04: Surviving Recurrent Miscarriage: Grief, Grace and Gratitude

What's the Story

6 Sept

Today’s Guest: Anna Kettle

Anna is a slow living advocate (learning on-the-job!), a recurrent miscarriage warrior, a lover of books, coffee and good conversation, and a big believer in the healing power of words.

She is a co-founder of SPACE miscarriage & infertility network which provides peer support to women affected by these issues, and a regular co-host on the popular Crowd Church podcast.

Anna is also the author of ‘Sand Between Your Toes: Inspirations for a Slower, Simpler, More Soulful Life’ a devotional all about learning to rest in God.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

Anna's story of recurrent miscarriages and devastating loss is heart-breaking and messy even but God's presence is evident even in the midst of the heartache, the brokenness, the questions and the doubts. He is working His good out of those hard situations and turning what was meant for harm into good.
The lives of all humanity are marked with suffering and no matter how it surfaces, suffering always demands our attention.
Anna' story shows that when grief comes knocking we need to press into God and deep dive into grief because that is where God's grace is waiting and working.

Links & Resources from today’s story

Also listen to:

What does the Bible say about grief?

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Matt Edmundson: Well, hello there. My name is Matt Edmundson and welcome to What's the Story, a podcast where we hear stories about faith and courage from everyday people. And today we get to converse with the beautiful Anna Kettle about what it's like to live with the challenges of miscarriage and motherhood. Now today's episode is brought to you by Crowd Church, which is an online church. You know, as well as I do that church is not always a building that you can get into and it might not even be a place you actually want to go to. And this is where online church works really, really well. It is super accessible. It is a safe space to explore the Christian faith and the thing that I absolutely love about Crowd is that it is online first, which means it talks with you and not just at you. That's right. You can join in the conversation if you want to, in the comments and the livestream, you can ask questions, you can share your stories and regardless of where you are at on your faith journey, I think it's worth checking out. So head over to www.crowd.church, or you can email me directly at matt@crowd.church with any questions. Before I get into today's conversation, I just want to mention a few links that would be worth checking out. The main one being, what does the Bible say about grief, which is a talk Anna did for Crowd Church a few months ago, ties in so well with Anna's story, which she's going to share with you today. Just head over to the Crowd Church website, and you can get access to that talk for free. Now, Anna is a slow living advocate learning on the job. She is a recurrent miscarriage warrior, a lover of books, coffee, and good conversation. And she's a big believer in the healing power of words. She is a co-founder of Space miscarriage and infertility network, which provides peer support to women affected by those issues. Anna, when she's not crazy busy is also a co-host, a regular co-host here on Crowd Church. And she is also, because you know, she's found the time somehow in the midst of all this to write a book, she is the author of Sand between your toes, inspirations for a slower, simpler, more soulful life. It's a devotional book all about learning to rest in God and definitely one that you should check out. Now, all that aside, like I said, all the links, everything will be on the show notes. Just go over to the website at Crowd Church and you'll find that. But without any further ado, here's my conversation with Anna Kettle.
Welcome to Crowd stories with me, Matt Edmundson. Uh, this is one of those things I just love to do. I just love to sit down and chat with people and find out what makes them tick. Find out about their life, about their story. And today we get to chat. With the beautiful and talented and all-around good egg, which is Anna. Anna, how you doing?
Anna Kettle: I'm good. Thank you. Yeah, that was a great introduction. And I love chatting to people and talking about stories as well.
Matt Edmundson: We're going to get into it, aren't we? We're going to get into it. Now, it has to be said, Crowd stories is a relatively new thing we've started doing, where we start to just dig into people's life story and their faith story. If you are new here or you are not sure what Crowd is, Crowd is a church. We're an online church. And if you want to know more, check out www.crowd.church, all the information is there basically. Now, today Anna, we're going to chat to you because you've been involved in Crowd. This is our second attempt, by the way, of recording this interview. So hopefully this one's going to go a little bit better. In the first attempt, we figured out that you'd been involved with Crowd since the summer of 2021, right? That's when we think you started. Is that right?
Anna Kettle: Yeah. We just need to clarify it, but this isn't a second attempt because we were awful. It was just internet problems. Yeah, it's been, it's been about six months, I think.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. That's actually quite a useful bit of information. Yes. We're starting the second attempt because Anna bored us in the first one, she's going to make it much more interesting. No, no, no. That's not what happened at all. Actually, it wouldn't be you that would be the boring one. It would be me and I'm very well aware of that. So, yeah, internet issues as they say. Now, so you've been in Crowd since the, during the summer. And we seem to be slowly sucking the life out of you and getting you more and more involved. What started out as a little talk a while ago is just sort of morphed into hosting and all kinds of things. And, I said, I don’t know if you heard me actually, in our first time, one of the things I said to you was, I know you are starting to feel more comfortable with the hosting thing, because the last time we hosted a couple weeks ago, you actually made fun of me whilst we were doing the live stream. And I thought, that's awesome. She has settled. The jokes are now starting to flow. So that's normally how we define it. So it is, let me tell you, it's brilliant having you on the team here at Crowd. Great having you host and I love your talks. In fact, last Sunday, we played your, at the time of recording, we played your, what does the Bible say about grief talk, which I thought was extraordinary. And in that you talked about a whole bunch of stuff that I want to get into, you know, the miscarriages and all that sort of stuff. But before we do, let's give folks a bit of background to Anna Kettle, dun dun, dun. I need one of those dun dun musics.
Anna Kettle: You do. You need some sound effects.
Matt Edmundson: I do. I really need that. Maybe we could do that in post edit. So let's, let's just sort of briefly touch on the Anna Kettle story, especially your Christian story, right? Here you are. How, how did you sort of find your way to Christ?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, that's a good question. So I grew up in a Christian household. In fact, I'm a pastor's kid, so
Matt Edmundson: or a PK.
