#41 When She Leads and He Follows (Biblical Marriage Roles)

28 Sept

YouTube Video of the Church Service

Have you ever seen those 1950s housewife posters? The woman in the fluffy dress standing next to her Hoover with that perfect smile, like she's just discovered eternal happiness in household appliances? We've all seen them floating around Instagram with captions ranging from "trad wives" to "patriarchy problems." But there is a more subtle problem that we have to ask about: have we accidentally connected this outdated stereotype to what the Bible actually teaches about marriage?

Because if we've labelled that stereotype as old-fashioned, wrong, or even harmful, and if we're secretly a bit ashamed of it, then we've probably done the same thing to the biblical teaching we've mistakenly attached to it. But what if what the Bible teaches about marriage roles isn't about keeping women in pinafores or men on pedestals? What if it's actually the most liberating framework for your marriage that you could discover?

Why We Struggle With Biblical Roles

When Sharon and Matt started family planning, they decided Sharon would stop working to stay home with the kids full-time. They felt that God was leading them there, Sharon actually wanted it, and they had faith in the adventure, despite Sharon earning more money at the time.

People's responses were interesting. Most were supportive, but some wondered if it was outdated. You could see people questioning whether Sharon was being held back from a career, whether this was Matt's decision imposed on her, rather than something she'd chosen.

The Bible doesn't explicitly say women should stay at home whilst men go to work. Some couples have the husband stay home whilst the wife works, and that's great. In our society, two incomes are often essential. God leads each family to what's best for that family.

But we still get uncomfortable about this conversation as Christians. We almost feel like we have to apologise for the idea of biblical roles in marriage. Why? Because we've bought into the assumption that someone fundamentally has to lose. That Sharon somehow lost by staying home with the kids.

So marriage roles become a zero-sum game where one person's gain is automatically another person's loss. Relationships become about getting my needs met rather than serving, which is actually the foundation of a covenant relationship. When we approach marriage through the lens of "What am I losing? What power am I giving up? What freedoms am I sacrificing?" then, of course, someone's going to lose.

But that's not biblical thinking at all.

Submit One to Another

The Apostle Paul wrote to the church in Ephesus: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour."

So let's tackle this head-on.

Yes, the Bible talks about headship.

Yes, it talks about submission.

But there are some crucial things to notice before we jump to "patriarchy at work" conclusions. Not that men haven't abused these verses, because they absolutely have, and shame on anyone who's taken the Bible out of context to do so.

Notice what the verse says first: submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. These instructions were written in the context of mutual submission. Men submit to your wife, and wives submit to your husband. Mutual submission.

What does submit mean? It doesn't mean passively giving up all your rights and becoming a doormat. It means to willingly yield, to give way, to serve one another out of reverence for Christ. It's the exact opposite of asking "What am I getting out of this?" Submission is actively seeking the good of the other person, putting their needs ahead of your own, relating with humility, respect, and service. Not demanding your own rights, but being willing to put them aside for your spouse, because your ultimate motivation is honouring Christ.

Headship Isn't a Crown of Gold

In this context of mutual submission, Paul specifically instructs wives to submit to their own husbands, not to someone else's. Not men. There's a big difference. This verse is in the context of marriage, not life in general. And it's also in the context of mutual submission. Both points are really important.

Then comes the bit that makes people uncomfortable: "For the husband is the head of the wife."

Husbands, pay attention here. Paul's point isn't about power. It's not about hierarchy or unilateral authority. You cannot talk about headship without referencing the entire verse: "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church."

Headship is about modelling Christ in your marriage.

Biblical headship isn't about wearing a crown of gold. It's about wearing a crown of thorns. Christ's headship over the church wasn't about dominance or control, nor was it about getting his own way. It was about grace and sacrifice. Jesus literally sacrificed everything, his life, for the sake of the church's flourishing and well-being.

That's what headship is all about.

Paul presses this point home: "Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." That's not dominance. That's dying to self. That's not about getting your needs met. That's about ensuring your wife's needs are met, even at a cost to yourself.

Headship is not about controlling your wife. It never has been. It's not about telling her what she can and can't do, what she can and can't wear, who she can and can't see. If you do that, stop it. It's not good.

Biblical headship is about modelling serving first and foremost. In the kingdom of God, Jesus told us that leadership is based on serving. You want to be a leader? You have to be a servant to all. That's the word of God. Men, you have to give yourself up for your wife. That is a very high calling.

How Radical Was This?

When Paul wrote this in the Greco-Roman world, where men dominated and women were treated like second-class citizens, this was radically counter-cultural. Bringing women into an environment of mutual submission, calling men to lay their lives down for their wives? Revolutionary.

And it's still radically counter-cultural today.

We've been hesitant to use biblical terms like headship and submission due to the cultural narratives at play. We live in an era when any discussion of authority or hierarchy is suspect, where submission is perceived as weakness or oppression. But the problem isn't the words themselves. It's the cultural baggage we've attached to them.

We've allowed secular culture to define these terms instead of letting God define them through scripture. Biblical submission isn't about becoming a doormat or losing your voice; it's about embracing a deeper understanding of God's will. It's about both spouses asking the fundamental question: How can I put you first?

Real Life Examples

Look at Sarah in the Old Testament. She submits to Abraham, but she's also trusted to run entire aspects of their household and life. She has influence, voice, responsibilities and authority in her own right.

The woman in Proverbs 31, the wife of noble character. She's hardly sitting quietly in the corner waiting for instructions. She's buying fields, running businesses, managing staff, and making decisions. And she does it all in partnership with a husband in a way that honours their relationship and shared calling.

At the Edmundson house, there are two swing seats in the back garden positioned opposite each other. One seat faces the garden with a nice view. The other faces the house with a rather average view of bricks. Sharon and Matt often sit in these swings to catch up and pray together.

Whoever gets outside first has deliberately sat in the seat facing the house, so the other person gets the nicer view. It's a small thing where they're both trying to ensure the other person gets the better deal.

This is what it's all about. It's not about hierarchy or who's in charge. It's not about tallies or "it's my turn because you sat in that seat last time." It's about both of them competing to put the other person first. Both are looking for ways to serve. Both are seeking the other's comfort and happiness.

What the Data Shows

When couples do this, when both spouses focus on serving rather than getting, marital satisfaction increases dramatically. God's plan works.

Couples who serve together, whether volunteering, helping others, or simply prioritising each other's needs, have significantly higher relationship quality. When husbands actively serve and sacrifice for their wives, studies show that their wives experience significantly higher levels of relationship satisfaction. When wives respect and support their husbands, husbands tend to become more loving and self-sacrificing.

It creates this beautiful upward spiral where service generates service, love creates love, and respect builds respect. In marriage, you don't have to focus on what you're not getting. Because when you give, what you get increases. That upward circle just keeps going. You sow, you reap.

Understanding Love Languages

There is often a mismatch between how we communicate love and how our spouse wants to receive it. Gary Chapman's book, The Five Love Languages, argues that most people naturally give love in the way they prefer to receive it. If you have a different love language to your spouse, that can lead to misunderstanding.

For example, a husband may express love by performing acts of service, such as doing DIY tasks. But if his wife's primary language is words of affirmation, there's a mismatch. He's doing acts of service, but she receives love through verbal expressions of affection. If he only focuses on acts of service, she may still feel unloved because what she wants are words of affirmation. And he may feel unappreciated if his actions go unnoticed.

