#40 Is Marriage Outdated or Just Misunderstood?

21 Sept

YouTube Video of the Church Service

What makes marriage different from just living together? It's a question many people wrestle with, especially those new to faith. Beyond saying it's "sacred before God," what's the real difference?

This week at Crowd Church, Matt Edmundson tackled this head-on, sharing how his own thinking about marriage was completely broken. Growing up with divorced parents, he genuinely wondered if marriage was just an expensive party for something that probably wouldn't last anyway.

The Problem Isn't Marriage - It's Our Thinking About It

The statistics tell a revealing story. In 1970, seven out of ten adults were married in the UK. Today it's four out of ten, predicted to drop to just three out of ten by 2050. But people haven't stopped wanting committed relationships. So, instead, we've substituted marriage with cohabitation – living together without being married – which has increased by 144% in the last 30 years.

Culturally, then, the message has become that marriage is outdated, unnecessary, and even potentially harmful. Why tie yourself down legally when you can just live together? Why make promises you might not keep? Living together first makes sense - like test driving a car before you buy it, right?

But what if the problem isn't that marriage is broken, but that we've forgotten what marriage actually is?

God's Blueprint - Leave, Hold Fast, Become One

At the dawn of time, God gave us the original blueprint for marriage in Genesis 2:24: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

In this tiny verse, we discover three powerful truths about biblical marriage:

They Leave

This isn't just about moving out of your parents' house. It's a fundamental shift where the marriage bond takes priority over all other human relationships. It's leaving your lifestyle of singleness, your way of doing things, even those unconscious expectations about how Christmas should be done.

Practically, it means leaving behind gifts or love letters from exes. It means choosing to put your spouse first - above family, friends, career, everything. Matt reflects that if we truly grasped this revelation about leaving, it would transform our marriages. So many people get married wanting to keep one foot in their old way of living rather than truly leaving it behind.

They Hold Fast

The Hebrew word means to stick like glue, to bond permanently like super glue or five-minute epoxy resin. It's not "let's see how it goes" or "as long as we're happy." It's a deep, unbreakable covenant connection encompassing emotional, spiritual, and physical unity.

When you hold fast to your spouse, you don't need an emotional affair with another person. Men, especially, if you hold fast to your wife, you won't need to look at another woman ever. If you catch yourself doing that, remind yourself to hold fast to your wife.

Malachi puts it powerfully: "The Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant." God is a witness to how we treat our spouses. This isn't just a human agreement - it's a sacred covenant with God watching and participating.

Holding fast takes effort and intentionality. You cannot be passive in marriage. If you are, you're heading for danger, and you'll get there quickly.

They Become One Flesh

This is the mystery at the heart of marriage - two separate people becoming one unified whole in every aspect of life, especially (but not solely) in sex.

Matt shares how this was a massive barrier to Christianity for him personally. At 18, driven by testosterone and cultural messaging, the idea that sex before marriage was wrong seemed completely outdated. To quote George Michael, that well-known sage of wisdom: "Sex is natural, sex is good. Not everybody does it, but everybody should."

When he started going to church, there was this older preacher who seemed to talk about sex every week - as though it was an evil thing. Matt didn't listen for months, thinking the guy was a bit of a nutter. He even prayed, "God, I can believe all this gospel stuff - just don't ask me to stop having sex before marriage, because I'm not going to do it."

But eventually, he came to a place of surrender, knowing God had a better plan even if he didn't particularly enjoy the idea at the time.

For Those in Complicated Situations

But it’s not always that black and white, and we can have complicated situations. Maybe you've recently come to faith and you're living with someone you love. Perhaps you've bought a house together. Maybe your partner isn't yet a Christian, but you are.

These are real-life situations that don't have simple answers. God's design for marriage and sexuality isn't about limiting life - it's about showing something beautiful and worth moving toward.

When Jesus met people in complicated situations, he didn't condemn them. He showed them a better way and gave them grace for the journey.

If you're in one of those situations:

Don't hide it from God - He knows. You can talk to him without feeling condemned. He's not shocked by your circumstances
Have honest conversations - Talk with someone you know, trust, and respect in the Lord who can help you navigate what's going on
Remember God's grace - It covers you whilst you're figuring all this out

That said, if you were already a Christian and then started having sex outside of marriage, that's different. That requires repentance because you're acting against what you know to be true, and that has complications for your marriage.

Why Does This Matter?

Why should anyone care what an ancient book says about relationships? Because the principles actually work.

Research validates God's design:

Two to three times higher satisfaction for sexually exclusive couples
50% lower divorce rates for those who prioritise their relationships
More marriages stay together when couples don't live together before marriage

You might dismiss the source, but you can't dismiss the outcomes. The principles of covenant marriage work. If you want a good marriage, God's way is definitely the best.

Understanding Covenant vs Contract

Early in Matt's Christian walk, he had a tape series (ask your grandparents what a tape is) - six hours of teaching on covenants. He wore those tapes out listening repeatedly because he knew there was something he had to get from his head to his heart.

Through that study, he stopped dating - not for a set time, but it ended up being a couple of years. He studied scripture on covenant, marriage, relationships, and sex from cover to cover. That study, which lasted at least two years, changed his life completely.

When Sharon and Matt met, the question wasn't whether he could marry her - he knew pretty quickly he could. The question was whether he wanted to be in covenant with her. That's a different question entirely because a covenant is laying down your life for someone else.

It took a few weeks to make that decision, not because of uncertain feelings, but because of understanding the weight of what he was committing to. They didn't live together before marriage. They didn't have sex outside of marriage. They did it God's way.

Matt knew he was entering into a covenant, not a contract. He knew God witnessed this marriage and was involved. It was serious and had lasting effects for the rest of their lives. He wasn't looking for a way out because he understood what he was getting into.

How You See Marriage Changes Everything

How you see marriage, relationships, your spouse, and sex - all of that dictates how you approach it.

After 27 years of marriage, Matt can tell you it's still a wonderful thing. Not many people can say that. It doesn't mean it's easy or perfect - practising Christians still have a divorce rate of about 20-25%, which is both sad and bad.

But couples who attend religious services regularly are 50% less likely to divorce. There's something in this. Yes, there's still divorce in the church, but if you're active in your faith, that divorce rate halves.

There's even a shift in culture. Gen Z actually want marriage more than millennials did - 75% want to get married compared to only 43% of millennials. That's a massive swing. It seems the new generation isn't rejecting marriage, but rather the broken version of marriage they've seen or been sold.

Conversation Street - Real Questions, Real Answers

During the Conversation Street segment, some brilliant insights emerged from the community.

Are we differentiating between Christian marriage and civil marriage versus living together?

Absolutely. The talk focuses on Christian marriage - marriage for those who want to follow Jesus and the pattern God has laid down. Whilst the principles are good for everybody, this is specifically about covenant marriage before God.

Dan raised an interesting point: what about couples who were married (whether church or civil) and then both became Christians? Is there a decision to make, to say to God, "We didn't quite know what we were getting into then - this is what we're going to do now"? Perhaps it was legal back then, but now it has become a covenant.

Sharon noted that life is messy. When people have committed to marriage on one set of understanding, and then, as Christians, their understanding changes and deepens with what God intended, it becomes an exciting journey.

