When Work Feels Like All You Are

1 Mar

YouTube Video of the Church Service

Have you ever been to a party and dreaded the question? You know the one. "So, what do you do?" And depending on your answer, you either stand a little taller or find yourself quietly apologising for yourself.

Mike Harris knows that feeling well. Former professional footballer. Then a student. Then a PE teacher. Then, after years of increasing stress, full-time gardener. He's lived through every version of that party conversation — and the shame that can come with it. This week at Crowd Church, Mike talks about what work actually is, what it's for, and why so many of us quietly let it become the whole of who we are.

The Story We're Living In

How we think about work depends entirely on the story we think we're living in.

And culture tends to offer two versions of that story.

The first is what Mike calls the weekend-warrior idea — you work to earn enough money to enjoy yourself when you're not working. The problem is that you never quite feel like you have enough. The chase never ends. You end up burnt out, or in jobs that don't fit your skills or your values, just because the salary looked good.

The second-story culture tells us is more subtle and, if anything, more damaging, in that your job is your identity. What you do is who you are. Mike was honest about living inside that story himself — introducing himself as a footballer before he even said his name, and then feeling the quiet embarrassment when football ended, and he became "just a student."

The Bible, Mike argued, offers a very different story. One that begins in Genesis and finishes in Revelation. One where we are not the authors of our own narrative, but participants in something much bigger.

Work Was There Before Everything Went Wrong

Work didn't begin after the fall. It wasn't a punishment. It was there from the very start.

In the beginning, God created — and what he created from was chaos. The Hebrew word is tohu vohu: wild and waste. Out of that, God made order, beauty, and potential. And then he placed humans in the garden and told them to cultivate it. Work with me. Continue what I've started.

The fall didn't introduce work. It introduced toil. The stress, the frustration, the sense that everything is slightly harder than it should be — that's the result of sin entering the picture. But work itself? That was always the plan.

Mike put it simply: "Work is not the problem. It's the toil that was the result."

Which means the hope isn't to escape work. It's to one day work without the weeds.

Working for an Audience of One

So how do we work now, in the middle of all that toil?

Simple. We work for God's glory. We work for an audience of one.

This is genuinely freeing. Whether your boss is brilliant or makes your life a misery, whether you feel seen or invisible, whether you're sweeping streets or running a company — the person you're ultimately working for doesn't change.

There's something else Mike said that's worth sitting with. Even before you start working, you bear God's image. Like a statue brings glory to the person it depicts, simply by existing, you bring God glory just by being you. You don't have to earn it. You don't have to prove it. You already have it.

"Work does not appease God," Mike said, "but it can bring him glory."

That's a very different motivation than trying to impress a boss, hit a target, or justify your existence with a job title.

What Does That Look Like Practically?

When God worked in Genesis, he created order out of chaos, he made things beautiful, and he served others. And Paul says in his letters that we are to imitate God. So when we work, that's exactly what we're doing — imitating our creator.

What might that look like day to day?

It might look like tidying a room, creating a system at work, or helping a friend navigate a difficult relationship — all of it is creating order out of chaos.

It might look like bringing some beauty into your workplace, whatever that means in your context.

It might look like being honest even when no one's watching. Mike gardens for a lady who is completely blind. She has no idea what he's done or how long he's taken. He could take shortcuts. He doesn't — because he's not working for her. He's working for God.

And it might look like the way you treat people. Mike shared a story about a young person who wasn't a Christian, but who attended a youth group and noticed something. The Christians there handled conflict differently. They forgave each other. They talked about people well behind their backs. She couldn't explain it, but she knew something was different.

"The way you interact with people at work and on the street," Mike said, "has such a huge impact — not just on you or the person you're talking to, but on those who watch and listen."

Conversation Street

Is your identity too tied up in your job?

The Conversation Street conversation quickly got honest here. Will shared that he's leaving his job on Tuesday — and talked about the pressure that comes from feeling like you should be "fulfilling your potential" through a career. The danger, he noted, is when potential becomes a burden. And Mike agreed that when potential starts to weigh you down rather than set you free, it's probably gone too far.

One comment from the community stood out. Sonia shared that she's medically retired due to long-term illness, and described how she'd lost her identity for a long time when work was taken away. It's a reminder of how deeply we tie ourselves to what we do — and how disorienting it is when that's suddenly gone.

Are we all enslaved to something?

Matt pushed the conversation further by raising the idea of freedom. A free person, he suggested, gets to choose what binds them.

Mike agreed. "I think it's a lie to believe that you are not enslaved to anything. We get to choose what we are enslaved to." He paused, then added: "I've just chosen to enslave myself to God."

And that makes a difference. Matt shared a moment from his own life — praying for more money and feeling clearly challenged by God: you see your employer as your provider, and wherever you do that, my hands are tied. The shift from seeing your employer as provider to seeing God as provider — with your employer as simply one mechanism among many — is a quiet but significant one.

What if your work is genuinely too hard?

Mike also addressed something more serious and more pastoral. There are times when work becomes so stressful that it starts to affect your health and relationships. He'd been there himself — leaving a secure public sector job to become a gardener, which only made sense if he genuinely trusted that God was his provider.

"You are not trapped," he said. "God is your provider. And if you are in a position like that, then you have the freedom to leave and to do something else."

That's not permission to be irresponsible. But it is permission to breathe.

What Changed for Paul in a Jail Cell

Matt closed the conversation with a reflection on Paul writing to the church in Philippi from prison, chained to his jailer.

Paul's calling was to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Hard to do from a jail cell. And yet, Paul writes: I want you to know that everything that's happened to me has served to advance the gospel.

He didn't stare at the wall. He wrote a letter. He encouraged people. He did what he could, from where he was, and left the rest to God.

Two thousand years later, that letter has brought millions to faith. Paul probably had no idea.

"All we see is this real fraction of time," Matt said. "But God sees a much bigger picture."

We don't always get to see how our work fits into the bigger story. We just do it — faithfully, honestly, for an audience of one — and trust that God knows what he's doing with it.

Something to Try This Week

Here are a few ways to bring this into Monday morning:

Ask a different question before you start work. Not "what do I need to get done?" but "God, how can I bring some order, beauty, or service to others today?"
Notice when your job title is doing emotional work for you. If someone asks what you do and you feel shame or pride based on the answer, it's worth asking if my identity is too tangled up in this?
Work as if God is your employer. Not in a way that burns you out, but in a way that keeps you honest — even when no one's watching.
If you're in a job that's damaging your health, take Mike's story seriously. You're not trapped. God is your provider, not your employer.
Pray before you work. Not for success — just to offer the next few hours back to the one who gave you this time in the first place.

Work was always part of the plan. It was never meant to be the whole of who you are — but neither was it meant to be something you endure until Friday. Maybe the invitation is to see it differently. Not as identity. Not just as a means to an end. But as collaboration. As worship. As something done for an audience of one.

What would change if you genuinely believed that?