Anna Kettle: Or a PK. I've just always been around Christianity. You know, always went to church as a kid. Sunday school, went to Christian schools for a few years. Yeah. Youth groups, as I got older, it's just always been there in the backdrop of my life. I think it would've been hard not to be coming from the family I came from. But I suppose, it was really coming to university in Liverpool at age 18, where it was sort of like the first time, I had to decide that I wanted to be a Christian for myself, rather than just like going with the flay because that was the culture of the family I grew up in. So those were quite, that was quite a formative time in my faith where it was like, do I believe what I believe because I really believe it? Do I believe it just because it's there and it's kind of always been there and that's what I've been told and brought up believing? So yeah, that was quite, that was quite a key time for me. And I think I went into halls of residence and spent some time just living with people who obviously were brought up quite different to me, weren't brought up as Christians and just really got up close and personal, I guess, with other friends or people that were living around that had quite messy lives, in lots of different ways and started to realize that actually the foundations I had were really good and actually made sense of life in a way that other people around me couldn't always manage to do. And yeah, so I think those were quite formative years because it made me realize, yeah, this faith thing, it really works. It works in the real world. It's not just a nice theory. It makes sense. And, yeah. And then kind of post university, I stuck around Liverpool. I got involved in student work for a few years in my local church after I graduated. And then I went into a career in marketing, which is what I trained to do really. I did a degree in English and communication studies. So the plan was always to do something like journalism, or something to do with the media. So yeah, I went into marketing and PR and spent a number of years working for big agencies in the Northwest and spending a lot of time with clients in London, worked for the department of health and a number of different government departments for a few years on campaigns. And yeah, just kind of got my teeth in that in my twenties. And then, yeah, kind of spent my time split for a few years between London and Liverpool actually in terms of work. And, that's eventually where I met my husband as well, kind of working to and from London. He's a Southerner as well.
Matt Edmundson: We'll forgive him for that.
Anna Kettle: So yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's awesome. So the, the thing that I wanted, the thing that you mentioned there that I just wanted to pick up on briefly is you grew up what we call in the church, a PK, right? A pastor's kid. You grew up, the child of a pastor and you do hear some really interesting stories from PKs, right? Pastor's kids. Sometimes they grow up with really vibrant faith. Sometimes church is the furthest thing away. They don't want anything to do with the church. You seem to have gone to university with, you know, a faith which you've had to sort of, as everyone does it, you need figure out who they are a little bit. So I'm guessing your experience growing up as a PK, was it good? Was it bad? Was it okay? I mean, compared to what other people go through, what was yours like?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, I mean, I, I think my childhood was good. I don't think, I certainly didn't have to go through any major traumas or major difficulties. I think, I kind of had a fairly level childhood and no major dramas in it really in terms of, yeah. I suppose being a pastor's kid seemed, means that sometimes you're kind of bit on a, not a pedestal, that's the wrong word, but you're kind of, you're most expected of, do you know what I mean, in the church community sometimes, and this can be quite a bit of pressure, but I don’t know, I think, we went to quite big church and I don't know. I guess I just had good friendships and was quite well grounded. I was the oldest of three daughters and yeah, I think I went a bit under the radar because I had other friends who were also pastor's kids. And also, I had like younger sisters who were maybe a bit naughtier. So I don't know. I always did quite well academically and just sort of went through life. I'm not, I certainly wasn't perfect by a long shot, but I think it was just no major dramas and yeah, I don't think I had it as difficult as some people do. And I also just think, I think some of it's about personality. Like some people don't mind that scrutiny that comes with being a pastor's kid or don't mind that kind of your parents basically shared around everybody in the church. You know, some people do and like, that's just, that's just what I grew up in. You know, I'm quite a sociable person. I didn't mind it. But I can imagine for some personalities that would be really difficult. So yeah, maybe it's partly that, maybe my parents were just, you know, fairly reasonable. I don't know.
Matt Edmundson: I've not actually met your parents, but I'm sure they're very reasonable. They've raised a beautiful daughter, so I'm sure they're very, very good people.
Anna Kettle: They are. No, they're very, they're very good.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. So, Uni was quite formative for you. You know, you went to university and you figured out actually I need to do this faith thing by myself. Cause you know, a lot of university students are like, it's the first time away from home, you either go, you know, my observation when I was at Uni is, you're going to either respond to that really well, or you're just going to go completely bonkers and just do stuff that, you know, you really shouldn't be getting involved with. What was it that caused you, was there a moment, do you think, or was it like a, over a period of months where you thought actually to yourself, no, that this is, this is real for me? And I need to, I need sort of, I guess not recommit. Do you know what I mean? But just sort of, this is definitely for me, this is the decision moment. Was there such a thing?
Anna Kettle: There was a couple of things that were really interesting in my journey to uni. Firstly, it was that I really felt like God brought me to Liverpool specifically. So just through the whole application process, it was like, all my other options got closed down for different reasons. I mean, the course I wanted to do, it was only available in like Leeds, Liverpool, a few like good Unis across country. And for one reason or another, like the other scenarios where I could go anywhere else other than Liverpool, that was like a half decent Uni, all shut down. Like a couple of options were rejected and in the UCAS bombs, and basically, it was like Liverpool or nowhere. And so I kind of remember saying, God, I don't really know what I want to do with my life at age 17. You know, this course looks kind of cool. Liverpool looks kind of cool. I don't know why I feel quite drawn to it, but you know, if this is it then great. And if not, I'll just take a gap here and do something totally different, but like, would you just lead me? And I got the, I had to get really high grades. I had to get two A's and a B in order to get into my course. It was a really competitive course. So I was like eek cause, well, certainly one of my, one of my A levels was history and I was like predicted a day cause I did no work. I didn't really enjoy the subject. So I had some work to pull out to like pull that up and I ended up getting straight A's. It just felt like against all the odds and it just felt like God was like, yeah, a hundred percent. I want you here. I want you on this course. And yeah. So it felt like, wow, God really put me in Liverpool. And then secondly, I think, I think the week before I went to Uni, one of my youth leaders and friends, she lived down the road from me, an older girl in my church at home had prayed for me that there would be another Christian on my corridor, which when you think statistically, there's not many Christians at university or like openly Christians. And she prayed that like, God would just put key people around me, like when I went in schools of residence. And it was really interesting because like two doors down there was another really strong Christian girl who I went to church with. So we kind of dragged each other there and had the same friendship group. And I felt like that was just really God's grace, because it made it really easy to go to church and be open about being a Christian from day one. And, yeah, we both went to Frontline together during our Uni years and were able to share quite openly about our faith with some of our other friends that we lived around as well. And the third thing was, and it's quite interesting that we did. It was quite interesting that we talked about Alpha before and how we did alpha in the summer and Crowd Church, because I kind of came to Uni thinking, I really want to know that this faith thing works. For me now, like moving away from home, from my parents, from the Christian background, I've really wanted to know this works in the real world. This, it was sort of a make or break for me. And I remember thinking I've never actually really looked at the ins and outs of faith. Like I've just kind of accepted it. And so I actually read the Alpha book in my first term of Uni, just to really, not because I didn't believe in God, but just because I wanted to know why I believed what I believed and to really dig a bit deeper into it. Yeah. So, and I remember doing that and just, I just nicked it off my dad's bookshelf and took it to Uni with me and read through it. And it just, I think it clarified some stuff for me about how I could be sure that what I believe was real and true. And so it was this like sorting it out in my own head. And then also my experience coming alongside that, and then living in halls of residence where yeah, lots of people were up to crazy things. Like I hit Liverpool in 1998 and sort of like Cream was in its heyday. Every student came to Liverpool because they wanted to go clubbing basically. You know, I did too, to be fair, but, you know, so I was like in this kind of late nineties, crazy club culture, student experience where everyone just went clubbing on all-nighters and that, that was just what everyone around me did. And it was just, it was quite messy in some ways. Yeah, like it just, it was really crystallizing that whole thing like that sense of God bringing me there and putting me in Liverpool, at that time and that place for a purpose. And some of that is that a couple of friends came to know God in that first year through me and my other friend, and just kind of being who we are and sort of finding our own feet with God as well. So yeah, it just felt like it all just came together at the right time and it just really clicked. And I think that wasn't necessarily what I did, that was God's grace, really.