The importance of making a decision

Dan highlighted something crucial: with cohabitation, there's often not been a decision. There have been lots of little steps - "I like you, come back to mine, stay over, oh my toothpaste is with you" - and suddenly you're together, maybe with kids, but you've never looked at each other and said, "If we started this again, would I be with you? Would this decision be for life?"

When you come to Christ, it might be time to make a decision about your relationship with others. Not necessarily to break things, but to say, "This happened, but now let's take it forward into something more."

How does upbringing affect our view of marriage?

Dan shared that he had a really good upbringing with a stable marriage around him. His dad was a pastor, and he didn't even know anyone who'd been divorced for ages. He never thought it would happen to people he knew.

Recently, he had to have tricky conversations with his kids because they've seen marriages around them that aren't working. He told them, "Marriages don't just fail. Something's got to happen for it to fail, and something's got to happen for it to succeed." He wanted to pass on that understanding so they wouldn't just rely on what they saw around them.

Matt connected this to the parable of the sower, where the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of this world come in and choke the word. Both are growing together, and eventually the weeds will overcome them. That's a process. There's a process to successful marriages and a process to marriages that fail - it's not instant.

Sharon added that when she first came to Liverpool at 24, she saw a couple roughly her age who'd been married a year and still looked like they liked each other. She was absolutely shocked. She hadn't realised that her expectation of marriage was that you found someone, fell in love, got married, and then gradually hated each other more each year.

That year, God highlighted how much broken thinking had crept into her heart without her even knowing it.

Advice for younger people considering marriage

Matt shared something important for younger people: recently, there's been a spate of couples getting divorced or separating who probably shouldn't have got married in the first place. At the start of their relationship, neither had the courage to break it off due to the belief that, as Christians, dating for more than six months likely meant getting married.

He and Sharon decided to get married within five months, so he did the exact opposite - but they knew. Marriage is a covenant; it's lifelong, and in Christian circles, there can be pressure to get married young if you date for a while.

Be aware of that pressure. Sometimes the hardest thing you can do is break off a relationship if it's not right before God. Your 40-year-old self will thank you for having the courage to end it if needed.

But once you're in, you're in - you make that marriage work.

That said, scripture does talk about grounds for divorce - the three A's: abuse, adultery, and abandonment. These don't instantly create divorce, but there are scriptural grounds to discuss it with God.

Communication is crucial

Sharon highlighted a pattern she's seen in marriages that struggle: people not communicating issues. Maybe they're upset by their spouse but keep it to themselves, don't resolve it, hold onto unforgiveness, and then everything gets seen in that light until it becomes massive.

God can overcome any issue if we're willing to be honest, put our problems on the table, repent of our own shortcomings, and forgive the other person.

What helps a Christian marriage thrive?

Forgiveness would be the obvious answer. Quite early on, Matt and Sharon read "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" - not particularly a Christian book, but it has useful stuff. The concept was that men and women speak different languages.

The most useful page was a table showing: "This is what a woman says, this is what a woman means, and this is what a man hears" - all different. Same the other way around.

They would often do this thing where Sharon would say something, and Matt would go quiet. She'd look at him and ask, "Are you translating right now?" Because he was trying to take what he heard and think, "This is actually what she meant, which is different to what I heard."

When you walk in that attitude of forgiveness, believing your partner has your highest best at heart, even if they didn't communicate it well in that instance, it really helps.

Sharon remembers taking herself off before difficult conversations to think, "This is how I'm feeling - how can I communicate this in a way he's actually going to understand?" It took a lot of practice to communicate in ways they could understand each other without getting defensive.

Dan added that being able to communicate well isn't just relevant to marriage - it's relevant to any relationship because all of us come from different places and think differently. The scope for miscommunication is huge, so we need to work on it.

Marriage isn't just a challenge - it's amazing

Dan pointed out that marriage can be seen as a challenge that has to be overcome because it involves two different types of people. On some levels, it is, but it's also amazing because he can do things Lisa can't, and Lisa can do things he can't. Together they can do things they couldn't do on their own.

Yes, there are challenging times, but when Paul said "I've got a thorn in my flesh," he wasn't referring to his wife.

When you look back at the dawn of time, God said it's not good for man to be alone. Everything was good - this was paradise - and God went, "I can take this up a notch. I'm going to give you a wife."

That's the understanding: life can be good, and if God calls you to singleness, that's perfect. But if he calls you into marriage, that's going to take you from good to very good. Especially for men, it's not good that men are alone. Men spending time on their own for long periods, 98% of the time, it's not good.

If you are doing that, spending all your time on computer games by yourself, you need to get out into community. Even if you're not dating or married, just be with people because it's not good for men to be alone.

Dan added that marriage and being different, often having kids with different roles, it spills over into life. It's equipped him better to deal with people at work and with customers, as they're different from him. He's learned to convey things properly through marriage and those situations. It's not standalone.

The deeper spiritual truth of marriage

Sharon pointed to Ephesians 5:31-32, where Paul quotes back to Genesis about marriage but then says, "This is referring to the mystery of Christ and the church."

The Bible opens with the marriage of Adam and Eve and finishes talking about the marriage between Jesus and his bride, the church. It's got marriage all through it. Part of the reason for marriage is as a reflection of this relationship between Jesus and his church - that whole mutually serving each other, that commitment for life, that laying down your life for each other.

Marriage, being an image of something higher - pointing to a deeper spiritual truth and calling - makes a massive difference.

Marriage Isn't Outdated - It's Timeless

The question isn't whether marriage is outdated or whether it's worth saving. The question is: are we ready to discover what it was always meant to be?

In marriage, there's no room for porn because that breaks the covenant. We keep short accounts with our spouses. We know our roles, our purpose, and our drive is to honour Christ and build his kingdom together.

Research even tells us that if you're married, you're literally going to live longer and healthier lives. But that change starts with understanding marriage isn't just about you or another person. It's about reflecting the eternal love between Christ and his church to a world that's maybe forgotten what real love looks like.

Marriage is not outdated. It's timeless. The problem isn't the institution - it's that we've forgotten what it actually is. When marriage becomes a covenant and not a contract, everything changes.