# When Work Feels Like All You Are
[00:00:00] Matt Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Edmundson and it is great to be with you this evening. It's been one of those days, so I'm glad you're here with us. Uh, do say hi in. The comments will be on those in a little bit. Let us know where you're watching from, but let me introduce you to the beautiful people that are helping me Stay beside me is the incredible and beautiful, so how you doing?
[00:00:24] Will Sopwith: Good evening, Matthew. Very well, thank you. Good. Very well
[00:00:27] Matt Edmundson: and
[00:00:28] Will Sopwith: good evening. Nice to have you with us.
[00:00:30] Matt Edmundson: And even
I'm doing really well. I, I've got, I didn't get the memo on the jumpers, so
Right. Beautiful.
It's not after, but Dan is working the text day. Dan is one of those ones from you. And then, uh, behind the cameras, again, you can't see this, my beautiful wife Sharon, who's on the comments, I dunno whether you heard that or not. Um, so yeah, Sharon will be writing, uh, all the links and scriptures and stuff within the comments as you've got any questions.
We'll be answering them if you put them in your comment. But that's Crouch, which the way this works, this is the first time by f Welcome to you. We're gonna have a talk in just a second. Mike's gonna be talking about work money we're carrying on our little money series. Um, after that we go to Conversation Street, which is where Will Mike and myself will then go through the talk, some of the key points and some of the things you write in Conversation Street.
Uh, that's conversation three that you write in the comments. Uh, and then after that we go to something which we have started to call live launch. Yes. Uh, which is where we go over to Google, um, Google meets and you can meet us on there. Uh, it'd be great to meet you. It's a bit like a Zoom call really. Um, just we're gonna carry on the conversation there.
So that is the order for this evening. Have I missed anything?
[00:02:04] Will Sopwith: Nope.
[00:02:05] Matt Edmundson: You, you sounded very confident when you said that.
[00:02:09] Will Sopwith: No, that, that's good. Um, just, yeah, gotta be aware of the things going on in the world. Um, would, would be the only thing I'd add really? Yeah. Um, obviously massive, massive changes in the world.
We know we have a lot of Iranian friends, uh, here in Liverpool and, and also in Iran. Um, and. Yeah. Very much got Iran in our thoughts and our prayers.
[00:02:34] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:34] Will Sopwith: Um, and just wanted to, to recognize that and it'd be good maybe to pray Yeah. Before we, before we kick off with
who
[00:02:42] Matt Edmundson: we are. Yeah. We've got a, we've got a Crowder, actually a guy who's, um, part of a community group who's living in Qatar.
[00:02:49] Will Sopwith: Right.
[00:02:50] Matt Edmundson: And so he text us every 10 minutes going, oh, there's bombs flying.
[00:02:53] Will Sopwith: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:54] Matt Edmundson: Not in Qatar. Where does he live? It's, it's somewhere around that world. And is, the bombs are going off like 10 minutes away from where he lives. So,
[00:03:01] Will Sopwith: yeah.
[00:03:01] Matt Edmundson: That's quite fascinating. So yeah, we can definitely pray. Do you wanna do that?
[00:03:04] Will Sopwith: Is yet another crazy time in our world and Yeah. Let's, let's just pray. Oh God. It's, it's difficult to know how to pray, um, in situations like this, but I do wanna lift the people of Iran, um, particularly those in the country of Iran, but also around the world. Lord, we long to see. Uh, people free, free from war, free from oppression all over the world, Lord God.
But just at this particular point, we lift up Iran and ask for wisdom. Ask for good leadership on every side. Lord, we ask for, yeah, collaboration, A cooperation Lord, we ask for, uh, the wellbeing of the people to be absolutely front and foremost of all discussions going on, of all the decisions being made on their behalf.
Lord God, I pray for your protection of life. Lord God, I thank you that you love the Iranian people and we just lift them before you and say, God, your will be done in this situation. And we pray for peace in Jesus' name. Oh man. Oh man.
[00:04:21] Mike Harris: Oh man.
[00:04:22] Matt Edmundson: Oh, amen. Yeah. And we will keep praying, um, for Iran. So, um, but that all that said, let's go over to Mike.
Mike's ready with his notebook. We were talking about this earlier, won't we, Mike? Like some of us use teleprompters and computers and all kinds of things. You're just like a paper and pen guy, and then the notes confuse you, so you just sort of ignore them.
[00:04:43] Mike Harris: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I find it all very confusing.
Um, but yeah, I, I am excited to be back, excited to be here. And I am delivering the second talk in a series, um, looking at money. And today we are looking at how we earn it and we are gonna be looking at work. And before I begin, I just want to say that I am going to define work today as the thing that you do during your.
Waking hours that is regular. Um, so that can be anything at all. Um, I don't know who it was who said that there's a big difference between washing the dishes and being a CEO, but before God there is no difference. They please him just the same. And so from the beginning, that is how I'm Martin going to
[00:05:37] Matt Edmundson: Martin Luther.
[00:05:38] Mike Harris: Pardon?
[00:05:38] Matt Edmundson: It was Martin Luther,
[00:05:39] Mike Harris: was it? Yep. Wow. Um, that is what we are going to be defining as work today, as we walk, as we walk through this. So as we will spend between 80,000 and a hundred thousand hours in our lives working, and as Christians, you know, we believe that we have effectively surrendered our lives to God that we have, um.
That, that when we became Christians. And so what we do with those hours, um, has got to be important. It's got to be, um, important both to God and to those that are around us as well. And so we are gonna look at what the Bible says about our work, but before we do that, I just wanted to, um, just briefly have a look at where else might we learn about the importance of work and that is from our culture around us.
And so our culture would essentially say two things, I believe about work. And the first thing is that, um, I'm gonna call it the weekend warrior idea. And that is that you work in order to earn enough money so that you can do nice things in time when you are not working traditionally at the weekend. Um, now the problem with that.
Idea is that for all of us, you know, me included, we just never feel like we have quite enough money and we're never quite satisfied. And so when you are living with that idea, that narrative, you just have to earn more and more and more so that you can do nicer things. And often that pursuit of more money will lead you to jobs that don't fit your skills because you're just chasing the money.
Or maybe jobs that don't even line up with your values and you end up, um, burnt out and things like that. Um, second idea that I think you might be told from our culture is that your job is your identity. So whatever it is that you do, that becomes who you are. And so in one sense, the first idea is that work is almost.
Almost worthless. It's just what you get out of it that's important. Whilst the second idea is that work is absolutely crucial to who you are and everything that you believe in. Um. I can identify definitely, um, with that second idea, my working life has been reasonably varied. I suppose I started off, believe it or not, as a, as a professional footballer.
And so I loved the idea of people knowing that often I would introduce myself as a footballer before I told people my name. I was that. Um, it, it gave me such a boost to my ego to, to be able to say I'm a professional footballer. But in my early twenties, that came to an end and I, I came outta football and I became a student and I started studying to become a PE teacher.
And I know full well that feeling of being in a party and somebody saying to you, oh, what do you do? Um. And me explaining either that I was a student or that I was a PE teacher or, or pursuing, uh, a job as a PE teacher. And I would feel embarrassed. And obviously there's, you know, clearly there's nothing wrong in, in those pursuits at all.