Matt Edmundson: And so do you think that's, I mean, you said that when you were praying, when you're about 17, you felt, you felt God sort of leading you to go to Liverpool. Do you think that's the reason why when you look back with hindsight, it's easier sometimes to see isn't it, why God did certain things? And so do you look back now and go, yeah, God, I can see what you were doing? There was, it was great. I got to make friendships. I got to lead some people to Christ. I got established in a local church. It really cemented my faith and it started a journey where I met my husband. Do you know what I mean? And all those sorts of, is that what you mean when you say, you know, God had a plan and purpose, can you, is that what you can see in hindsight?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, I think so. I think it's that sense of like all the other doors that I pushed were sort of shut in my face really. And it just felt really clear like that. I just felt really led down that route and it's worked out, it's worked out well for me. So, and particularly like for my spiritual growth in these first few years, it really worked out and yeah. So I can kind of sense God's hand over it all. It's like a golden thread that runs through it all where you think, yeah, this is it, this is God. Like, it just feels like it had his fingerprints on it.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. I mean, I knew you when you, I think we met when you were doing student work. I mean, we must have met at some point when you were at Frontline, I got married in 1998 when you decided to become a student. So, you know, there was a slight age difference. You obviously had quite an extraordinary time at university. It really helped cement your faith and you actually then go on to do student work at church to help students get cemented in their faith. I'm curious in this, because my eldest, Josh, who, if you're familiar with the Crowd livestreams, you'll have seen him when we used to do the Crowd catch up here. And my second eldest child, Zach, he's going to Uni in September, right? So in the UK, we do university in September. And by the way, just to say, if you are watching this outside of the UK, when Anna talks about A-levels, it's the exams that we take when we're 18 and the results of those exams determine whether or not you can go to Uni.
Anna Kettle: I think they're not even called A-levels anymore. We're showing our age now? I don't even know what they take anymore, or is it GCSEs that's changed?
Matt Edmundson: No, no, they're still A-levels.
Anna Kettle: Is it still A-levels?
Matt Edmundson: It's still my, yeah, yeah. Still A-levels. They were talking about this whole baccalaureate system, bringing that in at some point. And I don’t know if that ever has or, all I can tell you is Josh and Zach. Well, Josh has done his A-levels. Zach is doing his A-levels. He's taking his exams this year. And he's off to Exeter University, hopefully. And Josh is at St. Andrews. You couldn't get further apart in the UK. Not if you tried, I don’t know what my boys are trying to tell me, but they are, they are 10 hours apart, which in the UK is huge, let me tell you, huge. Anyway, back to my original train of thought here, they're going off to Uni. These were, it was obviously very formative time for you. And, if I'm honest, Uni was an extraordinarily formative time for me. That's where I became a Christian, just before going to university. I really cemented my faith at University. It made a massive difference to me. What advice would you give to people who are 18, they're heading off to University, what would you tell them that have grown up in that Christian environment? What sort of tips would you have found helpful?
Anna Kettle: I guess the things I did find helpful was just that people encouraged me to get plugged into a local church quickly. And just to, yeah, just to make sure that I met some Christian friends. I think it's, it can be really hard if you don't have that kind of network. I think that was really key for me. Because I went to a big church, like Frontline, I had a lot of good Christian friends as well as met a lot of good non-Christian friends. And I think without that, it can be really hard because you feel like, I mean, culture's changed a lot in the last 20 years anyway, but I think you feel like you stick out like a sore thumb, if you're the only person that, you know, who's got a faith and you start to, I think it's probably easy to start thinking, well, why do I believe all this stuff? No one else around me does, is it just all a bunch of rubbish? They all seem to think it is. And I think it's so important to just surround, you know, to also have those kinds of key relationships. A few people where you can be really honest with and meet regularly and pray and chat with, just talk about faith stuff, because I don't think it's, I think it's hard to, it's not impossible, you know, you can listen to podcasts, you can read your Bible, you can talk to God. I think it's hard to stay rooted in your faith without being in community with others, so I think, yeah, really seeking out other Christians who are students is really important.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, I totally echo that. I mean, for me, the big ones were who my friends were, the local, the church I was involved with. And actually, for me, the CU was really good for a good few years. It really helped me, you know, and it helped me connect with new, with other Christian friends as well. So, okay. So let's move on from Uni. We're going to fast forward a little bit. Let's fill in some of the blanks. So, you end up working at some agencies, you worked with me for a little season from memory. You worked in one of our little eCommerce businesses. Is that right?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, I think I did it part-time when I was doing student work, you know, because I still had to put some bills to pay. So I had to, like, I did quite a bit of voluntary work, the student ministry at church. So then I also had to do some other jobs to make money. So yeah, I did do a little bit of time with you guys. Didn't I?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. No, I do. I remember that. So you, obviously the best job you've ever had, but moving on from that. You worked at a marketing agency, you're back and forth, with London, which is where you meet Andy. Now, Andy is your husband now. And through one means or another, Andy decides to move up from London to Liverpool, rather than you moving from Liverpool to London. That's probably a whole story in itself, but maybe for another time. How old were you, if you don't mind me asking, when you met Andy?
