important to mention, that once you are dating, it's, that's not the covenant part.
You're deciding whether you can be in covenant with that person and so. We've seen a number of divorces, people being married 10, 20 years. Mm. People then getting divorced.
[00:47:29] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:29] Matt Edmundson: And actually, I think if you go back far enough in their relationship, and I've, you know, I've been involved in, in, in speaking with a bunch of these people, you go back far enough what actually happened was they never had the courage whilst they were dating to call it off.
[00:47:44] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:45] Matt Edmundson: We've done marriage prep with people, um, who are there, who are engaged, and we're like, dude, you guys aren't ready.
[00:47:53] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:53] Matt Edmundson: But by the time they've come to us, the invitations are already sent. And so they, they are gonna get married regardless of what we tell them. And we've seen a couple of those.
Mm-hmm. Guys get divorced, haven't we? And so I think speaking to you, if you are a Christian, that once you are dating, sometimes the bravest thing you can do is to break off that relationship if it's not right. Um. If you are in your early twenties, that can feel heartbreaking, but your 40-year-old self is thanking you and you do.
Right. And this again, comes back to why it's good to have good counsel around us. Mm-hmm. Um, to have good people, to have good community that you mentioned. Mm-hmm.
[00:48:35] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:48:36] Matt Edmundson: Um, but yeah, I, I think it's probably worth just mentioning that fact. Mm-hmm. Just 'cause we've seen I think the fruits of that a lot more recently.
[00:48:44] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. I think that's why we're really keen as well, that people, um, do see dating as the beginning of that covenant process. Like finding out all the stuff you need to find out.
[00:48:55] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:48:55] Sharon Edmundson: Do it then before there is any, like, proper commitment because it's much easier to break it off then if you need to than once you've got engaged.
Mm. It's, it's so much harder to do that once you've got the church booked or wherever it is and the invitation sent out. Um, yeah. So getting wise council before that, definitely I can't emphasize enough.
## [00:49:20] Shared Values Over Shared Interests (and Why Church Matters)
[00:49:20] Matt Edmundson: Um, what do you think then? Yeah, I mean, I know what you think, babe. Uh, one 'cause we're married, and two, 'cause you talked about it.
But, uh, Mike, this idea of shared values over shared interests. When you are attracted to somebody, um, how realistic is it to prioritize shared values over shared interest, do you think?
[00:49:37] Mike Harris: Really well, hard I think, you know, sometimes, obviously it's different for different people, but if you find yourself physically, you know, really physically attracted to someone, you just, you just want to be with them.
And especially if they, if they show that they're attracted to you, you just, you know, if, if, if you are, you know, that's difficult then to, to have a think about, well, are their values the same as mine? Um, I was thinking about it along the idea, well, you know, if I could go back in time and I was single and I was thinking, right, you know, I, I don't wanna be single, I wanna be married.
Um. And I recognize that values are more important than interest. Where would I go? How would I, how would that change the way I approached, I was thinking like, where would I go to look for people mm-hmm. Who have similar values?
[00:50:33] Sharon Edmundson: Good
[00:50:33] Mike Harris: question. Me. Mm-hmm. Um, at, at, at, you know, at the start. Um, you know, because if you know, you know, if you are on a dating app or something like that and you see someone who's really good looking and, and you find out that they really like you, it's, it's then difficult, isn't it to Yeah.
To, to end that because their values aren't the same as yours. Mm-hmm. You know, I, I would say, um, and I dunno if this is related or not, but one thing that, that I can say is a hundred percent true is that when you. It say you end a relationship because you don't feel like they are the best covenant partner for you.
You don't feel like the two of you together will build a relationship that honors God, let's say. Then even when it's really, really hard, if you choose to end that relationship, the Bible says that whatever you give up, Jesus says, whatever you give up for me, I will give you back a hundred times more in this age and in the age to come and know, you know, however difficult it might be.
If you end a relationship that you believe that God is telling you that this isn't the right relationship, then, then God sees that, and, and God is, God will honor that.
[00:51:55] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:51:56] Mike Harris: Um, but yeah. But maybe start with where, where might you go?
[00:52:00] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:52:01] Mike Harris: Where might you go?
[00:52:02] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:52:02] Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:03] Mike Harris: So for someone who has similar values to you mm-hmm.