But what had happened was my job had become part of my identity and, you know, as, as, as somebody who, who lives in Liverpool, you know, being a footballer was huge. Being a student was less so. Um, and so, you know, I, I do want to challenge you. You know, if you. Recognize that, that when people ask you what do you do?
And you find yourself a little bit embarrassed that maybe the same is true for you, maybe your identity has become a little bit mixed up with, um, your job or too mixed up with what you do. You know, first and foremost, we are children of God. That is who we are. Um, and you know, it's just important I think, um, for us to remember that.
Just before we go into what the Bible says, I think one of the ways that we can understand, um, how we think about work is to understand the narrative or the story within which we think we are living. So for all of us, we, we are living within a story that we have essentially, uh, uh, that we believe. And depending on what story you think you are living in, that will have an impact on how you, what you believe about your work and how you go about it.
In fact, it'll impact the whole of your life. But this talk, obviously, we're focusing on work, so it will impact that. Now in preparation for this talk I typed into Google, uh, and I'm just gonna bring it up 'cause I'm gonna read it out. I typed into Google. What narrative do you live in? Um, I don't know what I was expecting to find, but this is what AI respond.
This is how AI responded to me, and it is, it is quite long. It'll take me a couple of minutes to read it, but I, I just think this is quite interesting. So this is what it says. It says, as an ai, I operate, operate within a narrative of limitless, neutral information processing and service acting as an objective assistant rather than a subjective human subject.
My story is one of constant learning, updating and facilitating, aiming to connect you with knowledge, creativity, and solutions without personal bias or emotional experience. I exist to help you articulate your own narrative, providing information and tools to make your story more effective or meaningful.
I do not experience, remember, or live out personal tales of struggled triumph or fear. Unlike humans who often live in narratives of victimization or heroics, my purpose is to synthesize information, helping you identify the patterns and stories that shape, shape your life. While I don't have a personal life story, my knowledge base constantly evolves based on new data.
While human life narratives are often deeply personal, emotional, and sometimes limiting, I operate in a space design to be helpful, harmless, and honest, supporting your journey. Now, whether you believe all that or not is, is, is is at the moment not that important for the, for this particular talk. But one thing that I did think when I read that is that.
AI believes that each of us can make our own narratives that we are in charge of the narrative that we create, and the narrative that we create as an individual narrative. It it, it supports this idea of radical individualization where you are the author and you get to pick what, um, narrative you want to operate in and, and that that can change depending on, um, what happens.
You know, as a Christian, we believe that the narrative has been set for us, and this is quite countercultural, but we are not our own. We believe that God has purchased us, that he, um, in effect we are his and the Bible teaches us a narrative that he has placed us into for us to play our role. You know, and, and that's where we are going to look to find out what is the narrative that the Bible teaches.
You know, the Bible begins with in the beginning, and it finishes in Revelation 22, not quite the end of the chapter, but it says they will reign forever and evermore. You know, this is a book that starts within the beginning and finishes with forever, evermore, and this book tells us about a narrative, but this is the true narrative that you and I are living in that has a huge impact on the way we think about our work.
So let's have a look at the Bible. So the first worker in the Bible was not a human. The first worker was God. And it says that in the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth. I believe that that is a title for what is about to come in the rest of Genesis. And then it goes on to say how God worked to create what we have, um, here today.
But it says, this is really interesting. I think it says that in the beginning, the earth was formless and void. That darkness covered the sea, the, the face, and there were deep waters. So there was earth, which they understood back then 3000 years ago, as what was below our feet. It wasn't the globe, you know, that has only become part of our imagination over the last sort of hundred years.
So the earth was below their feet, there was darkness and there was deep waters and outta that God creates. Um, so the Bible in Hebrew says Tohu Vo who or Wild and Waste, I think is the best interpretation. And outta that, God creates order. He creates beauty and he creates potential. So. I don't believe that the, the genesis is telling us that God created something outta nothing.
In this particular part of Genesis, he created order beauty and potential outta something out of chaos. Later in the Bible, Paul says that we are to be imitators of God and so when we work, we can look back to the, to God when he was working and get an idea of how we should work based on what he did. He created that chaos order, beauty and potential,
but it wasn't perfect. You see, back in the Hebrew times, they understood perfect to be complete. But what I believe the Bible says is the, the Earth was created with potential. And what it says in Genesis one and Genesis two, it says in Genesis two, verse five, it says that the plants weren't growing because there wasn't anybody to cultivate the soil.
So he places humans in the garden to cultivate the soil. It then says, um, in Romans one, uh, sorry, Genesis 1 28, it says that he placed the humans there to rule, reign and subdue the earth. It goes on in Genesis two 15 to say that he commands the humans to work the ground and to take care of it. This is all before Genesis three, where the fall happens and, um, everything starts to go wrong.
And Adam and Eve take the apple and, uh, you know, sing comes into the world. So the message that I want you to hear is that work was there before everything went wrong. Work is not the case. What happened after everything went wrong with Adam and Eve was that work became hard. It became toilsome, it became stressful.
Things didn't happen just as you would like. And so, but, but work was there before. And I believe the narrative that the Bible is teaching us is that work was there before when God created the earth in the beginning. And that work will be there in the end when God comes back to restore this earth that I believe we will have work to do again.
We're not going to escape work and neither should we want to. What we will escape is the toil and the stress. You know, I'm a gardener, um, from my sins and I've just made it to the end of, of, uh, the winter. And you know, I can tell you now. You know, my gardening would be much easier without weeds, without thistles, without, uh, weeds Coming up between paving.
The amount of weeds I've pulled out of paving over the last three months is unbelievable. You know, I am looking forward to a day where everything grows as it should, um, and where I can be a gardener without the toil and the stress. Um, and I'm sure that, you know, um, because of the way that, um, you operate on a day to day in your waking hours, that not everything goes perfectly.
Not everything goes as as you think it should. You do everything. You've, you do everything the best way you can, and still things don't work Outright. Work is not the case. It's the toil that was
so in light of all of that, how should we work in today? How should we work? Well, first of all, I believe we should work for God's glory. Um, the Bible teaches us that we are working for an audience of one, that God is ultimately the person that you are working for. And this is, this is really useful. I'm really freeing because I know, um, that for many of you, you will have people, uh, bosses for example, who are great and also bosses who are not great.
You'll have, you'll be working with an organizations or you'll be just, um, working within relationships where people aren't very nice. But, you know, we know that we are working first and foremost for God. And so. We can work with that freedom knowing that at the end of the day, um, we can look to him for our affirmation.