Anna Kettle: So when we met, we were both 29 when we first met. And then we got married when I was 33. So obviously it was long distance for quite a while. So that kind of, yeah, that, that kind of courtship, like dating sort of phase was quite slow, but I think some of it was being long distance and some of it was because his dad had cancer at the time. And so he might have moved up to Liverpool sooner had his dad not been really ill. So some of that was a bit protracted, but yeah, 29 when we met.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. Wow. And it's interesting because when we were having our little pre-chat about this, one of the things that you said, because we talked about challenges, the key sort of trials that you faced in life. One of which has been the miscarriage and the motherhood, which we're going to get into in a little bit. But one of the things that you said that really stuck out to me was you said, if you asked me that question when I was in my twenties, I would've said singleness. Right? So you didn't start dating until you were 29. Andy, does that mean you didn't really date in your twenties and you had to sort somehow figure out this whole singleness thing?
Anna Kettle: Yeah. I mean. I did have dates. I did see a few people, but I didn't like seriously date anyone. Like I didn't have any serious relationships in my twenties. I think a few people came on when, and it just wasn't really a good click. But yeah, most of my twenties, I was single and I think that's probably fairly common experience for women in church. I don't, you know, I think either you meet someone quite young when you're a student or it's quite hard to meet someone a bit later into your twenties, because I think the ratio of male to females in church, particularly young people is quite an imbalance. I don’t know what the statistics are. It's probably like three to one or four to one or something. I don't know. It certainly felt like that. And also, I think for me, I'd been in Frontline for quite a long time. So it was like quite a lot of the guys, my age were just quite good friends and it, you kind of get past that point of like, you know, meeting someone new, don't you, I suppose you're in the same circle? But yeah, it, I think it's hard. It's hard because obviously being a Christian anyway, it's, if you want to meet someone who shares your faith, you want to meet someone in church, then, you know, that's a much smaller pool of people. Like I could have met and dated lots of people that I met through work and other parts of my life, but I chose not to do that. So, because I wanted someone that shared my faith because that was a really important part of my life. So yeah, that meant that the pool was a lot smaller to start with and took quite a bit longer to meet someone that kind of clicked and was a Christian. But I think, certainly I don't think I'm alone in that experience. Like I think I had quite a few other friends who were in a similar position, didn't get married till their thirties, although they would've liked to meet someone at 21. So, yeah, I think it is a challenge. It's a challenge for the church about, you know, making sure that we care for people who are single as much as married and in families. I think it's easy to feel, particularly to get into your later twenties and probably even more so into your thirties, it's easy to feel like a bit of a misfit, or a bit overlooked.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah. So what, how did you, I guess looking back on it now, that sort of, that period of singleness, which I think, I don't think it is as much these days and I could be wrong, Anna, and correct me if I am wrong, but certainly 20 years ago, singleness felt much more, I don't want to use the word frowned upon than it is now, but it was like, people would be kind of surprised you're single, why would you be single? Why would, certainly in the church, right? In the church community, it was one of those expectations that you would, that you would just get into a relationship. But I think now it feels different. We celebrate singleness now a lot more as an actual, a positive thing. And John did a talk actually, what does the Bible say about marriage and relationships? And he talked about this and there, and I thought that was, you know, it was great how he did it. What are some of the things that you have experienced that the church, not Frontline, but do you know what I mean? The church as a whole or Christianity as a whole did that weren't helpful when you were single, if that makes sense. What are some of maybe the wrong expectations it had?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, I think there were a few things. I think firstly, I think some of the teaching is just unhelpful. Like I've heard, I've heard preached that, like, you're more blessed if you're married. How's that going to make anyone single in your congregation feel? I actually went up to the pastor after I heard it and said, I'd like to disagree. I don't think that's theological. And I also don't think it's very sensitive. But lots of people would've just sat there and felt awful about themselves.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Kettle: So, so sometimes the theology and the teaching is just poor on it. And then I think a lot of it is about the culture. So for me, I found the older I got, the further on I got, the less pool of single friends I had and the more married couples I had. And it, I think it's easy to get into this culture where married couples hang out with other married couples and it's like, you know, and why can't you just also invite a single friend to come and hang out as a five? You know, why does that have to be a four? And yeah, I think that kind of culture of, kind of feeling like you can't. I don’t know. I don’t know what the barrier was, but like, yeah, quite often just simple things like inviting someone around for lunch because actually it's really lonely to just go home on your own after church. You know, simple things like that. I think church culture could be a lot better at just thinking about single people. And then I think as well, I suppose those are the main things practically, but, yeah, I think the other thing is not pressurizing single people. Like you say, it's, you know, there's times where someone would be like, well, you're single and you obviously want to get married. That's your heart's desire. So how about this guy? How about this guy? How about this guy? And you're like, no, I don't really feel like I connect with those people. They're not really, nice guys, but just not really the right person for me, not a good click. And then it'd just be like, were you too fussy? You know, it would be like, it's not like they're not God's true match for you. It would always be like, well, it's your fault you're single then. You're too fussy. You could, you know, there's this guy, you know, it was always just a bit, I don’t know, the culture was a bit pressurizing, like just date whoever's there available, just whoever's available. And I don't know, I'm not sure that's always wisdom. And actually, I've seen that happen and I've seen friends, you know, not necessarily in Frontline, but in church, generally jump into relationships quite quickly, quite young, and then be left, you know, by their thirties and horrible divorces and all kinds of mess. I sort of think it's good, it is good to get married younger. I think singleness is hard, but also it needs to be the right person and it's better someone doesn't get married than gets married and then ends up in a mess later. And I just, yeah, sometimes it always feels like marriage is a goal and that's not the case. Is it? So, and you know, also like, there's this culture of, I don’t know, like marriage is the end goal or something, and anyone who's married as you are, you and I are, will know it's not, it's just a difficult, it's just a different aspect of your life. Isn't it? There are great things about marriage, but it's also really hard things about being married and it's not as black and white as like singleness is bad, marriage is good. It's, you know, it's good and bad things about both.
Matt Edmundson: No, I totally agree. I think for me, the thing has always been actually my life is, it’s not about whether I'm single or married, I mean, I am married, so I, you know, I will stay married. It's about glorifying God, and you can do that whether you're married or single. Right? And that's what the Bible talks about. It's the whole reason, you know, your raison d'être sort of thing. If it's wrapped up in your marital status is never a good place to be. Whereas, if your identity is wrapped up in Christ and serving Christ and glorifying God and doing that regardless of your marital status, I think that's a good thing. And I, I do think you're right. I have this whole, you know, you're more blessed if you're married, theology just, no, we don't hold that true here at Crowd. I just want to point that out. That's not what we think. But I, I do get what you're saying here, because it's easy for me as a married person to go, well, the church just needs to be better at teaching about marriage, but actually what you said there, I find is, is both helpful and challenging. I personally, what I need to, as a married person, invite single people around to our house and just hang out with them and just, and not be afraid of that, you know and take much more of an active interest. Yeah, I think you're right.