According to Chapman, if she starts affirming him verbally and he continues to perform acts of service, but adds expressions and appreciations with words, both will feel more loved and connected.

Understanding your spouse takes effort. It's not automatic. They didn't teach this at school. It takes intentionality, humility, and submission because you have to learn a different way to communicate love better to your spouse. And it starts with both spouses embracing their God-given roles, not as restrictions or limitations, but as the path to the brilliant, God-designed marriage He wants.

Conversation Street Insights

How did we get to the point where husbands wanted to dominate their wives?

There's something inherent in men that drives them to win and to lead. Put a bunch of men together, and they'll find something and turn it into a game with rules where somebody wins. There's this desire to lead which, when taken out of the boundaries God imposes on leadership, becomes a thirst for power.

Values like achievement and competitiveness aren't inherently wrong. But without Christ at the centre, they quickly get distorted. Men are generally stronger physically, and when men see words like "headship" and take that to mean what they want it to mean, taking things out of context, even though Paul explicitly talks about this as "Christ is the head of the church" and "love your wives," that distortion happens rapidly.

How do you make decisions when husband and wife disagree?

It depends on the level of decision. Some disagreements are about matters of great importance, while others are less so. If one person feels much more strongly than the other about something not hugely important, sometimes the answer is simply: "You care about this more than I do. Even though I don't agree, go for it."

For bigger decisions, the approach is consistent: pray about it (what does God say?). Talk it through and listen to each other; don't make rash decisions. If you still can't figure it out, seek outside counsel from people you know, like, and trust, especially church leaders.

The husband pulling out the "I'm head of the house" trump card shouldn't be how decisions are made.

What if one spouse is a Christian and the other isn't?

First Peter chapter three addresses this specifically. Peter discusses wives being subject to their husbands, so that "even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see your respectful and pure conduct."

The story of Polly and Smith Wigglesworth illustrates this beautifully. When Smith was losing his faith and forbade Polly from going to church, claiming to be "master of this house," Polly responded: "You are not my master. Jesus is my master." She went to church. Smith locked her out. She slept on the doorstep.

In the morning, when Smith opened the door and Polly fell into the kitchen, what did she do? She stood up, brushed herself down, didn't say a word about it, and made Smith breakfast. It was that act of winning him over through respectful conduct that brought him back to Christ and kick-started one of the world's most incredible healing ministries.

If you have an unbelieving spouse, let your conduct win them over.

How do you respond to people who think biblical marriage is outdated?

For Matt and Sharon, after 27 years of marriage, the proof is in the eating. People who initially didn't understand have come back to say, "You and Sharon are one of the few couples we can look to and see what a good marriage looks like." That speaks volumes.

It's also worth asking questions: Why do you think that? What do you mean by outdated? What's old-fashioned about what we're doing? Often, people carry opinions they don't really understand. When you drill down naturally, the discussion quickly runs out of steam because, fundamentally, if the Bible is being made the enemy, we need to stop and ask if we've misunderstood something.

The Bible wasn't written to us. It was written for us. We need to understand who it was written to and the culture in which it was written. An outcry saying biblical teaching keeps women oppressed misses the point. What keeps women oppressed is a false understanding of that teaching, not the teaching itself. When we understand it properly, it's insanely freeing.

Is it too late to change if you've been doing things differently?

It's never too late to change. There are many reasons why some people didn't get good pre-marriage advice or find themselves 20 years into marriage in a sticky patch, wondering what God really says. It's never too late to ask God and look at it afresh.

We've seen way too many marriages get restored. Marriages a few years old where God gets involved and does something amazing. Marriages that have been on the rocks for 20, 30, 40 years, where God restores and does incredible stuff. No one's ever too old, and it's never too late for God and the gospel.

Nobody Loses, Everybody Wins

If we look back at that Instagram poster of the 1950s housewife ideology, we could blame it for a whole bunch of things wrong in the world today. But we've confused stereotypes with biblical truth. In rejecting the stereotype, have we thrown out God's good design for marriage?

Biblical marriage isn't about returning to some imagined golden age of the 1950s. It's about discovering God's original design for marriage. Think about Adam and Eve, married before the fall. Two people in a perfect complementary partnership, each seeking the other's well-being, both reflecting the incredible love story between Christ and his church.

That's what marriage is all about.

The question isn't whether biblical roles are outdated or need to be modernised or apologised for. The question is: are we ready to discover the freedom that comes when she leads in her calling and he follows God's design for servant leadership?

Because when that happens, when both spouses embrace their roles as opportunities to serve rather than restrictions to break free from, nobody loses and everybody wins. Your marriage becomes a living picture of the gospel itself.

What Now?

If you're reading this and thinking about your own marriage, here are some practical steps:

Focus on you, not your spouse. Don't send this article to your partner with a note saying, "you should read this." Let God change your spouse while you focus on what you can do differently.

Ask the fundamental question daily: How can I put my spouse first today? What would serving them look like in this moment?

Learn your spouse's love language. Read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman and discover how your spouse best receives love. Then intentionally practice that language.

Pray together. Even if it's just a few minutes, praying together keeps Christ at the centre of your marriage and reminds you both who you're ultimately serving.

Seek wisdom from good friends and church leaders. Don't navigate marriage challenges alone. Surround yourself with people who can speak truth and wisdom into your relationship.

Remember: the word of God brings conviction, but not condemnation. Conviction shows us a better way forward. Condemnation just makes us feel rubbish about where we've been. Today is about moving forward, not dwelling on the past.

Wherever you find yourself relationally, God has something for you. If you're married and things are going well, understanding these principles might help you see why. If you're married and struggling, this offers hope for a better future. If you're single, this gives vision for what to look for and build towards. If you're divorced, this isn't condemnation but understanding of where things went wrong and what healing could look like.

Biblical marriage isn't about someone winning and someone losing. It's about mutual submission, servant leadership, and both spouses asking "How can I put you first?" When that happens, marriage becomes what God always intended: a beautiful picture of Christ's love for his church, lived out in real life by real people who are learning to love like Jesus.

And that's when nobody loses, and everybody wins.