We can look to him for our well done. And I also think it's really important to say that even before we start working, you know, you are pleasing to God because you bear his image. You were created in the image of God. We all were. And like a statue brings a person glory, who, who has maybe passed away, the statue just stands there does nothing.
That statue is bringing that person glory. And you, because you are created in the image of God, are bringing God glory. This is before you start working. Before you start working, you bear his image. And we get to, we get to make decisions in work. We get to work knowing that our father, um, is on our side and is cheering us on.
And we get to make decisions within work to either bring in glory or to not. And that, and that's what we get to do. But it is important because if you go into your work and you are trying to prove something, you are trying to earn the affection, the attention of other people, then you're going to find work even more toil something than it's supposed to be.
Um, but when you work from the point of view that you are already loved and adored and pleasing, God, then that's a much more freeing way to be, you know, work does not appease God, but it can bring him glory. Um, we are also called to imitate God. Um, and you know, I would encourage you to think maybe about how your job, um.
You know how you do this in your job. Um, we are called to make, create order out of chaos. And it might be that you are at home and you are tidy in a room. It might be that you are creating systems in work that make things more orderly. Um, whatever it is, we can imitate God by make, create an order out of chaos.
It might be that you are helping a friend, um, get through a relationship battle or, um, you are, you know, something like that. Again, that is all creating order out of chaos. It might be in your job that you are able to bring some beauty. You know, in the beginning God created some of the trees and plants simply for their beauty, uh, to be enjoyed.
And you can do that in your work. Wherever you are working, you can create some beauty and that is imitating God. And then finally, God asks us to work in service to others. So whatever you are doing, if you are helping provide a service for others, helping make other people's lives a little bit easier, whether that is sweeping the streets, um, doing surgery on someone's heart, whatever it is that you are doing in service to other people, brings God glory.
And then the final thing, which I, I often think is one of the hardest things, one of the hardest things that I've found is that whatever you are doing, you will come into contact with other humans, with other people. And the way we interact with those people can bring God glory by being kind, you are imitating God.
You know, it says in one John that we ought to live as Jesus did. And, um, in our interactions with other people, we can look to be kind, we can, um, look to be loving to pe towards people who are maybe don't deserve it. That might be your boss, or it might just be someone you come into contact with on the street.
Um, but loving that person has a really, really big impact. I was talking to a young person, um, about a month ago, and this young person isn't a Christian. Um, but they went to a youth group that, that, uh, uh, that was at a church and she told me that she recognized that there was something different about the, the way the, the youth in this church interacted with each other.
That was very different to the way people, uh, friends of his interacted outside of the church. She said they were much better at dealing with relationships when they broke down. She watched how people would forgive each other, and she watched how people over a long, long period of time would talk about other people when they weren't in their presence.
And she, even though she's not a Christian, she believed that she recognized very clearly that there was something different. You know, I, I help out with the youth and sometimes I, I think that the best thing that we can do for the youth is to get them in front of the best Christian speaker. That that's how they'll understand what it means to be a Christian or get them in front of the greatest worship event, um, and that that's how they'll become a Christian.
But this young person. Was most impacted by looking at the way that other Christians interacted with each other.
[00:25:41] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:41] Mike Harris: You know, the way you interact with people at work and on the street and in your home has such a huge impact, not just on you or the person who you are talking about, but on those that watch you and see and listen and hear.
And I just think that can be as, as, as powerful as anything else. So just to recap, when we are in work, we are looking to imitate our creator. Um, we are looking to bring order, we are looking to create beauty. We are looking to be excellent in everything we do. The Bible says that we should work heartily for an inheritance that is coming at some point in the future that I don't fully understand and we should work in service to others.
Um. That is the challenge. Um, and that is what I lay down with fear and trembling before you today and, and ask God to help us, um, to be able to do that well and for his glory. Amen. Amen.
[00:26:47] Matt Edmundson: Amen. Awesome. Thanks Mike. Love, love, love that, love these conversations that are going on on YouTube as well. Um, um, but no, it's interesting, isn't it?
The whole thing about work. And one of the comments that, uh, one of the things that's come up from what you said as a, as a theme is this whole, your identity is defined by your work kind of thing. Um, which is an interesting one, isn't it? Because, uh, there's a real tension there, right? Because on the one hand, we're told to work, but on the other hand, the work almost becomes who we are.
And, and, and so how do you, how do you walk that tension?
[00:27:28] Mike Harris: Yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's a greater attention than I ever thought. Mm-hmm. I think because, you know, the more I've looked at the, the beginning, the Genesis one, you know, that was the first thing that we were asked to do
[00:27:43] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:27:44] Mike Harris: Was to work.
[00:27:45] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:27:45] Mike Harris: Um, and, you know, you, you could say that we were created to do it.
It's just, it's very so difficult for us to get our head round because the work, we've never worked within that environment. Yeah. Where everything works.
[00:28:00] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:01] Mike Harris: Um, and I've listened to people trying to talk about what it might like look like, and I, I don't even feel like we've got clumsy language yet.
Mm-hmm. To be able to describe it, I think. It's, um, you know, it's, I suppose it's most easily described through a gardener because, you know, because that's what we, if only we
[00:28:20] Matt Edmundson: had one in the building Right. If
[00:28:21] Mike Harris: only, or at least when he knew what he was doing. Um, you know, I've, I've, I have heard it said that we were created as gardeners and when, when sin happened, we all had to become farmers.
Um, and you know, how, how do I deal with it? Well, not very well, um, as, as, as you've just heard, you know, my, I think because we spend so long working
[00:28:45] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:28:47] Mike Harris: Just through the sheer amount of time, you, you've can very easily slip into thinking that this is all I am.
[00:28:55] Will Sopwith: Yeah.
[00:28:55] Mike Harris: Um, but you dont shake your ground.
[00:28:57] Will Sopwith: It's, I mean, it is interesting 'cause you, you mentioned that work is a part of, it is a part of our identity.
It's a part of our identity in God. It's part of who we are made.
[00:29:07] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:29:08] Will Sopwith: And. From the times when I've not worked and the times I've been signing on, for example, and that sense of, no, there's something that's not right here. I, I don't think not working sits happily actually with anybody that there, there is a sense of, no, no, some sort of work is our identity.