Is Marriage Actually Outdated or Just Misunderstood?
Matt Edmundson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Crowd Church coming to you live from Liverpool this Sunday night. My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your first time or whether you've been part of our journey since the beginning, it's brilliant to be with you. We are a community of people figuring out what it means to follow Jesus.
In real life, not the polished, perfect version, but you know, the messy, genuine, brilliant reality of this whole thing called Christianity. So let me give you a little roadmap of what's gonna be happening over the next hour. We'll have a talk, lasts about 20 minutes looking at the topic of relationships, which is the section of our series becoming whole, that we are looking at exploring how Christ makes us whole across every domain of life.
After the talk, we've got conversation streets. Oh yes. This is where we [00:01:00] dig into what you've just heard, and you get to be part of that discussion. So if you're with us live, jump into the comments, share your questions, your thoughts, and your stories. And of course, if you're watching on Catchup or listening to the podcast, then thanks for being part of the Crowd too.
Right? Let's meet your hosts and let's get started.
Meet Your Hosts
Sharon Edmundson: Well, hello and welcome to Crowd Church. Uh, my name's Sharon and I'm hosting tonight along with the fabulous Dan.
Dan Orange: Hello.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, it's great to be here. Um, tonight we have, well. We're part in a series to do with becoming whole, and we've been doing this for many, many weeks and we're in a section about relationships at the moment.
And tonight we have the fabulous Matt, I can say that he's my husband. Uh, he is actually gonna be talking about marriage. So, um, yeah, Dan, yeah,
Dan Orange: this'll be good. Will it? I'm [00:02:00] looking forward to the talk and I'm looking forward to Conversation Street afterwards. So ask all your questions. We actually got someone talking about marriage and we've got the couple.
Here. Yes, we do. So we should get some good answers.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. It's potentially a, a, a quite a tricky subject I think these days. Um, but I've listened to the talk already. Uh, well, I've, um, read the talk already and it's got some just like really fabulous stuff in it. So what's gonna happen is we're gonna have Matt do the talk now, and then after that we are gonna, me and Dan are gonna chat about it and our thoughts.
Matt's gonna join in the conversation, but we also want you to join in the conversation. Do as he's talking, put your comments in the in the comment section and we will try to pick up on those as we go along. So I will hand over to Matt.
Talk with Matt Edmundson
Matt Edmundson: Well, thank you very much. Thank you very much. It's great to be here.
And like Sharon said, uh, we are talking about marriage tonight and I'm doing that my, whilst my wife is here, so [00:03:00] I have to be on my best behavior. Uh, and so, uh, a very, very warm welcome to you Crowd Church. Great to be with you this evening. Uh. Is marriage outdated or is it just misunderstood? That's the question that we are gonna be looking at tonight.
So let me start by asking you a simple question. What makes marriage different from actually living together? Good question. Right now, early in my Christian walk. I couldn't actually explain why a piece of paper and a religious ceremony actually mattered other than to say it was something sacred before God.
That's probably about as far as I could get. Right. Uh, because deep down I thought maybe actually there wasn't that much difference between marriage and just living together. Maybe marriage is just a sort of an outdated [00:04:00] institution. I dunno what you think to, maybe it's something. We clung to out of habit or maybe a sense of religious duty.
Now, my parents, uh, divorced when I was young. I was about nine years old. Dad moved out. Uh, I saw him every weekend and on Tuesdays, and I love both my parents both. Uh, yeah, they are. Uh, wonderful people in so many ways, but neither was exactly a poster child for successful relationships for me growing up.
Um, and that's okay. You know, so when someone challenged me about marriage, part of me thought, well, maybe marriage is actually just a really expensive party, you know, for something that probably won't last anyway. But looking back, I can see that the problem isn't, that marriage itself is broken. But my thinking about marriage was what was actually broken.
So spoiler alert, [00:05:00] fast forwarding all the way to the end, I do not think, uh, that marriage is outdated to answer the question in tonight's title. Uh, but I do wonder if the problem is that we've forgotten what marriage actually is. And to be fair, to my younger self, I wasn't the only one. That thought the way that I did.
In 1970, which I appreciate is going back a long time. Uh, seven out of 10 adults were married in the UK. Today it's four out of 10, and it's predicted that by 2050, only three out of 10 people will actually be married. Right. So what's happening? Is it a case of we just don't like each other anymore? Maybe that's what's going on.
I don't think it is. Uh, I think the reality has been actually, there's been a shift from marriage to cohabitation to living together [00:06:00] without actually getting married. And that. Increased by 144% in the last 30 years. I'm not gonna give you too many stats tonight, but I find these stats quite interesting.
Uh, so we've substituted marriage with living together, thinking in essence that they're probably the same thing, which is why the question, what makes marriage different from living together? A really, really interesting question for a Christian. The cultural message, I think is pretty clear, right?
Marriage is outdated, it's unnecessary, and actually. According to certain sectors of society, it's potentially harmful. I mean, why would you tie yourself down legally when you can just live together? Why make promises you might not be able to keep and living together first, right. Makes all the sense in the world.
It's a bit like, if I can put it, so crudely, test driving a car before you buy [00:07:00] it, right? And I get it. I do. Growing up, uh, marriage didn't look. Like, uh, something you'd want to sign up for. Like I said, my parents got divorced and it kind of taught me that marriage ends and that people fall out of love and that promises get broken.
As a teenager, I have, I had no problem, uh, having more than one girlfriend at a time. It was, it was almost like a competition, if I'm honest with you, between me and my mates. Uh, another notch, another number. You know, the conquest became more important than the person. Not a great way to treat, uh, relationships.
I was unkind. Never really given myself to the other person, didn't trust them, and I cheated because that's what guys did, right? At least. That's what I learned from the culture that was around me at the time. This was my. This was my broken thinking about marriage. It was my broken thinking about relationships.
And when I first [00:08:00] started going to church, I expected really to find more of the same, you know, the same sort of broken relationships that I'd seen outside the church, just with religious people, uh, pretending maybe that they were fine. Um, and of course, what I found in the church wasn't perfect, not by any stretch, but.
It was so very different, uh, from anything I'd seen before. Not only was everybody, it seemed married, but actually most of them seemed happy about it as well. They enjoyed each other's company. They laughed together, which just blew my mind. They went on dates, who knew? Right? They held hands in public and everything.
Uh, and they were courteous to each other. More than that, they invited you into their homes where you could see the real life of their marriage and you would see how [00:09:00] they did disputes and how they did, you know, falling out and how they resolved that and how they supported each other through difficult times.
So yes, they had arguments, but they remained respectful. And the big one for me, which always spoke well to me. Was actually, they always spoke well of their spouse. Especially when their spouse wasn't there. You'd never hear anyone bad mouth or tell dirty jokes. So I started to see that marriage could be different, which is great, but to get there, God had to fix my broken thinking about relationships and any good place to start when you know you've got broken thinking is with the Bible.
Because it tells you what marriage is and what your responsibility as a husband or as a wife is, which is one of the reasons maybe culture doesn't like the idea of marriage because it actually [00:10:00] carries this idea of responsibility and not just responsibility on its own, but responsibility before God, which I appreciate.
Neither of those things is a very popular idea. But in Genesis writes, at the dawn of time, God gives us his original blueprint for marriage. It says in the book of Genesis, chapter two, verse 24. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they should become one flesh.