Anna Kettle: Yeah. And the other thing for me was that it, you know, there were some really great things about being single in my twenties. Like some aspects were challenging, but I also got to live in a, like, I lived really intentionally for a few years in my twenties, in a big house. So like shared house with nine people. And a few of us were Christians who went to frontline and a few of us weren't and like three of those people that weren't originally Christians became Christians. And I don't, over a sort of two- or three-year period of like living with them and like investing in their lives daily and just in friendship and being up close. And I don't think since being married and in a nuclear family, like I am now, I don't think I've seen that in my life again, like I was able to live with and shape and disciple and share my faith day to day with people in a way that I don't now do, because I've got my, you know, husband and child. So yeah, there's things about that stage of life that are so unique. And I think there's actually stuff that God did in that stage that actually wouldn't have happened had I got married at 21, so. I just, yeah, I think it's really important that as a church, we kind of empower and encourage people to be their full selves as well in singleness, and to fully embrace what God wants to do in that stage of their life, as something really special, something that they won't necessarily have again later. Like, I don't think I'll get another chance to do that kind of thing. And yeah, it was a really exciting time.
Matt Edmundson: That's really, really good. That's really good. And again, it comes down to, you know, glorifying God, whatever you're doing and just seeking God's best. Doesn't it? So if we, if we move on from your twenties, you get married to Andy. He's a top bloke, by the way. You get married to Andy. And so then you, your next big trial apart from the whole marriage thing, which you know, that is a whole learning curve. We'll maybe save that for another day. You said that motherhood for you was a massive transition. Why? I mean, apart from the obvious reasons, why was that such a huge deal for you?
Anna Kettle: So yeah, I mean, for me actually getting married felt quite natural and I think maybe that's another great thing about doing it a bit later. Like, it actually felt like a quite easy click. Like some people say beginning of marriage was really hard and I found I was quite easy. I think it was when we had Ben, our little boy that it became trickier because we were tired and we were a bit shell shocked and a bit more stressed with this new baby who never stopped crying and had like a few health complications at the beginning as well. I think that was kind of, yeah, much more of a stretching time, like for us, yeah, I think, so we had, we had Ben in 2015, so he's six now. He's coming around seven soon. And, yeah, he was born with some health complications. Like he was born by emergency C-section and he was born kind of with, like, his head was kind of basically permanently squashed like that when he came out. So he couldn't like straighten his neck, which meant he, he had some like delays in terms of developmental delays. He like walked late. He sat late, he crawled late because, all because of postural stuff. So he got corrected over time with physio. He had like a few hairy months where he was, he had to like have MRIs at Older Hay and lots of checks to make sure there was nothing else going wrong. Like, you know, brain damage or anything like that, but he was fine. And yeah, it just, it corrected itself over time. Like, you wouldn't necessarily know that about him now. But he also had some like developmental delays in terms of language and other behavioural stuff. And got put on what's called the Autism Spectrum Disorder pathway, ASD pathway. So he's still, he's still going through process on that actually for assessing like neurodiversity in him. So yeah, so he's a brilliant kid, but he's also quite, he can be quite a handful at times. Yeah, he's got a big heart and he's got a lot of energy and he takes a lot of energy to parent. So yeah, so that, I suppose, becoming a parent was a big shock to us in terms of like, it always is anyway. And then I think we had a son who had some extra complications quite early on into parenthood. So that was, yeah, I guess no parent ever expects any difficulties. They just expect their child to just come out and just fit the norm. And if a child has any neurodiversity or, kind of developmental problems or anything else, it's, you know, physical problems, whatever, it's just a shock. You don't expect it. And so yeah, that was stuff we had to deal with. And then, but you know, we were incredibly blessed to have him and then two years later we sort of decided we'd extend our family and have, try and have a sibling for him. We got pregnant straight away again. So we just, we had Ben, fairly quickly and we got pregnant again fairly quickly. And so we just thought, oh yeah, this is fine. I think I was like 36 or 37 by then, you know. By today's standards, that's not particularly odd to have a second child. But yeah, I had an early miscarriage, but just around Christmas time. So I got pregnant in the autumn and it was around Christmas time. So it was probably around eight or nine weeks. And yeah, it was just, I suppose for me it was a big shock. It's always a big shock, I think, miscarriage for any woman. And it was really sad and it was especially sad because it happened just around Christmas and my sisters, both my sisters had had kids the same year that we'd had Ben and then they were pregnant again. And we were like, brilliant. We're going to have more cousins at the same time. And, Andy's sister actually, Jane, his older sister was also expecting a child the same week. Literally the same week that we would do. So yeah, so we were kind of like, this is perfect. It's, you know, so exciting. And then the disappointment of like, oh, it's not happening for us, but it is for everyone else. And the family around us was really hard. So that Christmas was tough, but like kind of once we got through it, we were like, well, you know, we'll move on. We'll heal. We'll try again in a few months’ time. I'm sure it'd be fine next time. I'd got other friends who'd had miscarriages and chatted to them a bit and you know, its sad, miscarriage, but it happens to one in four pregnancy. So I knew it was common going into pregnancy. It can happen to any woman and it's, you know, more frequent than people talk about. And so I just thought, well, it's sad, but it's one of those things and you know, next time it'll be fine. So that was kind of, that was kind of our instruction to parenthood and then second parenthood. Yeah. And then kind of, we had a few months gap and then tried again and then miscarried quite quickly again with the second one, like less than six months later. And that was, that was the real shock because I thought, well, miscarriage is quite common, like two miscarriages in a row, are really rare, like when you talk to any health professionals after miscarriage, they say, don't worry about it. It's really common. You can try again, straight away. You know, it rarely happens twice. Next time we'll be fine. That's all people tell you after miscarriage pretty much. So, you know, statistically it's unusual to have two in a row. So yeah, that was really, that was really hard because it was like kind of this first inkling of like, oh, that's not normal. Like there might be something else going on here. Especially because Ben had had some health complications late that were affect, they thought were maybe caused late into the pregnancy. Like some growth problems at the end of my pregnancy with him. So because of that, they kind of looked at it all at Liverpool women's hospital our local hospital, and sort of said, we should look into this more because when you look at your pregnancy with Ben and then two current miscarriages after it, there might be something going on here that's pattern. So yeah, that was kind of a shocking introduction into trying to expand our family. And then that's really hard. I mean, it was, it was a lot and it was a lot to kind of go from thinking everything's fine, and of course we'd have a second baby. And then within that six-month period being sat in front of consultants of the women, it was quite a short period. Really. It was like within that sort of December to like the following summer, you know, by that point we'd found ourselves in front of specialist consultants in recurrent miscarriage, saying we need to do some tests for like rare diseases and genetic problems. All kinds. And it was just a bit like, okay, this is not how we thought parenthood was going to go. It's definitely not how we thought expanding our family was going to go. So, no, yeah, that season was really hard. I think we just, I mean, we come back, obviously go through the grief of a miscarriage anyway. And then we had, it's like grief on top of grief to have two miscarriages back-to-back. And you've not really got over the first one and then you're grieving again. And then you're also hit with all this kind of shock of like, all right, there could actually be something more going on here as well that we might have to deal with. And this is not, soon that realization that parenthood and expanding your family's not going to be a smooth ride. Yeah, that was hard.