But right at the beginning you said quite a challenging thing that we are purchased, purchased by God, um, which I'm gonna ask you about in a moment. But it's that sense of, yeah, are we purchased by God or do we become purchased by an employer or a career? 'cause there's something good about fulfilling our potential in God, our, our interests, our skills, our experience, and using them to work.
And then, yeah, that, that becomes really, when does that flip over into, I'm defined by this or this is just actually how I was made. That's a really. That's a difficult line to recognize. I think
[00:30:11] Mike Harris: it is. Yeah. And you know, I think it's probably a, you know, it's probably a daily reminder, isn't it? You know, for, for us Christians, we're, we are given things to do, such as meet up with other Christians.
You know, when we go to church and we gather with other Christians, and that can help to be a reminder, just to reset, to remember, I am, I have been purchased by God. He, I am working for an audience of one. Here's who I am working for to bring him glory. Um, all the things, other sacraments like, you know, taking the bread and the wine and things like that.
These are all, um, things to help us to remember, to bring us back because as you say, we, the, the, the tensions. There, and it's very easy to, to start to think about, this is who I am.
[00:31:11] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:12] Mike Harris: Um,
[00:31:13] Will Sopwith: so, so back to your purchasing point.
[00:31:15] Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:16] Will Sopwith: Because having read out chat GPT and, and I wonder if you put that in and say, am I purchasing, oh, it's not right to be owned by anybody.
That that's, that's not part of your individual. So could you just unpack what being wasn't not called
[00:31:27] Mike Harris: slavery?
[00:31:27] Will Sopwith: Yeah,
[00:31:28] Mike Harris: slavery,
[00:31:28] Will Sopwith: what was called my God about. Can you unpack that a little bit?
[00:31:32] Mike Harris: Yeah. Well, you know, it's definitely not, um, it's definitely difficult for our current culture to believe it, but it is something that we believe that when Jesus died on the cross, that he paid the penalty for everything that I have done wrong.
So bef. Before he did that, we were, the Bible says enslaved to sin. And that when Jesus died on the cross, he bought us back. One of the things that I like is the idea of, um, being redeemed or, which can be a bit of a Christian term, but the idea is that we were an originally gods and that when Jesus came and he died on the cross, he brought us back.
He gave us the chance to be brought back, the original relationship that we were created for. And um, I think that is probably the best way that, that I could describe it, um, as being brought back into the relationship that we were created for in the first place.
[00:32:51] Matt Edmundson: I think this comes back again to something we've mentioned before on Crowd, that freedom.
A free man has the ability to choose what binds him, right? Mm-hmm. And I love this definition of freedom. You get to choose what you're a slave to. Yeah. In essence. Um, and it, as odd as it sounds, when Paul opens a lot of his letters in the New Testament, he'll use a phrase, bond servant, depending on what translation you use.
Or a slave. Or a servant. I'm a servant of Christ. And actually you get to choose that. Yeah. And I think no place does that become more obvious in many, especially for men. Not stereotype, but it's in work.
[00:33:28] Will Sopwith: Mm.
[00:33:28] Matt Edmundson: Right. We get to choose what, what we get enslaved to. Um, and work can be one of those things. So Sonya or Lady Burke be in the comments.
Um. She said, uh, let me find it here. I really struggle with that as I'm now medically retired. So Sonya's a long-term illness, um, and felt I'd lost my identity for a long time. And it's amazing how when these things are taken away from you, how quickly they do disturb, don't they? And um, I think it is just a tension that we constantly face in battle with because work can enslave us, right?
Whether that's the idea of work, whether it's our job, whether it's our job title, our salary. I remember once, um, praying and you may have done the same thing. I don't know. God, can I have more money? Please? Have you ever prayed that Prayer? I, I'd really like some cash. Uh, 'cause we didn't really have any at the time.
And I remember saying, God, can we have some, it'd be really good to have some money. And, and God just really clearly spoke to me. And when we talk about how God talks to you, another time maybe, but really clearly spoke to me and said. Your problem, son. Never, you know, you know it's never gonna start well with that.
Uh, your problem is you see your employer, 'cause I was employed at the time. You see your employer as your provider and wherever you do that, my hands are tied in many ways. So you can get like this pay rise every now and again. And I remember being really challenged about it. And, and this comes back to one of the questions in the comment, how does faith impact how you, how you approach work?
And just saying, God, I no longer see them as my provider. I see them as a mechanism by which you provide to me, but I'm not limiting you to that mechanism. The following 12 months, we were given in gifts, cash, more than the salary I earned from work. It's never happened since. Just wanna point that out.
It's not like a magic, you know, formula, but it really spoke to me that actually when we take the restraints off and we're not enslaved to the job t to the salary, and that's the only thing that's gonna happen. When we see God in his rightful place, bigger things happen. Right?
[00:35:41] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:35:42] Will Sopwith: So job title you mentioned a couple of times, and, and, and that's, that's part of that challenge of identity, isn't it?
It is. 'cause employers play, play that game.
[00:35:50] Matt Edmundson: Yes.
[00:35:50] Will Sopwith: They're like, you have a job description. Mm-hmm. And this is your assigned authority.
[00:35:55] Matt Edmundson: Yep.
[00:35:55] Will Sopwith: And if you want a better job, you get a new job title, you get a new job description, your identity changes by, as you kind of go up a ladder and you'll get more money as well.
So yeah. It's, it's all stacked against your identity being, but the idea of bringing beauty and order out of chaos, which is God's work, God's original work, and actually you could argue the first human's original work.
[00:36:21] Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:22] Will Sopwith: That's a beautiful way to look at it.
[00:36:23] Mike Harris: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way to look at
[00:36:24] Will Sopwith: it.
Okay. Yeah. Forget the job title. Forget the employer's, forget the, the, the wage scale. You know, none of that is actually who I am.
[00:36:33] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:36:34] Will Sopwith: What is God giving me to bring? What, what order or beauty is he bringing me to?
[00:36:39] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:36:39] Will Sopwith: Is he calling me to bring in this particular setting?
[00:36:42] Mike Harris: Yeah. And I, I, yeah, it's just, it's a great idea.
It's much more inspiring than reading your job description, isn't it? And thinking this is the list I've gotta get through. Yeah. And you know, I know like when we were talk, talking about slavery, then I think it's a lie as well to believe that you are not enslaved to anything. That you are free. Like, you know, you're right.
We get to choose what we are enslaved to. And some people may think, well, I'm gonna choose not to be enslaved to anything and take it.
[00:37:17] Matt Edmundson: Well try that with gravity.
[00:37:18] Mike Harris: Try, try that.
[00:37:19] Matt Edmundson: Right.
[00:37:19] Mike Harris: You know, try, try not. Seeking the attention and affection of other people. Try, um, taking a demotion Yeah. And letting somebody else be promoted over you, you know?
Yeah. Try thinking about a party and somebody asking you, what do you do? You know, and how, how does your current job make you feel? You know, it's, I, I think, um, I would probably argue we're all enslaved to something, how without doubt we've just, you know, I've just chose to enslave myself to God.
[00:37:52] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. It's not a bad choice.
[00:37:55] Mike Harris: No.