So in this tiny verse, we learn three very powerful things about marriage, about biblical marriage and what it is that we should really, really get our heads around. And so the first one is this. It says that they leave. This isn't just about moving out of your parents' [00:11:00] house, although that's part of it.
Men listen up especially, uh, it's a fundamental shift where the marriage bond takes priority over all other human relationships. It is leaving your lifestyle of singleness. It is leaving your way of doing things, and practically even it's about leaving. Gifts or love letters from your ex as well. It's about leaving this sort of unconscious expectation that you have of your future spouse even.
Practical things. I dunno if you had this done, how you do Christmas. Yeah. Um,
Dan Orange: that's a big one. That's a big
Matt Edmundson: one, right? How do you do Christmas? Like with different traditions, uh, that you grew up with, your spouse grew up with, everyone's got expectations about Christmas, you are leaving. All of that behind.
And you are choosing to put your spouse first, above family, friends, career, [00:12:00] everything. And I think this idea of leaving is a revelation in and of itself because so many people that I know get married wanting to keep one foot, uh, in their old way of living rather than leaving it. If we get the revelation about leaving, I think it would change our marriages, but it's not the only thing.
It is the first thing you leave, uh, but it's not the only thing. So second. Genesis talks about holding fast, hold fast to your wife. The Hebrew word means to stick like glue, which I think is a really good thing to bond permanently, like super glue, you know, like five minute epoxy resin. Uh, for those of you who work in wood, uh, it's to just permanently bond, right?
Um, it's not. It's not a, oh, let's see how it goes, or as long as we're happy. It is [00:13:00] a deep unbreak, unbreakable. It's a deep unbreakable covenant connection, uh, that encompasses emotional and spiritual and physical unity. Um, if you hold fast, if you bond. To your spouse. You don't need to have an emotional affair with another person.
And men especially, listen, if you hold fast to your wife, you will not need to look at another woman ever. And if you do, if you catch yourself doing that, remind yourself hold fast to your wife right now. In the Old Testament, uh, there is a book written by a guy called Malachi, which is one of the coolest names on the planet.
Uh, he was a prophet and he wrote, um, that the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom? You have been faithless though. She's your companion and [00:14:00] your wife by covenant. Some really strong language, some really choice words. God is a witness to how men listen. God is a witness to how you treat your wife.
She's your partner and your companion by covenant. And God doesn't just see this. Uh, as a human agreement, like some kind of contract. It's a sacred covenant with God, the creator of the universe, watching and participating and witnessing, and you have to hold fast to that you've. Got to be committed because this takes effort.
It takes intentionality. You cannot be passive in your marriage because if you are, I think you're gonna head for danger and you are gonna get there very, very quickly. You have to hold fast to your spouse. [00:15:00] Genesis also tells us, uh, beyond holding fast, uh, beyond leaving, it talks about becoming one flesh.
Now one flesh. This is the mystery at the heart of marriage. Two separate people becoming one unified whole in every aspect of life, especially. But not solely in the area of sex, which we are gonna talk about a little bit, uh, because this was a massive barrier, uh, to Christianity for me personally, for a long time when I was 18 and driven by, well driven and fueled by testosterone and cultural messaging, uh, the idea that sex before marriage was wrong, seemed completely outdated.
Uh, I did not. Enjoy it. Did not think it was right to quote George Michael, that well-known sage of wisdom. Uh, sex [00:16:00] is natural. Sex is good. Not everybody does it, but everybody should. And I was firmly in that school of thought, right? I was there. And so when I started going to church, when I was about 18 years old, there was this silver head, uh, preacher, an older guy, and it felt honestly like he talked about sex.
Every single week, he could not get off the topic it seemed. And I remember sitting there in church thinking there was something wrong with that dude. Uh, because he would talk about it as though it was an evil thing, as though something was wrong. And I didn't listen to him for months. I thought he was a bit of a nutter.
I'm not gonna lie, I thought. I thought the gospel thing. Okay. And I remember praying in church probably for the first time actually after hearing the gospel. And I remember saying to God, and I can picture where I was when I said this, God, I can believe all of this, this whole gospel thing, that Jesus came and died for me.
Just do not ask me to stop having sex before marriage, um, [00:17:00] because I'm not gonna do it. And it was a real barrier for me. You know, how could something so natural be so wrong? But eventually. Um, it took a while, a little while, but eventually, uh, I came to a place of surrender when God knocked, uh, on the door, um, of my heart, and that's where I gave that part of my life to him as well.
Every part of it. I didn't particularly enjoy the idea of doing that. I didn't. Didn't think it was right. Um, I'm not gonna lie, uh, but I knew that God had a better plan in this and I just had to find out what that was. Now I know, uh, some of you watching this are navigating, uh, complicated situations.
Maybe you've recently come to faith and you are living with someone you love. Perhaps you've even bought a house together. Maybe your partner is not yet a Christian, but you are. They're still on their own faith journey, and I think there are real life situations that don't have [00:18:00] simple answers. Right.
It's not as straightforward as me going, well, you should, should not do that because I don't think that's actually right, and I'm not here to add guilt or pressure to you to make a hasty decision that might not make sense for you or your family. What I want you to hear is that God's design for marriage and sexuality isn't about limiting your life, though.
It's about showing you something beautiful and something that's worth moving toward. When Jesus met people in complicated situations, he didn't condemn them. He just kind of, he showed them a better way, didn't he? And he gave them grace for the journey. So if you are in one of those situations, let me encourage you to do a couple of things.
One. First, don't hide it from God. He knows about it. You can talk to him about it. You can pray, uh, without feeling condemned. He's not shocked by your circumstances. And I think sometimes we, we [00:19:00] think something's wrong, so we just lock that away in our hearts, which is what I did for a little while, but actually talking to God about it and bringing it to God.
I think is a, is a perfectly sensible thing to do. The second thing, uh, I would probably go and have some honest conversations with someone you know and trust and actually respect in the Lord, as in there are, they are a good, solid Christian who've been a Christian for a while, um, and that can help you navigate what's going on.
And third, remember that God's grace covers you whilst you are figuring all of this out. So if it's a complex situation, if you're in those situations, don't panic. Don't worry. It's okay. Just enjoy the journey with God. Now that said, if you are already a Christian or you were a Christian, a Christ follower, and then you started to have sex outside of marriage, um, I think that's a different situation, if I'm honest with you, and if I'm gonna be totally straight 'cause of time.
I think that requires repentance because you are acting [00:20:00] against what you know to be true. Right. And I think that has complications on your marriage. It really does. And we'll, we'll come to that. But why? I mean, let's ask, let's be real, right? Why uh, is this a problem? What's it all about? Because like I said, I had to definitely understand God.
God would not spoil my fun. Surely. It's okay if you love each other, right? Well, remember Malachi said that she is your companion and your wife by covenants. So marriage is a covenant, something we hold fast to, we leave everything else. We hold fast and covenant to our spouse and we become one flesh. And I think even our biology, uh, is geared towards that.
So we can see that sex is more than just phy physical pleasure. It is the ultimate covenant act, uh, creating one flesh in the most intimate way possible. [00:21:00] And I think when you understand that casual sex becomes impossible because you're not just having fun. You understand from scripture, you're making covenant promises to that person with your body that maybe your heart isn't ready to keep.
And I think you're given away part of yourself that was designed to bind you to one person, your spouse, uh, for life. But why should I care? Why should I care what an ancient book says about relationships? Right? Why should I leave? Why should I hold fast? Why should I hold the sacredness of becoming one flesh?