[00:52:05] Matt Edmundson: And this is why I think church is really good, isn't it? Yeah. Because I, I mean, we met at church. Mm-hmm. I take it you and Deb's met at church.
[00:52:11] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:52:12] Matt Edmundson: Um, and I, again, I'm a, I'm a big proponent of if you are a Christian, you date Christians, right? Yeah. I know that there are Christians who will date non-Christians, um, and have reasons for that.
The way I read scripture and the way I understand relationships at dating, I would probably say I still would maintain that. I think it's better if a Christian dates a Christian, um, because of the shared values thing.
[00:52:41] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:52:42] Matt Edmundson: Right. Because again, you might have shared interest, like you might be in a hiking club, but what happens in 10 years time if your need doesn't work, you can't go hiking anymore.
Right. So you have to have those shared values, I think, to go through the difficult times. And I think the book, you mentioned the questions to
[00:52:57] Sharon Edmundson: 101 questions. Yeah.
[00:52:59] Matt Edmundson: 101 questions
[00:52:59] Sharon Edmundson: to ask before you get engaged.
[00:53:01] Matt Edmundson: I think that's a really interesting book because that talks a lot more about shared values, isn't it?
Mm-hmm. Like what do you do when things get tough? You know, tell me a story about when you didn't get your way and all those kind of things reveal character and reveal values much more than let's go to pottery class together, which is great, but I think it has to go deeper than that. Mm-hmm.
[00:53:22] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.
## [00:53:23] Saying No to Attraction: A Real Story About Values and Faith
[00:53:23] Sharon Edmundson: Can I just pick up on what Mike said as well about if you find someone really attractive?
'cause I think the, the general cultural wisdom would be if you find them attractive and they're attracted to you, just go for it. But we are saying something different here, as in, that's not the most important thing. And actually, it, it is possible to say no to that. Now I've made lots of mistakes with dating.
Um. Gone out with people I knew that weren't good.
[00:53:50] Matt Edmundson: You've done what?
[00:53:50] Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. Anyway, so, so I am definitely not putting myself up as I've had this all sorted and perfect because believe me, that was not the case. But they've definitely
[00:54:01] Matt Edmundson: yeah's kiss a few frogs to find your brains didn't.
[00:54:04] Sharon Edmundson: Okay. Um, but there was, there was a time where there was this guy that I really liked and then he asked me out and I was just like, I really fancy this guy, but he's not a Christian.
And then he actually said the line, which helped me, he was like, I'd really like to go out with you, but I know that you're a Christian and I've got a Christian friend, and he's like, very much like, not inundating. So I was like, oh, I've being cornered here. So I was just very much like, no, I'm, I'm gonna say no to this relationship.
And at the time it was so hard, such a hard thing to do. But like Matt said, I look back now and I'm like, I'm so grateful I did that.
[00:54:40] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:40] Sharon Edmundson: Because I think I could easily have got swept along and. But at the end of the day, we, we had very different value systems. Mm-hmm. And he was a great guy, but it just wasn't right.
Mm-hmm. So it, it is possible to say no even when all your emotions and everything are going, but I really want this person. Yeah. That's my,
[00:55:01] Matt Edmundson: we'll talk about that later.
[00:55:02] Sharon Edmundson: Trying
[00:55:02] Matt Edmundson: his Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna know who that guy is coming around your house. No, no, no.
## [00:55:06] What’s a ‘Situationship’? Defining the Gray Area
[00:55:06] Matt Edmundson: Uh, in one of the comments, what is a situation ship?
Uh, a situation ship is a romantic relationship that has not been defined. This is a term coined by millennials and Gen Zs. Uh, you are more than friends. There might be regular text in dates and even physical intimacy and an emotional connection. But neither person has said, we are in a relationship or put any kind of label on it.
Meaning it sits in this gray area between casual dating and a committed relationship. Um, and actually. Uh, modern psychology now tells you that these relationships are the hardest ones to get over because you don't technically break up because it was never defined. It's just this sort of weird kind of middle ground that you find yourself in.
And so, because there's not that commitment and there's not that willingness to define it because we're just, you know, totally ca 'cause that's the end thing. It causes promise. That's what a situation ship is. That was one of the comments. So, yeah. Yeah. You learn something new every day. Um, right.