Matt Edmundson: Wow. Well, and I mean, your talk that you did, what does the Bible say about grief? You draw on your story a lot. When you talk about these sorts of principles that you learned during this time of grieving the loss of, the two miscarriages, you know, the two babies and alongside that, as well as the babies, there's a loss of the, there's a loss of the dreams. Isn't there? The plans, the hopes, and there's, you know, the life and things are now changing and they're not great. Can I ask, did you, you're sort of sat in front of the consultant, you're doing all these tests. Did you then try again or was that the end of the road?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, so they kind of ran a load of tests. They do lots of blood tests and different samples. They run for loads of rare diseases that cause miscarriage in some instances, and they kind of basically ruled out anything that they were looking for. I think miscarriage is tricky in that most cases of miscarriage and infertility as well, actually are undiagnosed and undiagnosable. Like they don’t know why they happen in other words, medically speaking, but there are, there are some rare diseases, blood disorders kind of, yeah. Those kinds of things that can cause some of them. So they ruled all that out and said we can't find anything. So the best thing to do is just kind of try again, if you want to and see what happens. And I think this is the thing about recurrent miscarriage that no one can really tell you if they can't find a cause, which is most instances, I think. Then all they can really say is just keep trying for as long as you want to as many times as you want to and hope that one sticks, hope that one baby, you know, just sticks around and, yeah, and there's not really a lot more they can do. There's a bit more science to it in terms of like, they can encourage you to kind of take certain drugs that is based to improve the embedding process in the womb and that kind of stuff in those early weeks. For me, they had this theory that it was probably because they ruled out like any kind of rare diseases and those kind of genetic disorders and stuff that they said based on Ben's condition as well, when he was born, that they thought it was to do with a placental growth thing and maybe an embedding issue in the womb, something to do with like the way how well my womb was working and growing. So yeah, that is a theory. It's normally a DNA thing or it's an embedding thing, or it's like rare disease with a mum, but they don't really know for sure, but it's all a bit of guesswork, cause no way of really knowing and you meet someone who have like miscarried five or 10 times. You know, cause they just keep trying.
Matt Edmundson: Wow.
Anna Kettle: And for us, we tried a third time and we got quite far, we saw the baby's heartbeat at eight and a half weeks. Everything looked good. I had no bleeding that time. And I think I was, this was by, I was 39 by this point. And so we'd yeah. And we just felt like this is probably the one, this is it. In fact, we'd had a couple of words of knowledge before we got pregnant from people who didn't necessarily even know our situation. So for a number of reasons, we thought like this was it and you know, God was going to give us this baby. And then, yeah, we saw the heartbeat eight and half weeks. So they're really healthy. We were like, yep, this is great. Normally I would be miscarrying by now. And then we went for the 12-week scan and I'd had a silent miscarriage, which is effectively, you turn up to the scan, all excited, like parents always are, and then they say, sorry, there's no heartbeat. So your body just hasn't realized it's not pregnant yet. The hormones are still going. There's been no bleeding. So you basically, your body's still holding the pregnancy. So you don't know, there's no indication that you've lost it. And I think that's how a lot of miscarriages happen actually. But yeah, so we found that out and that was obviously a huge shock. It was really devastating. And yeah, we, the only thing about that was because I'd had a silent miscarriage or missed miscarriage as they call them sometimes, they said that they could take a DNA sample, like from the pregnancy remains cause they, they have to remove it by operation. So, yeah. They sent some samples off and got it tested in the lab, like the DNA and stuff. And it came back, took a few months, but it came back and basically it confirmed that it was a healthy baby girl and there were no DNA problems. So that kind of was ruled out the other thing, which is like sometimes, particularly as you get older, that can just be like, you know, some people say, oh, miscarriage is the best because maybe there's something wrong with baby anyway. And that, that can be a factor in some instances, like there's a, you know, there's too many, the gene sequence is wrong. There's too many or not enough. I don't know. I'm not a specialist in genes, but you know that. But basically, that ruled that out. So it was most likely that it was an embedding problem for me, by deduction. So they said, right. Try and get pregnant again. And, here's a pile of drugs to try and help that embedding process. Take progesterone every day cause high levels of progesterone are good. Take heparin, which thins you blood, because that's good. So yeah, I had to take daily heparin injections, use pessaries and all kinds. It was quite invasive. And so we did that for a number of months on a number of cycles and just never got pregnant again. So I think for us, it was like, we just, it was a shame because we were just getting somewhere and then we hit a wall where it's like we've yeah, we've hit the end of our fertility. Like some people that happens slightly later, some slightly earlier, but normally around 40 it becomes quite difficult to get pregnant actually again. I know it can happen. I've had friends who've had babies into their forties, but it didn't happen for us. Everyone's slightly different. So yeah, we talked to, after that we talked to some fertility experts at Liverpool Women's and they said we could try IVF. And actually, we had all the tests run and they said, fertility looks pretty good for our age. And that actually IVF would probably harvest us, you know, a good number of eggs and probably a good shot for pregnancies, if we wanted to do it. I think for us, by that point, it was like, Ben was, you know, kind of five, five and a half, six. I can't even remember. And yeah, it felt like quite a big gap. And also it felt like quite a big risk in terms of, if we had just been an infertile couple that can't get pregnant, then that would've been a good shot for us. But what they were saying was this would get you pregnant, but it wouldn't change your risk of miscarrying again. So you could spend six grand on IVF cycles each time and still miscarry six weeks or eight weeks later. And we can't really do anything about that part. So for us, we just kind of, we wrestled with it and we held it for God. And, you know, we would, I think Andy in particular, my husband just felt like we'd been through enough as a couple already, and that we'd been through a lot of loss and grief and how much more did we want to put on ourselves? And it just felt like ever decreasing odds of success as we go older and ever higher kind of, I don’t know, cost and not just the physical cost of IVF, but emotional cost as well to us and to our family. And so we kind of said, we'll not pursue it. And if God gives us another pregnancy, so that's great. And if he doesn't, then so be it. And actually, for me, I prayed quite a number of times. I said, God, I really want to get pregnant again if this baby's going to stay, I don't want to just go through miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage, like some women do, because I just don't want to be stuck in that grief cycle. It's just really hard. And it's just, I don’t know, it's just not how you want to spend 5 or 10 years of your life, if you can help it. So, yeah, and that was like, during lockdown that we were getting all that IVF and fertility advice. So for a while we had quite a big gap because services were closed during lockdowns and then sort of came out of that and made that decision. And then that was about a year ago. So we're about a year on now and not saying God can't do it, but it's probably unlikely in the natural. So that's where we are now. We're kind of open to the fact God could do it, but also realistic about the fact that that's probably our opportunity to grow our family naturally, been and gone, probably had our best shots at it. So yeah, it's kind of, it's hard. It's hard infertility, because it's like, there's no absolute closure. It's like it could happen and no one medically, would ever tell you it can't because it can. But it's like ever less likely as we get older. So yeah. So that's where we are now. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: I mean that, thank you for sharing, Anna, the story, and it's, I'm sitting here listening to you and I know, I know the story, but it's still heartbreaking to hear it, if I'm honest with you and you know, it's heartbreaking listening to what you are saying. And so goodness knows what you and Andy have gone through. Right? I mean the whole grief and the devastation, the emotion with all of that, I guess if I sit here and I listen to you and I'm kind of going, what would be the question, I guess, if I was listening to this and I, I didn't know the story, and I didn't know you, what would be one of the questions I'd want to ask? And I guess one of them for me would be, where was God in this, right? Because you're a Christian, this is a church podcast. Here's your life with heartbreak and devastation and loss, but you're a Christian. So where was God in all of this, do you think?