Honestly, I think you do that because the principles actually work. Yes, you do. Now, the research, uh, actually validates this idea. This, uh, validates God's idea for marriage works in measurable ways. Like you are gonna have two to three times higher satisfaction. Um, if you are a sexually exclusive [00:22:00] couple, 50% lower divorce rates.
For those who prioritize their relationships, more marriages stay together. If the. Couples don't live together before they get married, which is interesting, isn't it? Perhaps you can dismiss the source. Maybe you're not, you know, into God. Maybe you think this is all a bit weird, Matt, I'm not gonna lie. Uh, but you can't dismiss the outcomes, the principles of covenant marriage work.
If you want a good marriage, God's way is definitely the best. So I don't think marriage is outdated. I think it's timeless right now. Early in my Christian walk, I had a tape series. Shows you how long ago it was. It was on tape. Uh, a tape series. If you dunno what a tape series is or if you dunno what a tape was, uh, ask your parents and if they don't know, yeah, you're gonna have to ask your grandparents.
Sorry. Uh, it just is what it is now. I had six of these things, six tapes, six hours of teaching on the topic of covenants, right? And [00:23:00] I wore those tapes plumb out, how much I listened to that message. I listened to it over and over again because I knew there was something I had to get from my head. To my heart, there was something that God had in there, so I immersed myself in that topic.
Remember I had broken thinking, how do you resolve broken thinking? You get into the Bible, and for me, I looked at this topic all about covenant, and it was in that. Study that I stopped dating. I made this decision to stop dating, uh, in my Christian, in my early Christian life. I didn't put a time limit on it, but it ended up being a couple of years, uh, which in itself is a bit of a miracle for me.
Not gonna lie. Uh, I took time to study the scriptures, like I said, on covenant, on marriage, on relationships, on this idea of sex. I stood at it. From cover to cover, and I wrote out all of these ideas that I gained over that brief time, and I put them in a little mini book. [00:24:00] Um, the first thing that I ever wrote down, really, so you can take a look at this for the cover Design, A Guide to Date and Sex and Marriage by Matthew Edmundson.
Notice how, how graphically the M turns into the e. Awesome. That's awesome. I wrote this in 95. I know that. 'cause it says Frontline Church on the bottom. Um, and that's when I worked for Frontline. So this is, this is what I did. Um, the other day. I got a, the other day, a couple weeks ago actually, I got a text message from my friend guy called Tony Odin who's been on Crowd.
Um. He just moved house, moved house a couple weeks ago, and when he moved house, he sent me that photo that you just saw because he's found, I think, the only copy of that thing in the world, which is promised to use as blackmail. So, thanks, tone. Um, in fact, he and Ian Dowsett, who's also been on Crowd, uh, were my best men.
And, uh, you'll see in this photo, uh, there's a copy of the book cover in front of them. They were using it in their best man's speech. [00:25:00] Uh, let me tell you, there was banter, there was laughter. They ripped into me. Uh, and quite rightly so, if I'm honest with you, 'cause I would've done exactly the same if it was them.
But lemme tell you, it was such a formative time for me, um, because I had to really seriously rewire. My thinking, God had to do a work in me about relationships. And that study, which lasted at least two years, that mini book actually as cheese testic as that book probably is, I don't read it now. Um, it actually changed my life.
So when Sharon and I met, um, the question wasn't whether I could marry her. I knew pretty quickly actually that I could, um, the question was whether I wanted to be in covenant with her. You know, you think about that question differently because a covenant is a laying down of your life for someone else.
And it took me a few weeks to make that decision, not because I was uncertain about my feelings. I was very certain about those, but because I [00:26:00] understood the weight of what I was committing to, we didn't live together before we got married. We didn't have sex outside of marriage. We did it God's way. We did it the right.
Um, and I knew that I was entering into a covenant, not a contract, and I knew that God had witnessed this whole thing. He witnessed our marriage, he'd got involved and it was serious and it was for the rest of our lives. And lemme tell you, it was a great decision, right? Yeah. You sure The best decision ever?
Oh, yes. Uh, now I was not looking for a way out when we got married because I understood what I was getting into, right? It's really important you don't look for a way out when you know what it is you're getting into. And I learned that how you see marriage, how you see relationships, how you see your spouse, how you see sex, all of that dictates very much how you approach it.
So my testimony is simply this, that God took someone like me with broken thinking [00:27:00] about marriage and about relationships and restored me. And I cannot begin to tell you how grateful I am because after 27 years of marriage just looking at you to check his 26, 27, uh, I can tell you that is still a really, really wonderful thing.
And not many people can say that. So it does not mean it is easy or perfect. Uh, practicing Christians still have a divorce rate of about 20 to 25%, which is both sad and bad. Um, it's not great, but couples who attend religious services regularly are 50% likely to divorce. Um. There's something in this, isn't there?
So yes, there is still divorce in the church, but if you are active in your faith, that divorce rate halves and there's a shift in culture too, which I find [00:28:00] quite fascinating. So Gen Z or Gen Z, do you know what's the right way to say it? Do you know? I dunno. Gen Z. In Gen Z. Okay. Uh, actually once, uh, marriage, they wanna get married more than millennials did.
So 75% of Gen Z want to get married compared to only 43% of millennials. That's a big swing, isn't it? It seems like the new generation are not rejecting marriage, but rather this sort of broken version of marriage that maybe they've seen or tried to have been sold. So, you know what? My three kids have grown up in a stable home.
Uh, well stable as I can make more stable 'cause of you rather than me. Probably, uh, they've seen a marriage, uh, that works not because we're perfect, although, you know, you are obviously very close. But, um, but because we understand covenant, which means men. In the covenant, in marriage, there is no room for porn, none whatsoever, because that breaks covenants.
I keep short accounts with Sharon. We [00:29:00] know our roles, our purpose, and our drive is to honor Christ and build his kingdom together. So marriage is not outdated. It is. Timeless. The problem isn't the institution. I think it's that. Maybe it's, we've forgotten what it actually is. And when marriage becomes a covenant and not a contract, everything changes.
Research even tells us that. Tells us, you know, if you are married, you are literally, uh, gonna live longer and healthier lives. Uh, but that change starts with understanding that isn't just about you or another person. It's about reflecting the eternal love between Christ and his church to a world that is maybe forgotten what real love looks like.
So the question then isn't whether marriage is outdated or whether marriage actually is worth saving. The question is maybe, are you ready to discover what it was always meant to [00:30:00] be? That's its.
Conversation Street
Sharon Edmundson: Thank you for that. Uh, can I just say I am very, very grateful for all the, the study that you've done with about marriage before we got married, and I'm also really grateful for the work that God done in did in my own life before we got together because I think without that we would've been an absolute disaster together, uh, between us and our stuff, but um, yes, we would've.
Yeah. So I think. The, the talk, although we've been married 27 years, I love hearing about Covenant again. Um, and I think in that talk there was lots of challenge and there was also lots that was really bumping heads with our culture. So, yeah. Um, so I wanna start this with, um, Heather has Oh, hi to everyone in the chat by the way.
We've got, um, Heather, Matt a. Jan. Hello everybody. Uh, but Heather's put really good point here. Uh, she said, are we differentiating between a Christian marriage and church versus a civil marriage [00:31:00] versus living together? Um, the answer to that is yes, absolutely. What we're talking about here is. Christian marriage.
So it's marriage for those who want to follow Jesus and want to follow the pattern that God has laid down. We're not talking about those outside the church, although, um, I do believe that a lot of the, the principles are good for everybody. Yeah. You got any thoughts on that?
Dan Orange: No, I, I, I read that question and, um, yeah, I thought, well, that's, that's, that's an easy answer.