## [00:56:08] Wrap-Up: What’s Next, Resources, Live Lounge & Final Encouragements
[00:56:08] Matt Edmundson: Thank you for your questions.
Thank you for your comments. Um, I am very aware of time and we've just scratched the surface. Uh, I feel
[00:56:17] Sharon Edmundson: as always,
[00:56:18] Matt Edmundson: as always, that's unlike us. Um, next week we have Pete Farrington. Um, he's sharing hopefully, uh, Pete sent a talks, uh, message. And I've, I'm, I'm not forgotten about the talk. I'm doing it. I'm doing it.
I'm doing it. Um, so Pete's gonna be with us next week. I will be here hosting with Dan and Aid. We are starting a series on money, so we're working our way through this topic of wholeness. We fi we've, we've been looking at relationships, uh, courtship and dating was one of those. Um, we haven't forgotten about the singleness thing.
We're gonna come back to that hopefully, um, probably after Easter. Um, but next week we're gonna start looking at money. And Pete Farrington's gonna kick off that. And then the week after that it's you.
[00:57:05] Mike Harris: It is
[00:57:06] Matt Edmundson: you're
[00:57:06] Mike Harris: back. Yeah. Theology of work.
[00:57:08] Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah,
[00:57:09] Mike Harris: yeah. Looking forward to it.
[00:57:10] Matt Edmundson: So Pete's talking about purpose and stewardship.
You are talking about work, then I'm talking about what does it mean to give Will's gonna look at what's the god's heart for the poor. And we've got Dave coming back to talk about building a legacy, which I just can't wait to hear that talk. Um, mainly 'cause I put the notes together. I don't know how good it's gonna be.
Um,
[00:57:28] Sharon Edmundson: that's assuming he's sticking to them.
[00:57:30] Matt Edmundson: Well this is Dave. He's never gonna stick to the notes, but let me tell you, I was really blessed by putting the news together and I know Dave's gonna be great. Um, so yeah, so that's what's coming up, uh, next week. So make sure you like and subscribe and all of that good stuff.
If you haven't done so already, check out the Crowd website, Crowd Church. You can sign up to the newsletter and we send you just one email a week, uh, with the notes from, uh, the live stream. So you've got those in your inbox and you can go and do further bible study or, um, reach out to us if you've got questions, uh, if you are not yet part of a church.
Um, but we are gonna go to Live Lounge now. So in what time is it now? It's like. 1959 in the uk. So in about three or four minutes we will open up Live Lounge. Um, Danny, you putting the link in the comments?
[00:58:13] Mike Harris: Yeah. What was the link?
[00:58:16] Matt Edmundson: Take teams. Find it. Go Crowd Church slash meet. MEET. Uh, we will see.
[00:58:26] Mike Harris: We got the go.
[00:58:27] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Make the go's important 'cause it's a subdomain and it's just a redirect. Um, so yeah, go Crowd Church slash meet. Uh, we will see you there. If you'd love to come join us in Live Lounge, we would love to meet you. Uh, but thank you for your questions. Thank you for your comments. Um, it's been a great conversation tonight.
Thank you for doing the talk.
[00:58:46] Sharon Edmundson: You're welcome.
[00:58:47] Matt Edmundson: Enjoyed that. A great conversation. I love the fact we can talk about these things, but yeah. Anything else from you in closing, Mike?
[00:58:54] Mike Harris: Uh, no. Yeah, just really, really powerful talk and yeah, good discussion. Enjoyed it.
[00:59:00] Matt Edmundson: Anything else from you?
[00:59:02] Sharon Edmundson: Oh, I, oh, where do we start?
I think just that, I just encourage people not to dismiss the Bible as an old fashioned book on this subject, but it's got so much to say. It just, I think people are still the same. Yeah. And it, it, it gets people because God's involved with writing, so.
[00:59:20] Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely. And I think I would just say, you know, if you are wanting to get married, um, dating is the very start of that process.
The better you can get that process done, the more likely you are to get a better marriage. It's not an exact science, nor is it guaranteed. Um, and I think, like you said, the Bible's got some real wisdom there. And so, um, uh, I hope that all makes sense. Uh, but yeah, thank you for joining us. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world.
Uh, I'll see you next time. Bye for now.