Anna Kettle: Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. And it's one I've asked lots of times, I think. Where is God in it? I think God's probably right with us weeping, you know, grieving with us, holding us. I think miscarriage isn't God's plan. I don't think, you know, you do hear some strange teaching sometimes about everything happens for a reason. Everything happens, you know, maybe it was for the best or whatever. And I don't. I don't believe that. I don't believe that death and sickness and disease in any form or shape, and that includes miscarriage is ever part of God's plan. In fact, I think, you know, that the kind of key for me was looking right back in Genesis at the beginning of the creation story. And, when you look at like Adam and Eve and the Fall, one of the like direct like consequences of the fall was like, you know, it says for the woman that there'll be difficulty in childbirth. And I don't think that just means that childbirth will hurt. I think that means there'll be difficulty in having child, difficulty in having children and having family and I think you can see that in all forms of infertility and, you know, motherhood's hard even with the children you do have, as you know, I've alluded to with Ben, I think there's struggle in all parenthood isn't there? And all motherhood, whether you get to have the children that you want or not. Yeah, for me, it's all, that's all wrapped up in the fact that it wasn't God's intention for us. And so for me, that was my starting place. Theologically it's like, well, I don't believe that this is from God. I believe that this is a result of this broken, messy, fallen world that we live in. So that was the first part of it. And then where do I believe God is in the middle of it? He's with us. Cause he promises to be with us in our grief and to draw near those who are broken-hearted. And then where is it all heading? I believe he's with us in terms of this bigger picture of God, working through times to redeem all things. And that actually, although as Christians, we want all the outcomes now, we pray for like health on earth, we pray for blessings now, we pray for babies. We pray for, you know, business success. We pray for all these things now. Those things that are broken and stay broken on this side of I do believe get resolved in heaven in eternity with God. And that actually you know, for me that, that's my only hope. Like, I don't know where the hope is in like stories of miscarriage and infertility if you don't believe in God. You know, some people say, I don't know how you can believe in God and go through all that, but I don’t know how you can go through all that and not believe in God, because to me it's like, if I didn't have my faith, where else would I go with it? It's just hopeless. And I'd much rather walk through this with a hope of eternity and the fact that God promises to make everything right one day, I don't know how that looks exactly, but I do believe that you know, children are miscarried or, you know, stillborn or lost later into life, I believe they'll all be you know, all of that will be restored and made right in heaven. And yeah, that's the kind of hope that we've been able to cling onto. So I guess for me, faith, and where is God in it is that he's been the only hope in the midst of something that's been quite a difficult, painful and dark season at times. He's been like, kind of hope in it all. Like, there's that verse I can't remember where it's from in the Bible exactly, but where one of the disciples says, you know, says, where else would we go, Lord? You know, where else would we go? Like, we don't have anywhere else to go except you and that it is kind of that thing for me, it's like, well, to who else would I go? Where else would I go if not to Jesus? I don't have another solution that makes this right. You know, medicine can't fix it. Clever thinking can't fix it. Self-help doesn't fix. So for me, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with it.
Matt Edmundson: That's, super, super inspirational. And I've mentioned this before, you know, the people that I find the most inspiring in life are the people that have gone through trials, that have gone through tragedy, that have gone through dark times. But they emerge just the sweetest, loveliest people. And that would, in my head, that's you and Andy, you know, and with everything that you've gone through that I can't imagine, you're still, you still emerge like this and it's inspiring. And I'm not being flippant when I say that. It's a genuine, genuine belief. One of the things that you said to me, which I found quite interesting, and I wrote it down, you said, hope can't be in the outcome. It has to be in God. And faith isn't about everything going your way. Which sounds a bit like that's what's come out of this story.