# When She Leads and He Follows (Biblical Marriage Roles)
[00:00:00]
## Intro
Matt Edmundson: My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your first time or whether you've been part of our journey since the beginning, it's brilliant to be with you. We are a community of people figuring out what it means to follow Jesus in real life, not the polished, perfect version, but you know, the messy, genuine, brilliant reality of this whole thing called Christianity.
So let me give you a little roadmap of what's gonna be happening over the next hour. We'll have a talk last about 20 minutes looking at the topic of relationships, which is the section of our series becoming whole, that we are looking at exploring how Christ makes us whole across every domain of life.
After the talk, we've got Conversation Streets. Oh yes. This is where we dig into what you've just heard, and you get to be part of that discussion. [00:01:00] So if you're with us live, jump into the comments, share your questions, your thoughts, and your stories. And of course, if you are watching on Catchup or listening to the podcast, then thanks for being part of the Crowd too.
Right. Let's meet your hosts and let's get started.
## Welcome
Sharon Edmundson: Well, hello everybody and welcome to Crowd Church. I'm Sharon, and I'm hosting tonight, along with the fabulous Jan. Hi everyone.
Jan Burch: Good evening.
Sharon Edmundson: Uh, um, I hope you appreciate that me and Jan have color coordinated tonight. Yeah. You'll notice our speaker did not get that memo.
But anyway, um, so at Crowd Church, uh, a long, long time ago we started a series on biblical wholeness and we've already covered spirit, soul, and body. And we are currently in a, um, a section of this about relationship wholeness. And last week, my lovely husband Matt, started us off talking about marriage and Jan, what have we got tonight?
Jan Burch: Yeah. [00:02:00] Um, Matt is continuing, um, the topic on marriage, but we're talking about the different roles, um, within marriage.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. So quite controversial, uh, contentious, but he kind of loves all that. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah. Do, uh. Yeah, comment in the comments. Um, tell us your thoughts, um, where you are in the world. Um, yeah, join in any thoughts, questions.
We'd love to hear from you and get a bit of that interaction going. Mm-hmm. But for now, we will jump straight into the talk. So over to Matt.
## Talk - When She Leads and He Follows (Biblical Marriage Roles)
Matt Edmundson: Well, good evening. Welcome Crowd, Church. Good to be with you. And yes, I did not get the memo. Uh, I'm very sorry ladies, uh, that I did not get the memo and I've not participated in the blue tops.
Uh, we should maybe do the communication one.
Anyway, let's jump into this. Uh, as they said, we're talking part two of marriage Now. Have you ever [00:03:00] seen right, this kind of poster floating around? Uh, it's the 1950s housewife. In the fluffy dress and the apron standing next to her Hoover, with that perfect smile, beaming, like she's just discovered that the secret of eternal happiness is actually found in household appliances.
We've all seen them right now. What do you think, right when you see something like this? Um, I tend to see these kind of things these days on Instagram, you know, and, and they, they come with all kinds of captions attached to them, you know, from the tra wives to the patriarchy, everything. But one thing that it does make me think about, and that is weather.
As Christians, we have connected stereotypes like this to biblical teaching about marriage. Have we taken that idea from the 1950s and decided that actually that's what. Christian marriage is all [00:04:00] about because if we label that stereotype as something like it's old fashioned or even something that is wrong, or dare I say it, potentially harmful, and if that's, if that stereotype is something that we're ashamed of, then we subconsciously do the same thing to the biblical teacher and we've connected to it right.
But what the Bible teaches us about marriage and specifically our roles in marriage isn't about keeping women in pennies or men on pedestals far from it in fact. And as you would expect this being church. Um, you know, I think actually that what the Bible talks about is actually the most liberating thing.
For your marriage to understand biblical roles in marriage, which is what we're gonna look at tonight here on Crowd. And if you'd like, if, like Sharon said, if you're joining us live, say hi. In the comments, write your questions. If you have any questions as we go through, we would love to answer them. It is [00:05:00] obviously worth saying that wherever you find yourself relationally, I believe that God has got something for you tonight.
So if you are married and things are going well. Excellent. This might help you to understand why. Of course, if you're married and you are struggling, I think this could actually offer your marriage, uh, some hope, you know, a hope for something better if you're single. Um, it gives you a vision, I think, of what you can look for and build towards in marriage.
If you're divorced, then this is definitely not about condemnation, uh, on any kind of level, but understanding may be where things went wrong, uh, and what healing could potentially look like. And of course, you might be in a relationship or maybe you might be like my son who's just gone and got engaged.
Congratulations, Joss. Uh, this is about discovering God's design before you make it official, right? Because here's the thing. An important truth to remember as we get into this, I think the word of God can bring [00:06:00] conviction, but I don't think it brings condemnation. So conviction shows us a better way forward.
Condemnation just makes us feel well, just makes us feel a little bit, Pence, a bit rubbish about where we've been, and today is about moving forward. It's not about beating ourselves up for the past. So with that caveat over, let's jump into it and address the elephant in the room and ask ourselves the question.
Um. Why do we struggle so much with this idea of biblical roles? Why do we find it such a hard question to answer? Right? It's a really interesting question, isn't it? Why do we struggle with this? Why do we struggle with this as Christians, uh, and why do we struggle with it as maybe people outside of the church?
Now, when Sharon and I started family planning, which I think is a really great phrase for, to describe what is actually [00:07:00] going on, uh, family planning, uh, when we decided that we would start a family, well, Sharon would, was gonna stop working okay, uh, and stay at home with the kids full time. Now there are a number of reasons we made that decision primarily because right.
Uh, we felt God was leading us there, which gave us the faith to embark on that journey. Also, it was something Sharon actually wanted to do, even though none of her work mates were doing it. And it would actually be quite difficult for us to do, especially 'cause Sharon was actually earning more money than me at the time.
So we were given up a key income, uh, but we felt God was in it and that it would be an adventure and that we could believe God in that. Now, people's responses, uh, to that decision, though I we're interesting. Um, most people were just like, that's brilliant. That's wonderful. It's great. Go for it. See how you get on.
Let us know if we can help. Some people responded with, well, is that a bit [00:08:00] outdated? Is that a bit old fashioned? You know, and you can see people sort of wonder, um, whether Sharon was being held back from a career, whether this was somehow my decision imposed on her rather than something she had chosen.
Now to clarify here at the start, I personally do not think that it says in the Bible that women should stay at home, uh, and that men should go to work. You know, I just, that's not what I think. I know couples where the guy stays at home with the kids and the wife works, and that's great. Um, but also it's important to recognize that we live in a society where two incomes are often essential, right?
I mean, super essential. Um, and I believe that God leads each family to what's best for that family. I really do. So I don't think. To clarify, the Tread wife idea is what the Bible explicitly teaches as the only way forward for Christians. [00:09:00] But I do think as Christians, like I say, we get uncomfortable about this conversation.
We almost feel like we have to apologize for the idea of biblical roles in marriage. But why? And why do progressives look at them with disdain? And I think the reason lies in the idea, or maybe even the assumption that someone fundamentally has to lose, that Sharon somehow lost in staying at home with the kids.
So marriage roles then become a zero sum game where one person's gain is automatically another person's loss. And in that instance, relationships become about getting my needs met rather than serving, which is the foundation of the. The covenant relationship we started to look at last week, and if you've not heard that, it was a good talk.
Even if I do say so myself, do go check that out. Now when we approach marriage, then through this, through this lens of what am I losing? What [00:10:00] power am I giving up? Um, what freedoms am I sacrificing? Then of course someone's going to lose. But I don't think that is biblical. I don't think it's biblical thinking at all.