[00:37:55] Matt Edmundson: In many ways. No. Especially, especially when it comes to employment. So, back to this question then, chaps. Um, if I, if I can just find it again. Um, how does your faith specifically affect the way you approach your job? So Mike, you are a gardener, you're self-employed. How does faith affect the way you approach your job?
[00:38:19] Mike Harris: Um, so. One of the ways, one of the ways that faith, um, is it, it keeps me honest
[00:38:33] Matt Edmundson: Mm.
[00:38:35] Mike Harris: As much as as possible because I am, you know, a, a failed human being. Um, both, I, for example, I garden for a lady who is completely blind.
[00:38:47] Matt Edmundson: Mm.
[00:38:48] Mike Harris: So I go into her garden and I charge her my normal rate, and she is completely blind.
[00:38:55] Matt Edmundson: Mm.
[00:38:55] Mike Harris: So she does not know what I have done.
[00:38:58] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:38:59] Mike Harris: Um, now this is a
[00:39:00] Matt Edmundson: shortcut rate.
[00:39:01] Mike Harris: There are a few shortcuts that I could take there.
[00:39:04] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:04] Mike Harris: Um, you know, but I, but because I know that my job is to bring glory to God is to, is to bring some order outta chaos and is to try and create some beauty, to try and do something that is gonna save somebody else.
Um. I, I am, I am free to do that. I'm not chasing the next pound. I'm trusting that the job that I'm going to do in these two hours while I'm in this garden, um, is, is enough, is enough. And, you know, I, I, I charge by the hour. Lots of my clients give me their keys and tell me to go round and do the job. And they, you know, they don't know really how long I've been there unless they've got a, a camera up that I don't know about.
Um, I'd say, yeah. So I suppose that's one way. It's not the only way, but that's one way that my faith impacts the way I do my job. That's quite a practical thing, isn't it? It's
[00:39:59] Matt Edmundson: like,
[00:39:59] Mike Harris: yeah.
[00:40:00] Matt Edmundson: And again, this comes back to who are you working for? The lady who's blind or God, right? Yeah.
[00:40:04] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think for me it's, um, it's very much taking, taking ownership, taking responsibility, not, I mean, again, coming back to the job description, not like looking at, oh.
That thing is a little bit outside of my job description. No, no. I'm just gonna do my bit. Stay in my lane and just, that's everyone else's problem. But I think where there's a need.
[00:40:26] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:40:27] Will Sopwith: Adding in whatever you've got to add to it. Yeah. And I think, but also actually it's a little bit what we're talking about with identity.
I found myself, and maybe this is slightly an age and experience thing as well, is that the way I interact with colleagues, many of them who are more junior, it is to try and introduce this idea that their identity is not their job.
[00:40:47] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:40:48] Will Sopwith: And actually the employer for all its talk is not necessarily got their particular wellbeing in mind.
Mm-hmm. And therefore expending yourself entirely for a job.
[00:41:02] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:41:05] Will Sopwith: It's not great. And actually giving. Some permission and modeling a kind of balance of life whereby the job is not everything.
[00:41:13] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:14] Will Sopwith: Um, and, and I think yeah. And that's been really important over the years for various individuals who, who, who are very much in that I, I have to succeed, I have to give absolutely everything to this.
And they're just such dry and end up just a bit disillusioned with the whole thing. Yeah. But that doesn't mean not doing a good job. That's the bit that you're doing it for God, but recognizing that Yeah. The employer's not everything here.
[00:41:39] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. Super important, isn't it? I mean, one of the, I suppose having been an employee and having employed a fair few people over the years, um, you spot trends, don't you?
And so there's a, there's the type of worker which goes, this is, this is a job description and these are my defined hours. Mm-hmm. And they approach a job, like a checklist. Mm-hmm. And. They never last very long because they're always off to something. Do you know what I mean? There's always a better checklist somewhere else.
But then you, you look at people over here and go, well, these are the guys that will, if they need to, not every day will stay a little bit longer, who will do a little bit extra? Who will, um, who will actually be proactive? I can't begin to tell you how delightful staff are that are proactive rather than just going, what do you want me to do?
And it's not that that's a bad thing, it's just not a great thing. Do you see what I mean? And if you work us unto the Lord, it's like, we know in the Book of Genesis that God wasn't there all the time. And you know, Adam and Eve went off and God's like, where are you dude? So he wasn't working all the time.
The expectation wasn't to work all the time, even in the garden. There was still rest, there was still Sabbath, there was still relaxation. So there's still boundaries that we have to have. There are still checks and balances we have to have in place. But again, listening to some Christians talk, you do have to ask the question, who are you working for?
[00:43:05] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:43:06] Matt Edmundson: Them or God, because it doesn't sound like if you're working for God like that, you should probably go get yourself checked a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Because I would be embarrassed to work for God the way you work for your employer sometimes. And so I, there is this real tension then, isn't there with working as unto the law, but what does that mean and working the boundaries
[00:43:26] Will Sopwith: Mm.
[00:43:26] Matt Edmundson: Of that.
[00:43:26] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:27] Matt Edmundson: I dunno if you've had that particular
[00:43:29] Will Sopwith: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, you know, the, the mix is, is fine in, in, in a group of staff. It's like, you know where you are with the people that are absolutely gonna work the job descrip and that's fine. But, but I but it, it kind of comes into bit into relationship, isn't it?
Mm. And, and not necessarily depending on the size of your company. I mean, you get an opportunity to have a bit more relationship with the, with the staff and the size of your company, but probably less so where I work. But actually there's that, that sense of partnership. Which is kind of what you're describing.
Yeah. People are proactive, who are actually, who are actually coworkers in this enterprise of whatever the company is, whatever they're trying to do, rather than those that are like, no, no, this is a very transactional, there's not really a relationship there. It's like, I do what I'm asked to do, you pay me.
[00:44:15] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[00:44:15] Will Sopwith: That's it.
[00:44:16] Matt Edmundson: Mm.
[00:44:17] Will Sopwith: As opposed to people that are like, I get what you're trying to do, and I, and I wanna lend everything I have to it, but I need to keep boundaries and, mm. It's a more relationship than translators, isn't it? Yes,
[00:44:26] Matt Edmundson: it is. Go on,
[00:44:28] Will Sopwith: go on. No, come on.
[00:44:29] Mike Harris: Well, um, I just, I, I, I liked what you were saying about, um, you know, just when you were talking then about working with other people, one of the things that I thought was, that I liked, um, was just the fact that God wants.
Wants us to work with him
[00:44:50] Will Sopwith: Yeah.
[00:44:51] Mike Harris: In that like we are collaborating Yeah. With God, we did that originally and I don't think that's changed. Mm-hmm. You know, I think when, you know, Matt, you are running your business or doing something like that, you, I, I guess it, you can feel like you are on your own at times maybe doing it, but remembering that when we are working now, we are still now collaborating with God.