Anna Kettle: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, yeah, I think we can easily think, certainly this is how I grew up thinking, because I had quite an easy life, you know, growing up and quite straightforward childhood and nothing major rocked my world, until I kind of hit my twenties maybe a little bit with singleness and some of that stuff we talked about, but then more so in this scenario with motherhood and miscarriage and infertility. For me, it's like the first time where it's like, all right, just because I'm a Christian, it doesn't just automatically guarantee me a good life where everything goes right. And, yeah. And that's really, that's really hard and it brings up some big questions that you really have to wrestle with. And it's like, I think, I've kind of always believed just by default. No one's taught me this, but I think just by default that life's been quite easy up till then, I've just kind of equated that with like, well, that's because I'm a Christian and God's blessing my life, but actually when those things don't go well, you know, that throws that theology out of the window pretty fast. And yeah, and I don't think that's biblical at all. I don’t know where it comes from. It's just based in experience or is it bad teaching in churches? I don't know, but, you know, it's not theological, like Jesus said, like we will have trouble in this life and he didn't say he'd take away and make it all better for us. He said, he'd be with us in it. And that's been my experience. He's not taken the hard things away. He's not made them easy. He's not healed them all, but he has been with us in it. So we've not been without hope. And we felt carried in a way that you know, some of the stuff that I've been through, if you'd asked me before I'd been through it, I would've said I couldn't deal with that. I couldn't cope with that. I would walk away from my faith and it would just break me. I couldn't do that. Couldn't do that God. But having done it and walked through it with God, it's like, yeah, it makes me realize that actually that's where, you know, my faith's tested and hard things, isn't it? But actually, that's where it really comes into its own. And actually, I've encountered God in a much deeper way because I've needed to wrestle with all of those questions and I've needed, I've needed him in a deeper way and I've needed to find them in a more real way, in a more urgent kind of way. So yeah, it's kind of, it's weird. The thing that you would think, like pain and suffering would break your faith is actually been another thing that's really made it, reshaped it and actually, yeah, has deepened it in some ways. Like, I feel like, I don't know. You shouldn't say there, should you because you don't want to test the theory, but I don’t know if anything could break my faith now because what, you know, the worst has already happened, it's like the thing no woman wants to happen has happened. You know, the thing I said, I would hate that I can never deal with that has already happened. And I'm not saying therefore life won't throw more bad stuff at, you know, life can throw hard things at any of us at any time. And yeah, I think you're right. It's like we can't, we don't get to choose it. We're not in control. We like to think we are, but we're not. And actually, faith doesn't put us back in control. God's still, you know, God's still in control and actually just cause we pray hard or want something enough doesn't change the outcomes. Sometimes it does, but often it doesn't and that's okay. And I think sometimes God's got more to do when the outcomes don't change as well.
Matt Edmundson: No, it's very wise. Very, very wise. And so I'm just aware of time. I feel like we, we could talk about this a whole great deal longer. Let's just close out with, with this one thing we talked about this before, you know, I said to you, if there was, I asked you this question, I don’t know if you remember. If there was one piece of advice that you would give to Ben that you would want him to know growing up, what would it be? Your answer was, it's not a bad thing to have plans for life. Just hold them lightly. And I love this phrase that you came up with, write them in pencil.
Anna Kettle: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that's been the big lesson for me. It's like, I thought I'd get married at 21. I'd have a family at 25. You know it, yeah. We're just, I think our culture sells as this thing of like life just, you know, it's like this kind of, a path and it's so clearly defined for us of how life should look. And if that's what you buy into and are taught growing up and then things deviate in different ways, whether that's like miscarriage or a cancer diagnosis or long-term singleness, or just something happens that doesn't go to the plan. We, you know, we find that really difficult and actually God's got so many different plans for our lives and even if something goes off plan, he's still able to redeem it and yeah, that's why I say kind of hold your plan. It's not wrong to have plans. It's great. It's great to have ideas for how you'd like things to be. It's great to dream and have vision for the future. Isn't it? But just hold them lightly because when things don't go to plan, it's really disappointing and it's much easier if you're holding them lightly to just adjust and reframe and think, okay, well, that wasn't what I wanted. Like for me, you know, my thirties didn't really go as I wanted them to. Motherhood didn't really look; it didn't pan out the way I expected. I expected to have a house full of several kids by now. And that to be the thing that was consuming all my time and that hasn't happened. But then, I think I've got a lot of life ahead of me still. So it's a case of like pivot and okay, so motherhood didn't look quite how we expected it to, and my family isn't quite as full as I expected it to be, but what else would like, so what now? What's next? You know, and also were there other ways to lean into those things as well, that aren't just like about a nuclear biological family, that could be, could be fostering in the future? It could be having lodgers, like you do Matt, I know. It could be just having an open house and having people to stay short term, could just be like living in community with others. You know, like, yeah, we can think of things in a really narrow way. And maybe God's view of the world is just so much broader than like our narrow view of what our life path should look like. And we have this narrow kind of picture and he's like, no, it's so much broader and wider than that. And yeah, think those are the things that I wouldn't have been doing had all this stuff not happened. So we'd not be doing podcasts like this, about faith and miscarriage and life with you. You know, I wouldn't be writing books. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have set up a network for women who are dealing with miscarriage and infertility in our area, you know, yeah. It's that thing of what's next? And if you write things on pencil, they're easy to rub out and slightly rewrite and yeah, so that would be my advice. It would be, you know, be willing to pivot and not be too rigid about how I's going to look because we can't plan these things.
Matt Edmundson: Ah, fantastic. Fantastic. Well, Anna, thank you so much for being with us and sharing your story. It's been wonderful to chat with you, and if you're watching the podcast or listening to the podcast, however you're consuming this content, if anything, has connected with you or touched you or you'd want to reach out, you want someone to pray with you, you want just to talk through some stuff, you can reach us at Crowd Church or via our WhatsApp number. We would love to hear from you. And, let us know also what you think about the stories podcast, this new form of content that we're putting out there. We're going to be putting more stuff out, talking to more amazing people, just like Anna, digging into their stories and finding out how faith has affected them in the real world. So do make sure you like and subscribe and all of that good stuff to stay with us on the content, but for now, from myself and my incredibly brave and inspiring guest, Anna Kettle, thank you so much for joining us. Bless you. And I look forward to our next hosting together.
Anna Kettle: Definitely. Yeah. I look forward to it soon. It's fun.
Matt Edmundson: So there you have it. What a great story. Huge thanks again to Anna for joining me today. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from, because we have even more stories coming up, of faith and courage from everyday people lined up. They're all, they're all there and we don't want you to miss any of them. So make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from. And also while you're there, subscribe to the Crowd Church livestream or like it, follow it and all that good stuff, come say hi in the comments. We livestream 6:00 PM every Sunday from the UK, which is 1:00 PM Eastern Standard Time most of the time, you know, give or take the strange clock changes. And if you want to know what time that is for you and your country, on the website, we've got a great link which will tell you what time that broadcast is, do come and join us. And in case no one has told you today, you, my friend are awesome. Yes, you are. Utterly, utterly awesome. It's just the way that God's made you if I'm honest. The Bible says that we have been fearfully and wonderfully made. So you know what, as I like to say, it's a burden we all have to carry. You are awesome. Now what's the story is produced by Crowd Church, and you can find our entire archive of episodes on your favourite podcast app. And the team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, George McCague, Estella Robin, and Tim Johnson. Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson. And if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head over to the website, www.crowd.church, where you can also sign up for our newsletter.