And in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul, Saint Paul, the aged Paul, uh, who wrote quite a few of the letters in the, in the New Testament, he put it this way, went right into the church in Ephesus. He said, uh, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body and is himself its Savior. Okay, so let's tackle then some of these things. Head on. Yes, the Bible talks about headship and yes, it talks about submission. But there are some really, really [00:11:00] crucial things to note down before we go down the, you know, the patriarchy at work thinking, which is not to say that men have abused these verses because they absolutely have.
And I think shame on you if you have, if you've taken the Bible out of context. Um, but we do need to address 'em and we do need to talk about them. So let's jump into what they actually mean. Now at the start of that verse, the first sentence that we read out, uh, notice what it says. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Okay, so these verses, these instructions, uh, from Paul were written, uh, in this place of what we would call mutual submission. This idea of submitting one to another mutual submission, men submit to your wife, uh, and wives submit to your husband mutual submission, submit one to another. So what does submit mean?[00:12:00]
As well as just being a, you know, a button on an HTML form on a website. Send my form off. Uh, what it does, what it doesn't mean is passively giving up all of your rights and becoming a doormat, right? That's not what it means, but what it does mean is to willingly yield, to give way, as we would say in England, uh, and to serve one another out of reverence for Christ.
So in other words, it is the exact opposite of asking the question, what am I getting out of this? Right? Because submission is actively seeking the good of the other person, the good of your spouse, putting their needs ahead of your own, and relating with humility, with respect, and with service. Not demanding of your own rights, but being willing to put them aside for the sake of your spouse, because your ultimate motivation is obviously.
Honoring [00:13:00] Christ. That's the goal in your marriage. So in this area of mutual submission, Paul now specifically talks to wives and he says, wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. So what's he talking about here? Well, first and foremost, he starts off with your own husband, not somebody else's, right?
Uh, and not men. There's a big difference. Submit to your husband is not submit to men. This verse is in the context of marriage and not life generally, but it's also in the context of mutual submission, and both are really, really important points. As we read on it says, uh, for the husband is the head. Of the wife.
So we're getting in deep now, aren't we? So husbands, I really want you to pay attention here because I don't think Paul's point is about power. It's not about hierarchy or some kind of [00:14:00] unilateral authority. I don't think it's that in the slightest. You cannot, you cannot talk about headship without referencing the entire verse.
Okay? Um, so the entire verse reads for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church. Okay, so Headship Men is about you modeling Christ in your marriage. Biblical headship is then, how can I put this? It's not about wearing a crown of gold, it's about wearing a crown of thorns.
Christ's headship over the church was not about dominance, it was not about control, but it was a, it, it, wait. It wasn't about getting his own way, was it? But it was about grace and it was about sacrifice. And Jesus literally sacrificed everything, his life for the sake [00:15:00] of the church and for the church's flourishing and for the church's wellbeing.
And that is what headship is all about. And just to really press this point home, Paul goes on to clarify for as men, because we often need clarification over these points. Uh, husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. So that's not dominance, right? That's like a dying to self.
That's a, that's not about getting your needs met, that's about ensuring somebody else's needs, your wife needs are met, even if that's at a cost to yourself. So headship is not about controlling your wife. It never has been. It's not about you telling her what she can and can't do, or what she can and can't wear, or who she can and can't see.
And if you do that, stop it. It's not good. [00:16:00] Biblical headship is about modeling serving first and foremost, because in the kingdom of God, right? Jesus told us, leadership is based on serving. You wanna be a leader, you have to be servant to all. That is the word of God, right? So men, you have to give yourself up for your wife, and that is a very, very high calling.
And so when you look at this through that lens, right? When you, when you, when you understand this through that lens, you get to understand that when Paul wrote this, how radically counter-cultural in a sort of Greco-Roman world where men dominated and women were treated like second class citizens, how radical this was, how countercultural it was to bring women into this environment of mutual submission and for men to lay their lives down for her.
And I still think it is very, very radically [00:17:00] countercultural today. And I do wonder then if we've been afraid to use biblical terms like headship and submission, because then of some cultural narrative, which is at play. So we live in a time when any talk of authority or any talk of hierarchy, well, it's a suspect, isn't it?
Where submission is seen as weakness maybe, or oppression. We don't like it. We don't wanna talk about it. But the problem isn't the words themselves, is it? It's more the cultural baggage that we've attached to them. Just food for thought. I think we've allowed secular culture to define these terms and these ideas for is instead of letting God define 'em through scripture.
So biblical submission isn't about becoming a doormat. It is not about losing your voice. It is about both spouses, the husband and the wife asking the most fundamental question. How can I [00:18:00] put you first? It's about voluntary and mutual service that flows from love and respect and not from fear or coercion.
Which to me sounds amazing. Like that's how marriage should actually be if we could get that working, you know, which is not always easy to do when you're dealing with selfish people like me. But you look at Sarah, right? She submits to Abraham. So in the Old Testament, the patriarch Abraham married to Sarah, she submits, but she's also trusted to run entire aspects of their household and their life.
She has influence, she has a voice, she has responsibilities and authority in her own rights. If you look at the woman in Proverbs 31, which is a chapter in the Old Testament, uh, that we often referred to as, you know, the, what do they call the, the wife of good character, the wife of good character, the wife of Noble character, depending on the translation.
Um, well, she's hardly sitting quietly in the corner waiting for [00:19:00] instructions from a fellow, let me tell you. She's buying field, she's running businesses, she's managing staff, she's making decisions, and she does it all in partnership. With a husband in a way that honors their relationship and their shared calling.
You know, at our house, there are two swing seats in our back garden positioned sort of opposite each other. So the two swings are made during COVID and you can sit and you in one seat and you can look at the other person, uh, in the other seat and just chat away. And it's great, you know, how, how these two seats face each other, but one seat faces out towards the garden, so you get the nice view of the garden.
The other seat faces the house. And so you get this rather average view of bricks. It's not as quite as enticing really. And Sharon and I will often sit in these swings, right? We, we like to catch up, pray together. Um, it's our little spot. And lately it seems that whoever gets outside first has deliberately decided to sit in the [00:20:00] seat facing the house.
So the other person gets the nicer view. And it's a small thing where we're both trying to ensure the other person gets the better deal. And I think this is, this is just a real suite example, uh, of what this is all about. It's not about hierarchy or who's in charge. It's not about tallies or it's my turn 'cause you sat in that seat last time.
It's about both of us competing to put the other person first. Both of us looking for ways to serve both of us, seeking the other's comfort and happiness. And so we know from the data that when we do this, right, when both spouses focus on serving rather than getting, well, guess what? It's not rocket science, but the satisfaction and marital satisfaction increases and it increases dramatically.
God's plan works, right? I mean, what a surprise. Couples who serve together, whether that's [00:21:00] volunteering, helping others, or simply just prioritizing each other's needs, have significantly higher relationship quality. Submit one to another. Husbands, love your wife as Christ loves the church, and take that mandate seriously, because when you do, when you actively serve and sacrifice men for your wife, guess what?