And then I thought. Oh. What about when, if you, you've been married, let's say, whether it was a church marriage or a civil marriage, then you both become Christians. You, you might have said those vows before God or before someone that, you know, there's not a sort of religious or Christian is, is there a decision there that, that perhaps you should say to God?
We didn't [00:32:00] know quite what we were going into then. This is what we're going to do now. Perhaps it was legal back then. Yeah. And now it's, now it's covenant. Now it's, it's got something more than the the legal tick.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, that's an interesting point. I think that kind of touches on where Matt says that life actually is quite messy, isn't it?
And yeah, I think there is that hole. Okay. We've. We've committed to this marriage on one set of understanding, but actually, um, now that we are Christians, our understanding is changing and broadening or, you know, deepening with what God intended it to be. And yeah, I think it's an exciting journey potentially.
Dan Orange: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I, I think perhaps that's for me, one of the, apart from, let's take, let's take God out of it. Oh, you see what I mean? In a minute? Good luck with that. Yeah. The, the, the big thing with. Cohabiting and, um, like living together and marriage is, there's often not been a decision. There's been lots of little, [00:33:00] oh, you know, I like you.
Come back to mind, da, da, da. Oh, stay over. Oh, my toothpaste is with you. You know, and, and you've got to that stage. You're together. You might have kids, but you've never perhaps looked at each other and said. If we started this again, would I be with you? Would this decision be for life? Yeah. Um, and then we can put God back in and see what is, you know, that he, that it's a good idea what he's done.
That we have to make that decision. And I think when you, when you come to Christ, it might be that decision to make between each other and, well, not, perhaps not a decision because you're not gonna break it, but to say to each other. This happened, but now let's, let's take it forward into, into more, yeah,
Sharon Edmundson: yeah, definitely.
Um, I just wanna backtrack a little bit if that's okay. So Matt started off by talking about how his, um, experience growing up with his parents' divorce shaped his view of what marriage should be. I [00:34:00] just wondered if you've got any thoughts on that for yourself.
Dan Orange: Sorry, I was just. I'm just reading my notes.
Distracted. Okay.
Sharon Edmundson: So, um, yeah, how, how was your upbringing? How did your upbringing Yeah. Affect your view of marriage?
Dan Orange: Um, I had a really good upbringing. Upbringing, so I've had been in sort of surroundings of, of marriage, a stable marriage. My dad was the pastor of church. Those around him. I, I don't know if when I actually came across someone that had been divorced, you know, just even in that circle of friends, so it wasn't something that I ever thought would, would happen.
Um, so that, that definitely affected my, um, uh, what what I see. And I've had to have tricky conversations just recently with my, my kids because around us they've seen marriages that [00:35:00] aren't working. And I had to say to 'em, do you know marriages don't just, they don't just fail. It's, it's like Matt said, you can't be passive in a, in a marriage.
You got to be active that something's got to happen for it to fail and, and happen for it to succ succeed. So I wanted to pass that on to, so they didn't see a round. That, that mine and Lisa's marriage was what they saw as, as stable, not what was going on around.
Matt Edmundson: It's a really interesting point. There's, there's a, a parable in the Bible.
It's called the parable of the Sower, right? And this is, it talks about seed being so, and it talks about. The seed being God's word and how it bears fruit in our lives. And in that it talks about how the deceitfulness of riches, the cares of this world and the desire for other things come in and choke the word and make 'em fruitful.
And the analogy it gives is like weeds growing up [00:36:00] around something that's fruitful. And so both are growing together and eventually the weeds overcome it. That's a process. Right. It's not like it just was really strong and fruitful and then the next day it wasn't. There's a process, there's a choking, and I think that's true of so many failed marriages.
There's a process, like you say, and there's a process to successful marriages and there's a process to marriages that fail. It's not an instant thing. So I think it's a really good point.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. I just wanna say here as well that if you are someone who's divorced, please do not, um, take this as condemnation in any way that we will stand here as people saved by God's grace and that, you know.
All of us have got stuff and, um, but that God is able to redeem situations and to bring good out of yeah. Situations that might been really painful for you. Um, so yeah, so please don't. Take that as condemnation. Um,
Dan Orange: yeah, absolutely. We're not, not [00:37:00] perfect. And, and, and I, I would say if, if your marriage is struggling or even if it's just, you know, doing fine, get, get to know other solid married couples and, and chat with them and, and communicate.
We, um. We had a tricky time in our marriage, probably about 10 years ago, and Dave Cony was speaking last week. We got him and his wife on the phone. We said, you need to come over. We were cleaning the oven. We were cleaning the oven. That's, that's what tipped it over. Cleaning the oven. Yeah. I can't even remember all the details now, but we.
We are like for, for this day on. We just, we get someone to clean our oven. Now it's like, that's a well worth expense.
It might. Marriage
Matt Edmundson: tip there. Ladies and gentlemen. Uh, you wanna stay married longer, get someone in to clean your oven. Um, the trip now is to try and find a Bible verse.
Dan Orange: Yeah, I'll just say, that was just for [00:38:00] us. It was something that just tipped us over the edge and we thought, yeah, we got a good solid married couple to come over and we just chatted through things and the byproduct was.
Yeah, we move on. But yeah. Yeah. Someone else squeezes our oven,
Sharon Edmundson: I think. 'cause that is the thing, isn't it? Like God's plan for marriage is a fabulous one, but actually in reality, sometimes it can be really difficult. And I think most marriages hit these really tricky patches that sometimes you, you need extra help to be able to.
Get through them. Not just to survive, but to actually deal with the issues going on so that you come out better, not so that you're just hanging onto a bad marriage for the sake of it, but so that you can thrive and actually have a fabulous marriage.
Dan Orange: And do you know that that time has it helped our marriage because our communication was on a level which was okay, but, but sometimes we, both of us couldn't really talk about tricky things, so it didn't have that.
Yeah, [00:39:00] capability now it's got that capability to go right to the treaty stuff because we know we can talk through it. So it was, it was a hard time, but it was, that's a really good
Matt Edmundson: point because you. The resilience, I think in marriage comes from dealing with the complicated situations well, um, well maybe the wrong word, but actually determining to get through them Yeah.
Uh, in a, in a good way. And working through those builds. Resilience in your marriage. So communicating about the tricky stuff in a way that is, I mean, you're talking about conflict, aren't you, in a couple weeks. Yeah. Did you know this? I did know that. Yeah. Yes. So in a couple weeks we're gonna get into conflict and marriage and had, I would if that oven story might come up again.
Uh, so yeah, we've got that in a couple weeks. Um, basically Dan's gonna tell you how to argue Well, uh, is, is what's gonna happen. And to win No. And to win. Yeah. Not if you're the husband. Uh, that's not the goal. But, um, but no, and I, I think that like, it's a really good point. Resilience is a really important thing, and so if [00:40:00] you are facing stuff which is difficult or hard, it's not pleasant, but God will redeem that and can redeem that so that you come out of it together as a couple much stronger.
Right. I'm thinking of Stephen who was on the What's the Story podcast, and if you've not listened to What's the story? It's a podcast we've got on the Crowd Church website where we get people in just to. We just talked to 'em about what their story is, you know, about their Christian journey. Uh, and Steven came on and he talked about how when his wife had an affair, um, they were young Christian couple and his wife had an affair, and he talks about God's redemption through that.
Um, and it's a remarkable story and one I would strongly encourage you to go and listen to. Um. I, I just remember doing that interview with him and thinking, man alive, the grace of God is so strong because they had [00:41:00] one of the worst situations you face in marriage without any doubt. And. Yeah, they work through it.