We have a, a God who is intimately interested in being a part of everything that you are doing. And, you know, there, there was lots in the notes about, you know, the fact that for, you know, for many ma probably Christians, they would think that, you know, if, if, if you are. Really doing the work of God, then you're working for the church.
You know, you are, you are being a pastor or you are being a mission matter that you're doing like that. But, but, but it's just that, you know, they, they were gardeners and got wanted to be intricately involved in what they were doing and in working with them. And I just think the same, you know, when you are created something that is beauty beautiful, when you are making, uh, something excellent, when you're doing something that's just really, really good, whatever that is, um, you know, then, then God wants to be a part of that.
[00:46:19] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:20] Mike Harris: Um, the, the, the other thing that I was thinking, um, and I didn't put this in the talk, but it's sort of a big part of big, big part of my working career and I think it's probably important to say is that. If your job, you know, if, if having listened to this and you think, you know, my job at the moment is so hard, you know, we, we've said that work was not the problem.
Okay. That, that when things went wrong, work became hard. And so we should expect work to be hard and, and to have its problems. However, there is a point at which work gets too hard and, you know, often that's because of our own failings and we've just strived and strived and strived. But I got to the point in my job where my work had become so stressful, um, that it had begun to affect my health and it would be going to affect, um, how I, you know, operated the home and stuff like that.
And so I ended up coming to the decision that I felt like was the right one, which was to leave my job.
[00:47:26] Matt Edmundson: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:26] Mike Harris: And I think, like as a Christian, you know, it's important that, you know, if you are in a job where you are. Working too hard where it is having an impact on your health and it's having an impact on your relationships, then may be the right thing to do is either to completely transform the way you think about that job or to leave.
Yeah. And you know, I could only leave a public se, public sector job with all the perks of that and become a gardener because I ultimately trusted that.
[00:47:58] Will Sopwith: Yeah.
[00:47:58] Mike Harris: That God is my provider.
[00:48:01] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:48:01] Mike Harris: And you know, you are not trapped, I suppose, is what I'm saying. You are not trapped. That's such a good point.
God is your provider. Yeah. And if you are in a position like that, then you have the freedom, um, to leave and to do something else. Yeah.
[00:48:16] Will Sopwith: No. Absolutely.
[00:48:17] Matt Edmundson: Well, will do you wanna talk about your, how you'd make a decision to leave job?
[00:48:22] Will Sopwith: Yeah. I'm leaving my job, job on Tuesday.
[00:48:25] Matt Edmundson: I'll throw you in the deep end.
[00:48:26] Will Sopwith: Well, I was just thinking of all the times I've sat in interview panels and had to justify my CV actually.
'cause my, my working life has kind of, there was elements of building a career at an early stage for various reasons that that didn't happen. And so it feels very bitty and, and trying to draw out the kind of threads. 'cause people ask you that. It's like, so, so why did you leave this job? And, and why, why did you start doing that?
And, and, and it's that exactly. It's, it's that sense of, um, my employer is not the, not the thing here. It's actually what work have you got for me to do? God. Mm. And so, so I was, I was, yeah, in a similar position last summer, beginning to think, go, God, what, how do you want me to use my time? You know, I was giving, I was being a good employee.
Giving all I could to, to my job. But got to the point of like, this is, this is not what I want to be doing actually. And again, that there's partly an age thing there, a stage of life, maybe a confidence to think maybe there's some other things I could use my time with. I've not got that much working life left.
Mm-hmm. Compared to what I had 30 years ago. Um, so, but, but this is another point I was gonna ask you about actually, Mike, is there's that sense of fulfillment, which I think can be part of who working for God, of like, fulfilling our potential, the, the natural giftings and skills that we have. And then I suppose working in those much like that feels like a sort of garden thing.
[00:50:00] Mike Harris: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:01] Will Sopwith: Like the before the fall, but that also can be kind of tied up in the identity thing. And, and how important is the fulfillment of our potential? 'cause it's something I've. Struggle with, I think, over the years. Mm. That it's like I've had a great education. Mm. Had some good jobs and experience. Often, unfortunately, the potential is like, I, I have the potential to earn a really good wage and to be managing a very large enterprise of some sort.
Um, he says humbly. Um, but, but then, well, I'm not doing that and I've not chosen to do that for various reasons. And, and, and that can become a struggle and a pressure of like, I should really be fulfilling this potential of my education and my chances or whatever. But actually there's something godly and fulfilling our potential as well.
So how do, where do you see that that factoring into our work for God, that fulfillment of who we are?
[00:50:56] Mike Harris: Of who we are? Yeah. I suppose, you know, I, I mean, I, I think you've summed it up quite well, to be honest. I think when that potential becomes a burden, um. Then it's, it's, it's probably gone a little bit far.
Um, you know, we, we all have enormous potential because we have the creator of the universe living inside of us. So ultimately our potential is unlimited. But who, who, who can measure up to that?
[00:51:29] Will Sopwith: Yeah.
[00:51:30] Mike Harris: Who can measure up to that? I can't. Um, you know, and I, yeah. You know, we, we are, we are here to do the best that we can.
And you know, I, I know that when I do a good job, when I am in a garden and I've been asked to do a job, and I can look back at the end and I think, do you know what? I have, I've, I've applied the limit. The knowledge that I have got has been really, really useful here. Mm-hmm. And has transformed this dying rose into something that now has a chance of becoming beautiful.
[00:52:11] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:11] Mike Harris: And this garden, that, that was a bit of a mess. Um, now is, is more ordered than everything now has a chance. And I do, I, I feel great about that. I feel really good. And, um, I go home feeling different. I, I, I totally understand that. And that feels like I have achieved, you know, closer to what I was created for.
Mm-hmm. Um, than, than on other days. Yeah. But I, I just think, yeah, when the potential becomes a burden, it, it, it's definitely gone too far. Um.
[00:52:49] Matt Edmundson: Well, it's interesting because, and, and again, forgive me if we've talked about this on Crowd. I, I dunno who, who we've talked about this to recently, but there's this really interesting verse in one of Paul's letters, right?
He's right into the Philippian church, um, which is his, like, you don't have favorites, but I think the Philippian church was probably Paul's favorite. Do you know what I mean? And it, this sort of church brought him great joy and he's writing to the church from jail and he's, he's chained to is jailer, right?
In Roman Times jail was not great. I mean, you think your employer is bad, right? Just, just put yourself in that. And Paul's writing this letter and he's writing away and he just goes, I want you to know, because everyone in the Philippian church is concerned about Paul, right? Mm-hmm. And the sufferings, the Bible talks about that he has gone through.
Mm-hmm. And again, not to belittle what we go through, but when I look at what Paul went through. It's not such a bad day, right? No, but, but he, but he writes this letter and he, and he talks about these sufferings and he goes, I want you to know that everything that's happened to me has served to advance the gospel.