All the studies show that your wife will have a much higher relationship satisfaction, which is not a surprise, is it? And when wives respect and support their husbands, guess what? They become more loving. They become more self-sacrificial, and it creates this sort of beautiful upward spiral where service generates service and love.
Creates love and respect, builds respect. Which is why in marriage, I don't have to focus on what I'm not getting or what I am getting. Because when I give, what I get [00:22:00] increases that upward circle. It just keeps going. You sow, you reap. But yeah, I mean, you know, let's be real. I have needs in our marriage. Of course I do.
But guess what? God's model works for getting those needs met. It's all about what you give, right? And it's not about fighting for them, but it's about sowing and then reaping Now. I do appreciate. With all of that said, all very high level. There is often in my experience, um, a mismatch between how we communicate love, or how we give love, and how our spouse wants to receive it, right?
Um, you just read the book of Song of Solomon, you'll see what that's all about. You can also read a book called The Five Languages of Love. And if you haven't read either the book of Song Solomon or the Five Languages of Love, I would recommend that you do read both. Now, the author of The Five Languages of Love, uh, Gary Chapman [00:23:00] argues that most people naturally give love the way they prefer to receive it.
Okay, but. If you have, if you are in a relationship where you, you have a different love language to your spouse, that can lead to misunderstanding. And so the solution is to discover and intentionally practice the love language most meaningful to your spouse. So a classic example would involve a husband, for example, who expresses love by doing acts of service like DIY.
But if his wife's primary language of love is words of affirmation, we've got a bit of a mismatch. He's doing acts of service, but she receives love through words of affirmation. So if he only focuses on acts of service. There's a good chance her wife may still feel unloved because what she wants is that verbal expression of love.
And of course, he may feel unre, unappreciated if his [00:24:00] actions go unnoticed, right? Uh, and so according to Gary Chapman, if she starts affirming him verbally, and he continues acts of service, but adds into that express, um, sort of expressions and appreciations, uh, with words, both will feel more loved and both will feel more connected.
But understanding your spouse takes effort, right? It's not automatic. They didn't teach me this at school. They just, they should have done maybe, but they didn't, right? Um, it takes effort. It takes intentionality, it takes humility, it takes submission because you have to learn a different way to communicate love better to your spouse, right?
And it starts with both spouses embracing their God-given roles, not as some kind of restriction or limitation, but I think as the path to the sort of brilliant God design marriage that he wants. [00:25:00] So if we look back at that Instagram poster, right, the 1950s housewife ideology, which you could blame for, you know, a whole bunch of things that are wrong in the world today, which I think is what we've done as culture.
But if we understand that we've confused stereotypes with biblical truth and in rejecting the stereotype, we should ask, have we thrown out God's good design for marriage? So biblical marriage isn't about returning, and let me be super clear, biblical marriage is not about returning to some imagined golden age of the 1950s, right?
But it is about discovering God's original design. For marriage, right? You think about Adam and Eve. Man, those two, right? They were married before the fall. That is like crazy old fashioned. I mean, it's super old fashioned. Two people in perfect complimentary partnership, each seeking the other's [00:26:00] wellbeing and both reflecting the incredible love story between Christ and his church.
That's what marriage is all about. So the question I don't think is whether biblical marriage, uh, biblical roles are outdated or whether they need to be modernized in some way, or whether they need to be apologized for. I think the question is more, are we ready to discover the freedom that I think comes when she leads in her calling and he follows God's design for servant leadership.
Because when that happens, when both spouses embrace their roles as opportunities to serve rather than restrictions to enjoy, you know, like chains to break free from, nobody loses and everybody. Wins and your marriage becomes a living picture of the gospel itself. So that's it. Back to you ladies.
## Conversation Street
Sharon Edmundson: Wow. Oh, thanks for that babe.
Um, we've been married [00:27:00] 27 years, but it's still fabulous just to hear like biblical truth and uh, yeah, it just makes me kind of go, oh, wonder what reactions, uh, you've had listening. Um, which point, I'm gonna take a moment just to say hi to everyone in the comment. So we've got aid and Heather, MK. Jody, welcome.
We've also got me. Hello. Me. Yeah. So, um, as usual, so many points we could pick up on. Yeah, I think, um, I just wanna start really, I've got a question. So when Matt's explaining to do with headship and submission here, it gives a very different picture to what The abused version of it. Yeah. But from, from those verses, it looks so clear that it's not about dominance.
So I'm, I'm just wondering how did we get to the point where people, like husbands especially, just wanted to dominate their wives? Any, any ideas on that? You two?
Jan Burch: I I think one of the things that, that, uh, [00:28:00] came out to me was Matt said it takes humility and it takes patience. It's, it's something that you have to make a real effort, um, to understand one another.
And, um, so I think in the busyness of the world now, in our society and our culture, I think people have less and less time or, you know, that that's an excuse in one sense. But I think people would say, I haven't got time to, you know, we're like, ships that pass in the night or whatever. So I think it's.
What Matt said about intentionality, about trying to understand each other. I think it's an effort. It doesn't just happen overnight. Yeah.
Sharon Edmundson: Matt, being a man, what, why would you say that in the past, men have had a, or some men, not all men have had a tendency to try and [00:29:00] dominate their wives?
Matt Edmundson: Uh, this is a very deep question, isn't it?
I think, I think in some respects, um, we start to look at the biblical role of men in this, right? So, um, there is inherent in men that desire to, um, win. To, to Do, you know what I mean? I'm, I am appreciate, I'm stereotyping here, but if you put, put a bunch of men together in deepest, darkest Africa, they're gonna find something and turn it into a game and there'll be rules and somebody wins, right?
Yeah. And you'll come back a few months later and somebody will be in charge. There's something about this desire to lead, um, which is in men that I think when taken out of context, and I think when taken out of the, the boundaries that God imposes on that leadership. So you, you take men out of the biblical narrative.
Well, that desire to lead becomes a thirst for power [00:30:00] in many ways. And I think it's a fine line, isn't it? So, um, you wouldn't associate, for example, values like hustle and achievement with a church. Right. It, you would associate values like community and respect and humility and serving, um, and being an entrepreneur myself, then I quite like things like achievement.
I am slightly competitive and I think this is okay. I think this way God made me. But I can see how if you don't have Christ at the center, how that quickly gets distorted. Right. And so because of that, because men are on the whole, not always, but on the whole stronger. Um, and because men on the whole see words like headship and take that to mean what they want it to mean, right?
And take things outta context, even though Paul explicitly talks [00:31:00] about this as Christ is the head of the church and love your wives. He said it twice. I mean, that's, you know, that says something men, doesn't it? Um. I think there's something in that. And I think, um, I think, like I say, long answer to your question, part of it is God's, um, creation in man, but outside of God's boundaries, I think that gets distorted quite rapidly.
Mm-hmm.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. Heather's put a comment in his saying it's interest, an interesting view because Paul has taken hammering within feminism as being the arch misogynist. Um, and this has been a nice eyeopener. Yeah. I think sometimes we, um, we don't always understand the culture behind or we don't look at the whole picture.
And then if you do just take little snippets here and there and don't understand the cultural background, it's quite easy to get the wrong idea, I think. Yeah. Um, I really liked what you said about headship being about wearing a crown, not wearing a crown of gold, but wearing a crown of [00:32:00] thorns. So Jan, I've got, I wonder what have you got thoughts on?
Um. So he, obviously Matt said about mutual submission at the beginning, but then it talks about wife submitting. Um, but in the context of how easy do you think it is to submit to someone who's wearing a crown of gold as opposed to a crown of thorns?