That resilience is now built a much stronger marriage and he, he tells you all about it in the story. So definitely check it out.
Sharon Edmundson: We've also got, um, I'm trying to remember his name. He's done talks for us, um, who's also been on, what's the story? Who? Mark Buchanan. Yeah, Mark Buchanan. And he talks about how his marriage actually fell apart completely and didn't recover.
So, um, I think there's lots of different stories that. Thought. Well, just, I kind of encourage people whatever situation you're going through right now in terms of marriage, um, yeah. There, there's something on there in what's the story? Yeah. Um, absolutely. Just going back to my original question, we've gone all that like this, which is great.
Um, which was to do with our own experience. I've said this before on Crowd, but um, when I first came to Liverpool, um, I think I was 24 at the time. Um, I remember coming into church and seeing. [00:42:00] A couple who were roughly the same age as me, but they'd been married for a year and they looked like they still liked each other, and I was absolutely shocked.
And, um, I hadn't realized until that point that my expectation of marriage was that you found someone, you fell in love, you got married, and then you gradually hated. Each other more and more each year. Like if you had actually asked me what I'd thought about marriage, I would've said something completely different.
But, uh, I would've said, you know, the biblically correct kind of stuff, but actually what was in my heart, what had crept in without me even knowing it was something completely different. And, uh, I think, yeah, that was just a, that particular year God just highlighted so much to me of what was actually in my heart.
And, um. Yeah, it's just quite an interesting, well, I'm glad, I'm
Matt Edmundson: glad that changed Me too. Yeah. Because, you know, it was important that it changed. Uh, yeah. I think, and actually, let me, uh, just one other thing I want, I wanna say actually, if you are a younger person watching this, [00:43:00] um, and you are not yet married, um, and you are entering into a, that sort of phase of life where you're gonna start dating, um, or maybe you are already dating.
We have had a spate recently, um, of couples getting divorced, separating who probably shouldn't have got married in the first place right now. There's all kinds of things that we can talk about here, but just being totally real. What happened at the start of their relationship was that. Neither of them had the courage to break it off because at the time there was very much this belief that if you're dating more than six months as a Christian, you probably ought to get married.
And I don't think that's a particularly helpful way to think. Now, when we decided to get married, we decided to get married Within, inside, what, five months? Yeah, it was five months. So I, I did the exact [00:44:00] opposite of what I've just said in many ways. And that's okay. I mean, we knew that. We knew. I think what I'm saying to you is, um, marriage is a covenant.
It is life long, and I think in Christian circles, there can be a pressure to get married young if you date for a while. I want you to be aware of that pressure. 'cause sometimes the hardest thing you can do is to break off that relationship if it's not right before God and you go forward and you get married and at that point it's too late.
Um, because I don't think you can, I don't think you can go to your spouse and go, ah, we should never got married in the first place. I'm off. I don't think that washes with God. I think once you're in, you're in, you, you make that marriage work. And we've had plenty of stories like that. Um. But I think early on in your, in your dating, I was gonna say dating career, but actually it's, it's the wrong phrase, uh, in your, in your dating life, I think just be really [00:45:00] clear about what God is saying to you and what is pressure and from an outside culture, um.
Because like I say, sometimes the most courageous thing you can do is end the relationship. Uh, and your 40-year-old self will thank you for that. Um, but like I say, once you're in, you are in now there are some instances for divorce and separation, which is worth highlighting. The scripture talks about, we've mentioned this before on Crowd, um, there's abuse, there's a adultery and there's abandonment.
The three A's. Abuse is an obvious one. And when I say abuse, I mean genuine abuse. Not like, oh, you didn't cook me my favorite fish and chips tonight, I'm off. Um, abandonment, you know, is obviously clear and adultery is clear. That doesn't mean that they instantly create divorce, but you could argue that there is scriptural grounds for divorce in that, that like God has said, Hmm, okay, we can talk about this.
Um. So I think that's worth understanding because I appreciate that divorce does happen in church and it does happen for a number of [00:46:00] reasons. Um, and like Sharon said, we don't want to condemn anybody here because God can redeem a whole great deal of things. Um, so yeah, whether you are in marriage and it's difficult, God can redeem that.
Whether you're in a marriage and it's great, God can still do some cool stuff with that. Go and build God's kingdom together. If you're divorced, God can redeem that if you're single. Great. God can be in that. Uh, we're gonna talk about singleness, I think in the new year. Uh, from memory, I can't remember it's coming up.
I can't remember the exact schedule. Um, but whatever state you find yourself in whatever situation, I think God, uh, can be with you and God can redeem it. And, sorry. Oh,
Dan Orange: it's alright. The, um, and we talked earlier about having, you know, how you come. Where you are in your life with God and, and in that relationship.
And, um, I always remember friends of my parents in Birmingham and they had, um, an arranged marriage. So Indian had an arranged marriage and they became Christians and [00:47:00] they'd, there'd been no dating, there'd be nothing like that. They just, they were there because they. You know, they were told to be, and they had kids and, um, they both became Christians and the husband really prayed and said, God, I need to find love for my wife, because that's not why I was together.
And he restored, he restored that and well, or created it. And it's just a great story that, uh, I love to, I love to tell because I think it's brilliant how God sees marriage and then, and then helps you, you know. Work it. Work it out. Yeah.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. I think in whatever situation it there is that just being honest before God isn't there and saying, God, this is where I'm at.
I need your help. What, how, you know, what do I do? Um, yeah. Um, just thinking about Matt's advice to people who are maybe dating or ever, I've got, got my own one as well to add. Just I think just because we have seen, like over the years, different marriages fall [00:48:00] apart and obviously we don't know the ins and outs of all of it, but there are little trends that we kind of see.
One of them, Matt's already mentioned, I think another is where people. Are not communicating like, um, what, what the issues are. So maybe they're upset by their spouse or they're upset about something, but they, they keep it to themselves and they don't talk about it. Yeah. They don't, um, resolve the issue and then the issue just gets bigger and bigger and they hold onto the unforgiveness and then everything just gets seen.
In that light, and then it just becomes this massive thing. So I think. Uh, I think I've seen God, uh, God can overcome in us any issue if we are actually willing to put them out on the table to say, God, this is the way it is, to be honest, to repent of our own stuff, to forgive the other person. But if we're not actually willing to [00:49:00] do that, if you're with someone who's not willing to talk about that stuff, it's probably not gonna work.
You need someone who's, um, yeah, where both of you. You, you're gonna talk about stuff as it comes up. Yeah. And not hang onto to it.
Dan Orange: Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon Edmundson: Okay. I've got another question. Okay. I've got a whole list here. I'm just, uh, working through, just checking on the time. Yeah. We're okay. So, um, what things about Christian faith in particular would you say help a marriage thrive?
Matt Edmundson: Oh, that's a good question. Who would like to say that one? Forgiveness would be the obvious one. Yeah. Um, not that I ever need to give you of anything, sweetheart, but I feel like it's gonna be the other way around a lot. Like, you know, the, so I think practicing forgiveness is a, is a big thing, isn't it? You can't hold onto stuff.
You've gotta, you have to, as we, we joke about this, don't we, in that, um, quite early on in our marriage, we read the book. Uh, men are from Mars, women are from Venus. [00:50:00]
Sharon Edmundson: I think we read a page. It's not particularly a Christian book, it's not part, but it has some useful stuff.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does have some useful stuff, doesn't it?