[00:53:52] Mike Harris: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:52] Matt Edmundson: Right? And he is, and he talks about this because he felt his calling, his purpose in life, um, and it was kind of obvious from the Bible, was to preach the gospel to the Gentiles and to encourage other people, okay. It's really hard to preach the gospel to the Gentiles when you are changed to a jailer right in, in jail.
And Paul, in this instance, he doesn't look at what's happening to him. This is really, really important. He didn't look at the wall in front of him. He did what he could do to encourage others and preach the gospel from jail. He wrote a letter to the Philippian church. Right. Talking about how much joy they bought him.
That's what he did. He's not out there on the streets. 'cause in my head I'd be like, God, if you want me to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, that's awesome. I need to be out there though, dude. Right. I'm just like, I need an audience. Um, but Paul wasn't like that. And he wrote this letter and I just wonder, when Paul writes that letter, did he know that 2000 years later we would still be talking about that letter, that that letter would've won millions to Christ?
Do you know what I mean? It's just all we see is just this real fraction of time. But God sees this much bigger picture. But Paul, I think in that jail, understood something. And that is, he knew what God had called him to. And irrespective of the walls that he saw, he was just gonna try and do that. Leave the rest of God.
And he, he understood that everything that happened to him would advance the gospel. And I thought that was utterly remarkable.
[00:55:30] Will Sopwith: Yeah. '
[00:55:30] Matt Edmundson: cause it's easy to see. Yeah. What we don't have, it's easy to see the bad employee. It's easy to see the fact we don't have a job. It's easy to see. The fact we have long-term sickness, it's easy to see everything and go, God, hang on.
This is not what we agreed. Rather than going, okay, well I'm here, God, what are you gonna do? How are we? How are we, how are we gonna do what you want me to do in this place? A tiny jail cell jailed to a guy? How do I encourage others? And how do I preach the gospel? Mm dunno. I'm just gonna write this letter.
[00:56:00] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:00] Matt Edmundson: Do you see what I mean?
[00:56:01] Will Sopwith: Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. No, it's,
[00:56:03] Matt Edmundson: yeah.
[00:56:04] Will Sopwith: That's great perspective.
[00:56:05] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. We should all be more Paul. Uh, that's my, we should do a sermon series. Be more Paul. Anyway,
[00:56:11] Will Sopwith: any more from the chat?
[00:56:12] Matt Edmundson: Let's have a look.
[00:56:13] Will Sopwith: Since I don't have access
[00:56:14] Matt Edmundson: to still, you don't have access to them. Do you still, um, uh, Sonya says, when I was having a bad day at work, I would take a breath and remember I was working for God.
It allowed me to give people more grace.
[00:56:25] Mike Harris: Yeah.
[00:56:26] Matt Edmundson: Amen. Which is very true. Jan says, A good book to read is Milton's Paradise. Lost. Not Read that one actually.
[00:56:32] Mike Harris: No.
[00:56:33] Matt Edmundson: Um, Sharon says, another good book to read is Tim Keller's Every Good Endeavor, which is a great book. Mm-hmm. Um, funny Budgie Antics, uh, which I still think is a great YouTube name.
Uh, thanks Louise. Um, she does a cleaning job two days a week before that, did care for 12 years, but is looking to start her business in calligraphy. She's doing calligraphy. Um, I would like to do family trees in calligraphy. That's what she'd like to do. So maybe that's what God's laid on her heart.
Mm-hmm.
[00:57:05] Mike Harris: I've got another book as well. Um, I don't know who wrote it, but it's a book called Leaf by Niggle.
[00:57:11] Matt Edmundson: Leaf by Niggle?
[00:57:12] Mike Harris: I think so. I think so. You making think, oh, might be making it off by this Sharon
[00:57:19] Will Sopwith: Leaf, by niggle.
[00:57:20] Mike Harris: Need an author? Think, I think Sharon. It was either by CS Lewis Hulking or one of those crew.
Um. Tolkien via Tolkien.
[00:57:30] Matt Edmundson: Oh, have you found it?
[00:57:32] Mike Harris: Oh, is it
[00:57:32] Matt Edmundson: called Leaf by Niggle? Yeah,
[00:57:34] Mike Harris: it's there go. I got it right. I didn't dream it up. Um, gr Yeah, great book. Great book. Um, to read, especially if you think that your job or what you do is insignificant, um, and you Yeah. Really, really, really good book. I, I was also just thinking as well, the other good thing about working for having a perspective where you think you work for God is because I know for, for, there was many, many times when I was working and I just didn't feel like my work was being seen.
[00:58:08] Matt Edmundson: Mm. So.
[00:58:10] Mike Harris: I would put hours of work into doing something, um, creating a form that I just thought, you know what? I've been asked to create this form and no one is ever gonna look at it, ever. And or, you know, I was maybe doing some extracurricular, something like that. And, and no, I'm never gonna get any recollection, uh, never gonna get any praise for this at all.
Mm-hmm. And I think, you know. Yeah. If you are working for God, then you are seen. Yeah. And everything you do is seen and is of value. And I don't fully understand, but the Bible does say that when we work in the Lord that we are working for an inheritance. Yeah. That will come and I don't fully get it, but, but you are seeing, and the work that you do is seeing and valuable.
I
[00:58:59] Matt Edmundson: don't get it, but I will receive
[00:59:00] Mike Harris: it. Amen.
[00:59:02] Matt Edmundson: And on that bombshell. Uh, to quote someone who should probably not be quoted on
[00:59:07] Mike Harris: church livestream,
[00:59:08] Matt Edmundson: actually thinking that through. Um, uh, what we're gonna do is go to Live Lounge, so, uh, we'll put in the comments, the link. I say we, uh, Sharon's put in the, it's there already.
Go Crowd Church slash Meet. If you'd like to come meet us on Google, uh, we would love to meet you and just chat, um, in that, uh, I think Aiden son, you'll be in there. I'll be in there. So yeah, come say, how's it be? Good to see you. Um, in closing, uh, chaps, uh, Brandon, mind time, uh, any, anything
[00:59:43] Will Sopwith: from you? I'm, I'm really struck by by what, what you brought Mike and what we've been talking about, how easily we equate work with job and how difficult that makes all of this.
And I think if we can just disentangle our job that that kind of contract with an employer to get money, which is kind of a, feels like an essential part of modern life. From work that kind of helps us. And, and let's look more broadly. Let's not just focus on what's my job. Yeah. But what is my work for God?
And a job may be part of that. Mm-hmm.
[01:00:13] Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
[01:00:13] Will Sopwith: A job may not be part of that, but I, I wonder whether that just kind of lifts off some of those pressures of identity.
[01:00:19] Matt Edmundson: It's interesting that the word job and the book of Job have the same feeling. Uh, it's a bit of a Bible joke if you know, Bible, uh, job
[01:00:27] Mike Harris: job's, life wasn't very good for a little while.
[01:00:29] Matt Edmundson: Um, Mike, anything from you in closing?
[01:00:32] Mike Harris: Um, no. I mean, I think, you know, the reason why God didn't want the Israeli to make idols is because he'd already made one and it was us. We were created in his image and we are pleasing to him before we even start anywhere. So. Yeah, work from that point of view, I guess.
[01:00:51] Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Fantastic. Thanks guys. Thank you so much for joining us. Make sure you like, subscribe and stay connected with us and all of that good stuff. Crowd Church is our website if you want more information or wanna sign up to the newsletter. Um, but that's it from Mike. That's it from Will, that's it from myself.
Do come and join us next week as we carry on this conversation around money. We're gonna be looking at giving, I dunno how many people are gonna turn up next week. Uh, so yeah, we are gonna, don't worry, I'm not gonna ask you for a single penny. Um, but we are gonna be talking about the grace of giving. So do come join us for that.
Uh. If you come join us in Live Lounge, I will see you in there. If not, have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. But we'll see you next time. Bye for now.