Jan Burch: I think it would be very different. Um, yeah, I mean, just, just someone almost demanding, you know, um, submission because of who he is or status, you know, automatically is, especially in Liverpool. I don't think it would go down very well. I think most women would, uh, knock it off his head very quickly. But, um, in seriousness, yeah, obviously you're gonna, the more humble, um, someone is a man is, you know, in a [00:33:00] relationship in a marriage, then you, you're gonna want to.
Um, submit. You are gonna want to meet him halfway. Whereas, you know, when someone's lording it over you literally, it's provokes a different response.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. It really gets you back up, doesn't it? Yeah. It makes you kind of wanna do the opposite. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The, the story has come to mind of, um, I'm gonna get my stories mixed up now, but, um, the woman who brought perfume to Jesus and poured it on his feet and then like, washed his feet with her tears and like this just act of love and I, I guess submission in a sense in that she was at his feet and they weren't married.
So we're not talking about marriage here, but, um, I think it's just that whole thing of Jesus is our model and he. He's so servant hearted. He's not a pushover by any means. No. He was very good at calling people out where they needed it, [00:34:00] but with people who needed that. Um, you know, that nurturing, that, that gentleness, that that's the response that he, you know, brought out of this woman.
And I, I kind of feel like that the crown of thorns, you know, if a husband's wearing that, that gives, that, that kind of, maybe not quite that extreme, but, um, I've not washed your feet with my hairs. Have I, um, washed your feet with my tears or dried it with my hair?
Matt Edmundson: Uh, and long may that continue,
let's not go there. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was an interesting comment though from, um, from Heather about the association of Paul and feminism and how, um, with feminism, and don't get me wrong, I, pardon me, would say that I'm a feminist, but I think when feminism and when the patriarchy. Create an enemy. If that enemy is poor or the enemy is biblical teaching, I think you have to stop and ask the question, why?
[00:35:00] So why are we, why is, why are we making the Bible the enemy here? And this comes back to this fear that if I do this, I'm losing some things, so therefore I have to fight for it. And therefore, to fight, I have to have an enemy. Right. And I just think as a rule of thumb, if you trace some of these things back, if the enemy is the Bible, we have to stop and go, I wonder if we've misunderstood something here.
Right? Because when, when we, and I've heard it, I've heard all the arguments, you know, um, around this, and I get it and I understand it, but the Bible wasn't written. To us. It was written for us, but it wasn't written to us. Yeah. And we have to understand who it was written to in the culture. And so on one hand you have an outcry saying this is keeping women oppressed, this teaching.
I would say what's keeping women oppressed is the false understanding of that teaching, not the teaching itself. Absolutely. And I think [00:36:00] actually when we understand the teaching, it is insanely freeing for women at that point in time. And even today, I still think so, but I think, especially, like I say in that Greco Roman world, it's, it's insanely freeing this idea.
I mean, Paul doesn't use the language obviously of wearing a crown of thorns versus a crown of gold. We use that analogy of, of Christ, don't we? That he didn't come and rule with a rod and became, he came to serve and he and he took on the crown of thorns. And I think, I think actually that's what Paul's getting to, which.
There's no argument then again. Well, I mean, you could argue again, did you, maybe you don't want to go like that. I dunno. But I, I can't understand why not.
Sharon Edmundson: It's reminded me of another passage that I think often gets misinterpreted and used in a wrong way. And that's where Eve is created for Adam as a helper for him.
And we've talked about this on Crowd before, haven't we? A few times, but, um, I think that's a, a, the helper [00:37:00] word has traditionally been seen as she's subservient. Like she's not that capable. She's like mommy's little helper kind of scenario. But actually the word helper there is the same one that is used of God help his people, as in it's somebody who has, um, some characteristics, some power that he is able to use to help someone who doesn't have that.
Um, and how actually women are created with things that men need, as in like we, and, and the other way around that. Together. We are like a representation of God on Earth. We're not God, but we are here as his rep representatives and that we need each other, whether that's in marriage or society as a whole, and for us not to, oh, I think in society now we can get, um, polls apart where like men are looked down on or we've got the extremes, haven't we?
Where men are idolized or men are [00:38:00] looked down or on as the, the sole source of evil in the world. And the Bible has neither of those. It's like actually we are created to work together that we need each other. It's the same in society. It's the same within marriage. And that's more beautiful, I think.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Um, I agree. Uh, a hundred percent. Um, I was, I've been talking to a couple of people over the last week who've, um, a single parents and, um. You know, it's, it's very, very difficult. Um, or, you know, a single parent could be male on his own or it could be a female. Um, and it's very difficult being all things to your children, um, without the other, your partner being there.
And, you know, physically it's harder. Emotionally it's harder. And, um, I just [00:39:00] think it's a similar thing. You know, society is used to single parents and, you know, I just think, I think you all deserve an absolute medal. Um, but what I'm trying to say is, you know, we can recognize that that's a struggle.
Someone doing it on their own, but. This shows how God intends family or marriage. Really it's two people, um, helping each other. So it's not all on the woman to do everything, nor is it the man's responsibility to do everything. So we work as a team. How much easier is that? You know, that's how it should be.
And, and I'm not, you know, I may have said that in a confusing way. All I'm saying is single parents. That was an example of someone doing it all, or you know, I'm sure that they sometimes wish that [00:40:00] someone was there to help.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. And we're gonna get onto, um, parenthood in a few weeks, I think, um, looking at fatherhood and motherhood.
Um, yeah. So we'll pick up on Yeah, yeah, yeah. Threads of that again. Um. Another just, um, switching tracks slightly. Another point that you said it in the talk was that, um, some people assume that having marriage roles means that somebody has to lose. Um, yeah. Again, any thoughts on that?
Jan Burch: Again, I, I totally, totally understand that.
Um, you know, in our house it's the, it's my husband who takes the bins out every week, and I, but I tend to, you know, do the hoovering and polishing and whatever, and I, in one sense, I think he's, he's lost there because I hate taking the bins out. Um, but that when you divide things up and that's your role and that's, you know, [00:41:00] the woman's role, I think, um, if you view it like that, and he's done less than me or she's done less than me this week or whatever, but I just think, um.
It's, it's something unique to each couple that you need to talk about, um, to each other. You know, if, if she loves taking the bins out, great. And if he loves cooking, great. You know? Yeah. It's what works for you as a, as a couple.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. Ellis has put, I think it's interesting how the wives submit technically applies to men as well as we're part of the church, which is the bride of Christ.
Interesting thought I'd not considered that one, but I guess that's where the mutual submission comes in. Yeah. Interesting. Like that. Um, okay. So just wanna switch to kind of a more practical level. So how do you make decisions when. Say if the husband and wife disagree, how do decisions get made? [00:42:00] Is it a case of he pulls out the Trump card of like, I'm head of the house or what?
Matt Edmundson: That has never worked for me. I just, I just, how we do that is, I was joking earlier on, wasn't I? How do we make these decisions? Well, we, we disagree. We go away and then I come back and apologize for disagreeing. We just agree that you were right in the first place.
Sharon Edmundson: He is joking. That's actually how we do it.
But you've never actually pulled out that I'm head of the house. Trump card, have you? No.
Matt Edmundson: No. I mean, what would happen if I did? I'm just, I'm really curious.
Sharon Edmundson: I think I'll probably laugh. No, no. Um, no, seriously, so let's actually answer this question. So disagreements. What's, what do you think is, um, a healthy, biblical way to deal with that when you kind of, like, maybe you've discussed it and you've like, reached this point of going, we just don't agree.