And it's, the concept of the book was basically men and women speak different languages. Um, and so, uh, men speak Martian. Women speak Uchin, I guess, I dunno what you speak in, in Venus. Um, and so you speak different languages and so you end up doing this a lot. And it, the, the most useful page in that entire book was a, a table which says, this is what a woman says.
This is what a woman means, and this is what a man hears. And all of them were different. Right? And it was the same the other way around. This is what a man says. This is what a man means. This is what the woman hears, right? They were all different. And so. Quite early on in our marriage, you, we would often do this thing where you would say something and I would just go quiet and Sharon would just look at me and go, are you translating right now?
Because I'm trying to take what I, what I heard [00:51:00] and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to go through this thinking which goes, ah, this is actually what she meant. And it's different to what I heard. And I think when you walk in that attitude of forgiveness, when you walk in that attitude of this person is my life partner and I've gotten, you know, I think nothing but the best of them.
And they've got my highest best at heart. They might not communicate it in that instance. So therefore what I've heard might not be what was intentionally communicated. Uh, and I think that really helped us.
Sharon Edmundson: It really, really did. Yeah. Um, we did a lot of translating, I think in the early days. I remember, um, after having several of these incidences where.
I would say something and Matt would like, it was just like the wall had gone up and I'd be like, oh, I've obviously not said, I've not communicated well, what I mean, because that wasn't the reaction I was expecting. I remember just spending time before I then said like in future occasions if I was upset about something.
I would just take myself off for a while and go, okay, this is how I'm feeling. How can I communicate this in a way that he's actually gonna [00:52:00] understand it? And it did take quite a long of practice, didn't it? Just to, um, try and communicate in a way that we would understand and wouldn't just get each other's backs up all the time.
Dan Orange: Yeah. Being there too. And also the tone of how you say something. Still learning that one, I'm getting a bit better.
Sharon Edmundson: And I think that's relevant. Not just to marriage, is it? Yeah. But just to any relationship because all of us, we've, we all come from different places. We all think slightly differently. So it's like communicate it.
I mean, the, the scope for miscommunication is quite huge. Yeah. So we need to work on it.
Dan Orange: And I think sometimes. Marriage can be looked at. Like, it's just, it's just a challenge because there's two different types of people, two types of people, different people. And on some levels it is, but it's also amazing because I can do things that Lisa can't and Lisa can do things that I can't.
And together we can do things that we couldn't do on our own. And it, and it's [00:53:00] great that that's, that's what a marriage is. It's something that. We, we've both got different, um, skills and, and traits.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Dan Orange: That too often. It is, isn't it? Like, oh, it's two people.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Dan Orange: Don't, don't get on together or they're trying to do things different.
They're trying to pull
Matt Edmundson: away. Yeah. If
Dan Orange: you pull to together, it's, it's great.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Like, I, I love that. It's not a challenge. You have to, to over, I mean, there are challenging times. Yeah. But it's not like. It's not. It's not. When Paul said, I've got a thorn in my flesh, he wasn't referring to his wife. Right?
It's just, it's not that kind of thing. And I think when you look back at the dawn of time, God said, it's not good for man to be alone, as in everything was good, right? This was paradise. And God went, I can take this up a notch. I'm gonna give my wife. And I think actually that is the understanding that you have that life can be good here.
And if God calls you to singleness, that's perfect. That's brilliant. But if he calls you into marriage, [00:54:00] that's gonna make you much, it's gonna take you from good to very good, right? It's, it's that kind of, it's that kind of thing, isn't it? Where especially men, it's not good that men are alone. Men spending time on their own for long periods of time.
I don't care what anyone says. 98% of the time, it's not good. Genuinely speaking. And if you are, if you are doing that, if you are spending all your time on computer games by yourself, yeah, I think you need to get out to community because there's gonna, you're gonna be watching porn, not all of you, but Do you know what I mean?
There's all kinds of stuff going on there and it's just not good to be alone getting community get out there. Um, if you're, even if you're not dating, even if you're not married, just go and be with people. 'cause it's not good for men to be alone. Mm.
Dan Orange: And when, sorry, just just on that topic, within we finish one of the great things about that, um, marriage and being different, and then marriage often has kids and you've got to have that different role.
Is that it? It spills over Yeah. Into life, [00:55:00] doesn't it? It, it has equipped me better to deal with people I work with to, to deal with customers, you know, 'cause they're different to me. They don't understand the. You know what I, what I'm saying? I have to convey it, and I've learned that through, through, through marriage and through those situations.
It's not something that just, it's just standalone. Yeah. Yeah,
Sharon Edmundson: I was just going back to the question about how Christian faith can help build good marriages, and I think Covenant is a massive one for me. Um, probably don't have, I mean, Matt did talk about it, but don't have masses of time To properly get into that, there's a great
Matt Edmundson: talk on the Crowd Church archive about Covenant.
Great Talk. One of the best you'll ever.
Sharon Edmundson: Matt did that a few weeks ago. Um, but there's this whole thing for me, um, I'm trying to find, I've got all these notes written. I'm just trying to find the bit now, um, where Paul in Ephesians. 5 31 to 32, I think it is. Quotes back to Genesis, um, talking about marriage, but, and then says this is referring to the mystery of Christ [00:56:00] and the church.
And, um, the Bible opens with the marriage of Adam and Eve and it finishes with the marriage, which is talking about, um, the marriage of, between Jesus and his bride, the church and it, it's got loads of our marriage all in it. And part of the reason for marriage is. As a reflection of this relationship between Jesus and his church of that whole, um, like mutually serving each other, that commitment for life, that laying down your life for each other.
And I think that, uh, that whole image of, um, marriage being an, an, an image of something higher, um, I think that. That just helps me as well. It's not just like this little institution down on earth, but it is pointing to a deeper spiritual truth. Yeah. And, and a calling and, yeah. I can't get all my words out.
It's big. It's, and I think that having that something beyond just what you [00:57:00] are and the help. God, the Holy Spirit. Um, that just makes a massive difference. I'm aware we are really running out of time now. Um, have either if you got anything just quickly to add before we finish.
Dan Orange: I think if you, if you are in a marriage and you are thinking, ca, can I, can I do this?
What is my responsibility? Go and listen to that talk of Matts. Because just that, that, um, legal and covenant legal, we can think we just need a lawyer to get out of it. Or what can I, what caveat or what clause can I, can I use Covenant is is very different and it gives you that. Let's work at this. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. And, uh, I mean, we could talk about this for hours and in fact we're gonna talk about it next week and the week after. Um, so let me give a quick plug for next week. We are talking about perhaps some of the most controversial aspects of marriage next week. Uh, roles. [00:58:00] Um, so we're getting into headship and submission.
What the, what is that all about? Does the Bible really talk about that? Um, so we are gonna get into that next week, which I'm really looking forward to. Uh, 'cause I love the controversial topics. I'm not gonna lie, this, why isn't that good fun? Uh, so we're gonna get into that next week, and then, like I say, the week after, we've got Dan talking about conflict and resolution.
So we've got the little mini marriage course, I suppose, uh, in the whole relationship series. Um. So, yeah, that's my plug over.
Sharon Edmundson: Lovely. Well, I think we will finish it there for tonight then. Uh, hope to see you next week. Um, oh yeah, we, if you want to connect with us now straight after this. We are. Where are we meeting?
It's coming up on the screen. Google meets, uh, you can join us there just for a quick chat. Say hi. Um, other than that, if you could join us next week, that would be fabulous. Uh, hope that you have an amazing week. [00:59:00] Goodbye.