Jan Burch: Um, I, I just think how, you know, it depends on, you know, we talking about what, what to have to eat [00:43:00] tea or are we talking about which school to send our children to, or, you know, whether we should, one of you should take the job at, in New York, you know, they, they're obviously very different in, in the consequences.
Um, I just think it, it, you know, what, what you said, um, what Matt said about going away and praying about it, um, and discussing it without getting angry. Yeah, and maybe I think if it's something big, um, like, you know, one of you thinks God's calling you to Australia and the other one doesn't, then I would consult with, um, really good friends that you trust, or your pastor or someone who knows you both really well.
Yeah,
Matt Edmundson: definitely. Don't call your pastor if you dunno what you're gonna eat tonight. Like, if you're having that argument and you call the pastor, then that's just wrong on Sunday. The answer is pasta.
Yeah, sure. Yeah. But I think, I [00:44:00] think I, I mean, it's sound wisdom, isn't it? You know, you're gonna pray about it. What does God say? We're gonna talk it through. Right. Um, and we're gonna listen to each other. Um, we're gonna talk it through, not make any rash decisions. And if we still can't figure it out, we're gonna go and seek outside counsel.
Um, and we're gonna go listen to, um, people we know, like, and trust, especially in, in, in the church. And it may be husbands that in that context we go to our church leaders and collectively there might need to be some mission there, right? So, um, I think that's where you've gotta be, I think a member of a good church.
That's where you, you've gotta get good people around you. Um, but I, I think those three things collectively, I think 27 years we've done that. Right. I don't, I don't think we've done anything outside of that.
Sharon Edmundson: No, and I think Jan's right in that there are different levels of decisions, aren't there? I think there's been times where we've disagreed about stuff and, but it's not like of massive importance.
It might be like [00:45:00] how we decorate the house or whatever. And if one of us feels much more strongly than the other, we've just kind of gone, you know what? You care about this more than I do. So even though I don't agree, you know? Yeah, just go for it. So it does depend.
Matt Edmundson: Of course there's always AI now as well.
You can always ask chat GPT, the answer.
Sharon Edmundson: It's your new friend.
Matt Edmundson: That was a joke. I'm just, I just wanna clarify. Don't ask Google. Don't ask GPT.
Sharon Edmundson: Okay. Different question for you. How do you, how could we respond to friends or family who think that biblical marriage is outdated or oppressive?
Jan Burch: It's their opinion. It's getting new friends. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. I'm joking again. Joking. Uh, it wouldn't alter anything really, but it would be interesting. Um, know it depends how, how close they are to you and how [00:46:00] important these people are in your life, um, that you would want to explain why you live the way you live and why you believe what you believe.
Um, obviously the closer the relationship with the person, the more important it is. Um, but I think if you've got a good stable marriage. Um, you know, like Matt has ex, you know, talked about today, then I think they will see that you are happy that you're both doing well. Um, it does, you know, people will always disagree with our choices.
Um, that's, that's okay.
Matt Edmundson: I think it's a fair point, Jen. I think the conversations I've had with people over the years, it's like after 27 years they can't argue because they're the ones that have been divorced. They're the ones that have, not all of them, but you know, a chunk of them have had bad relationships.
And so I [00:47:00] think the proof, proof is in the eating, isn't it really? And so, um, I've had a few people come to me and say, I didn't get it at the start, you know, because they knew me when I was younger, but they've come and gone. You are, you and Sharon are probably one of the few couples on the planet that we, we can look to and go, that's what good marriage looks like.
So that in itself speaks volumes, doesn't it? I think that's, um, that's a wonderful thing. I think a good thing actually to also do with people that have questions about it, for me, especially if they're outside of the church, is why, um, and to ask questions about what they think is wrong. Because fundamentally, like many of us, we carry opinions that we, we don't really understand why we have them.
Yeah. And so when you, when you get the opportunity to question that and to say, well, why do you think the way you do? And they, and the response is just a generic response. It's a bit old fashioned, isn't it? Yeah. But what does that mean? Why do you think it's old fashioned? What's old fashioned about what we're doing and why?
[00:48:00] And you can start to drill down that naturally. I think their argument. Uh, not that I've ever really had arguments about this, but I think that discussion quickly runs outta steam.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. There's a book that I really love which, um, is called Tactics. It's by Greg Coco, and I think he's got a 10th anniversary edition, um, which is the updated version.
And it, it's written for Christians actually to help them share their faith in terms of having the tactics to be able to have difficult conversations without being horrible or without getting people's backs up. But it's actually, I think, really useful for. Um, teaching us to have those difficult conversations about anything with anyone, not just about faith, but whether it's politics or whatever.
And it, it teaches about asking those different questions to actually, you know, really help clarify what somebody means by what they say and help them to clarify their thinking. And also, you know, just to have those questions to move on. So, [00:49:00] yeah. Definite recommendation on that one. Um, I thought of another question then.
Oh yeah. Um, so what about if, um, a couple have been married for a long time and, uh, doing things differently, maybe not the biblical way? Is it too late to change?
Jan Burch: Yeah, no, of course it isn't. Um, it's never too late to change. Um. Which is great news. Um, you know, it, the, there are many, many reasons why peop some people didn't get a really good, um, pre-marriage advice or, you know, lots and lots and lots of of reasons.
Um, but you found yourself, you know, 20 years on, um, in a bit of a sticky patch and it's, it feels, you know, what, what does God really say? We've, we've never really asked the question in this area. Um, so no, it's [00:50:00] never too late to, you know, to ask God and look at it afresh.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. I've just seen way too many people, way too many marriages get restored and you can, you can look at marriages at are a few years old and God gets involved and does something amazing.
You can look at marriages. That have been on the rocks for 20 years, you know, 30, 40 years. And God gets involved and restores that marriage and does incredible stuff. So no one's ever too old and it's never too late for God and the gospel.
Sharon Edmundson: Um, to backtracking to a previous, um, point that we made, Heather's written in my marriage, the big things have always been discussed and worked through.
It's the small things we falter on. We've almost come to divorce over selecting paint color.
Matt Edmundson: You know what? I remember a few years ago, we were, um, there was a couple that I was talking to, uh, they were, they were having issues in their marriage because he squeezed the toothpaste tube in the middle of the tube.
Do you remember? Um, so rather than he, she wanted it squeezed from the end and [00:51:00] he squeezed it in the middle and he just could not change. And they came to blows so much over this. It was the most extraordinary thing. And, and there's a, there's a, there's a phrase in marriage, uh, when, say marriage, there's a phrase that we use a lot.
The issue's never the issue, but it is a good place to start. Right. So I find in situations like that, that the issue's not actually about the toothpaste. I mean, it, it might be that really might be the root of it, but usually there's something else driving it. So talking about the toothpaste is a good place to start, but usually the issue's not the issue.
And there's, there's usually something, one or two runs down. Yeah. Um, that, that needs to be sort of weeded out. Um, but yes. Uh, Heather, I don't know if we've come close to divorce over paint color.
Sharon Edmundson: No. I think think maybe a few other things. I, those are the ones that we've more or less just let go and let the person who's got the, the biggest desire for it.
But as you've said that Heather, loads of things have come to mind in our house where not necessarily through marriage. 'cause [00:52:00] there's six of us in our house and there's a whole list of things that I'm like, why have they done it like that?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Sorry babe. It's usually me. It's usually my fault.
Sharon Edmundson: I don't think it actually is solely you.
Actually there's a, I. Yeah, there's a, it's not, so
Matt Edmundson: you heard this on camera? It's not just me. That gives me a way out. That's awesome.
Jan Burch: What,
Sharon Edmundson: what sort of things do you mean? Oh, have you start a, like, you know, in the bin gets full and somebody just waits for the bin ferry to empty it, or, um, towels just left in a little bunch where they can't dry out properly.
Or the toilet roll not replaced when it's run. Oh, we could go on. Let's, let's move on. Yeah. This is not therapy.
Matt Edmundson: I just want,
Sharon Edmundson: could go on for a while. I think we've probably got time for another one. Um, so, okay, so we've been talking about, uh, marriage from a biblical point of view, but what about, say if you've got a couple, one of them is a Christian, the other isn't.
Mm. How does [00:53:00] that work? Do they need to just give up on it or can that still work?
Jan Burch: I, I have some experience in this, not, not personally, but my, um, my parents initially when my mom became a Christian, my dad wasn't, he believed in God, but he wa he wouldn't have said he was a Christian. Um, and this was something that she really struggled in.
But the advice, um, the council that she received at the time, um, from her pastor or, you know, people that she trusted in the church was to, to really respect her husband. And, um, obviously not to deliberately go against, violate God's laws or anything, but as much as possible she needed to, you know, um, listen to her husband and be a, be sort of a.[00:54:00]
Sympathetic to his needs or, um, submit to his, his requests.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, there's, um. There's a verse in the Bible one Peter three, where, um, Peter the Apostle Peter is one of the disciples of Jesus. Um, he talks about this. He's, he's talking to wives specifically, uh, and you know, being subject to your own husband so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be one without a word by the conduct of their wives when they see your respectful and pure conduct.
Now, it's an interesting translation, so let's not get on some word semantics, but it's an interesting idea that, um, we were talking about it earlier, weren't we? There's a lady called Poly Wigglesworth, who I think is a great example of this. Um, Polly Wigglesworth was married to Smith Wigglesworth, and, um, if you dunno who Smith Wigglesworth is, I strongly recommend you read some of the books about him, because this guy had one of the most [00:55:00] extraordinary ministries.
Um, healing Ministries, didn't he? Just incredible miracles, healings, people being raised from that. All kinds of stuff happened with Smith Wigglesworth and actually he used to roam around the docks here in Liverpool for a little while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Bradford and stuff like that. He was some great stuff going on.
But there was a point for Smith Wigglesworth where he started to sort of lose his faith. Um, and Polly, his wife, kept going to church and it, and one night she came back from church quite late, and Smith is getting more and more agitated by this. And so he says to Polly, Polly, I know the Bible. I'm the master of this house.
I'm the head of this house. I forbid you for going to church. Right. And Polly just looked at Smith and said, you are not my master. Jesus is my master. And it's, it's an interesting thing, right? So this whole thing about headship that he, again, he misplayed the misplaced the card or [00:56:00] misplays the card. Um, Polly goes to church, right?
Because she's like, God's told me to go to church, so I'm gonna go to church. So she goes to church and Smith locks her out the house, right? So she sleeps on the doorstep of their house overnight, and in the morning, Smith comes down and he opens the door, and his wife, who's leaning against the door, falls into the kitchen, right?
If you are the wife, what do you do? At this point? It's a really interesting question. Polly Wigglesworth, who is the most extraordinary lady, stands up, brushes herself down, doesn't say a word about it, and make Smith breakfast. Just give, gives him a kiss on the cheek. I mean, I, I dunno the exact details, but in essence, this is what happened.
And actually it was that act of. Herb winning him over by acting with a respectful conduct that brought him back to Christ and [00:57:00] kickstarted one of the ward's most incredible healing ministries. And it was all down to, um, the incredible humility of this lady, Polly Wigglesworth. So, um, I think one Peter three chapter, one Peter one chapter, three verses one through two, three, whatever it was, I just read.
They're really good verses to read. I think if that's you, if you have an unbelieving spouse, it's like the Bible tells you what to do in that scenario. Um, and I think just let your conduct win them over.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can, even if the other person doesn't wanna follow this bit, you can definitely do your bit, um, as far as possible.
And I think it's, it's always about asking God for wisdom. Um, James one verse five says, if any of you lacks wisdom, um, he should ask God who gives it freely. So yeah, it's always a good way to go. Um, Heather's put, I think in relation to the paint selecting, just [00:58:00] said, this is important to me. Um, yeah, certainly not wanted to make light of that at all, Heather.
Um, yeah. The, the little things sometimes can be the, the, the massive bits that, yeah. Yeah. So apologies if it's come across. Um, otherwise,
Matt Edmundson: people that it took 'em years to redo their kitchen because they couldn't agree on how to do the kitchen and they, because they couldn't agree. It was decided, well, we'll just live with what we've got until we can get an agreement.
It took a long time. And you're like, I get it. Those things are important from both sides. And, um, you, you've definitely gotta work through them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sharon Edmundson: Um, just noticing the time. So any last comments before we go? No, just,
Jan Burch: I think, I think you did a really good job, Matt, and, um, um, yeah, and don't, you know, I don't want people to feel, or my, my marriage isn't the way Matt described and, you know, it'll never get be like that.
Well, you know, none of our, no one has a perfect marriage, [00:59:00] um, you know, for sure. But. With Gods at the center of it. I think that was another key thing that Matt said. You know, when God's at the very center, um, you know that everything else can be worked out if you're both willing. So, um, don't, don't give up hope.
You know, there's always hope. Um, tomorrow is another day. Um, so, you know, I don't want people to be discouraged. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. And I, off the back of that, thank you, Jan, but I, I would also say. If you feel like your spouse is not doing what they should do, based on what I've talked about, don't send them a copy of this.
Right. With a note saying, you really should watch this. You selfish, so and so. Um, I think, um, I, I remember being in, uh, listening to a talk once about marriage and the, the pastor said, listen, here are the rules. Wives, you're not allowed to elbow your husbands [01:00:00] and says is for you. You just need to listen. Um, uh, but I think, yeah, I think the Bible gives us an idea of what marriage can be and we, we miss that to a whatever degree.
Right. Um. But I think that doesn't change the will of God. And I think there's hope. I think there's always hope, and I think God can do incredible things both in your marriage and because of your marriage, through your marriage. Um, and so yeah, I, if you focus on you and let God change your spouse would be my best advice and, um, and see where it goes.
Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, um, one of the encouraging things about the Bible is it, it both describes God's ideal and the way things were set up, but it also describes some very messy situations where God comes into those messy situations and deals [01:01:00] with us as imperfect people, which we all are deals with our imperfect situations and can work through all of them, and, um, promises that he will lead us and guide us, and that he's a God that redeems so many difficult things.
So yeah, hopefully. Hopefully everybody's found some sort of encouragement here tonight. Um, yeah. So we'll finish a discussion for tonight. What have we got next week?
Matt Edmundson: Next week is Dan. Uh, you're talking about conflict, how to argue clean, right? How to argue, clean and fair. So that's what we're talking about next week.
Uh, that's gonna be with Dan. Um, I would love to tell you who's hosting, but I genuine. Do you know who's hosting next week? No. Me either. I can't remember.
Sharon Edmundson: It changes. Anyway,
Matt Edmundson: it, it does, 'cause it should have been two different people hosting tonight. So thank you ladies for stepping into the breach. Um, but yeah, uh, Dan's gonna be talking about conflict, so [01:02:00] marriage part three if you like.
And again, there'll be something for everybody, even if you're not, not married. So do come join us for that. Um, so yeah, that's next week.
Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. So we have finished for tonight, but if you'd like to connect with us, we've got, uh, Google meets now, um, straight after this, just for a few minutes. If you wanna come and say hi, um, get to actually chat to us in person.
So thanks for joining us and hope to see you next week.