When Having Everything Isn't Enough
Most of us are chasing a version of success we'll never quite find. Not because we're not good enough — but because the definition of success keeps moving.
A 2024 HSBC survey asked the British public to define "wealthy." The answer: £213,000 a year. That's 5.5 times the national average. Only 1% of the UK population earns more than £207,000. We've collectively agreed that success looks like something almost nobody achieves. And yet the striving continues.
In this week's talk, Crowd Leader Ade Birkby — engineer, physicist, and Bible college student — opens up Luke 19 and the story of Zacchaeus to ask what success is actually for.
The Most Powerful Man in the Room
Jericho was not a backwater town. In Jesus's day, it was a prosperous, well-positioned city — the kind of place where careers were made and wealth was built. And Zacchaeus had built plenty of it.
As chief tax collector, he sat at the top of the local power structure. Wealthy. Connected. Influential. He had everything the world said you were supposed to want. By any external measure, he had made it.
He was also, by all accounts, completely alone.
Tax collectors in first-century Judea were despised. They worked for the Roman occupiers and typically skimmed a percentage on top for themselves. Zacchaeus wasn't just rich — he was the head of the operation. The crowd that gathered to see Jesus passing through Jericho wasn't about to let him through. He was too short to see over the heads of people who actively wanted him to miss out.
So he ran ahead. Climbed a tree. A sycamore fig tree, specifically — which carried its own cultural weight. It was known colloquially as the "sin-spreading tree." Whatever possessed him to make that choice, Zacchaeus was now literally perched in a symbol of disgrace, trying to catch a glimpse of a travelling rabbi.
This is what isolation looks like. Not destitution. Not failure. The most successful man in Jericho, up a tree, on his own, hoping nobody notices.
Jesus Calls Him by Name
What happens next is, by any standard, scandalous.
Jesus stops. Looks up. And says: "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." (Luke 19:5)
Not "you there." Not "tax collector." His name. Jesus knew who he was and went to his house anyway.
The crowd was furious. "He has gone to be the guest of a sinner." (Luke 19:7) In that culture, sharing a meal meant acceptance, solidarity, endorsement. The religious people couldn't understand why Jesus would choose this man.
But Jesus didn't come to Jericho to validate the crowd's approval system. He came for the lost.
What Changed, and What Didn't
"But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, 'Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.'" (Luke 19:8)
Notice what Jesus didn't do. He didn't demand Zacchaeus give anything. He didn't issue conditions before coming for dinner. He didn't tell him to quit his job. Zacchaeus responded out of something that had shifted inside him — not out of guilt, obligation, or pressure.
He also kept his job. He just decided to do it differently.
This matters. Because one of the things Ade addresses head-on is a misreading of Scripture that has done a lot of damage: the idea that ambition, hard work, and earned success are somehow suspicious. They're not.
In Matthew 25, Jesus tells the parable of the talents. Two servants invest what they've been given and are commended. The third buries his in the ground out of fear and is rebuked. Productive, honest work is not a problem to be solved. It's part of the picture.
Ephesians 4:28 puts it plainly: "Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need."
Work honestly. So you have something to share. The purpose of productivity is community.
Leviticus 19 makes the same point in agricultural terms: "When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner." (Leviticus 19:9-10)
The landowner isn't told to feel guilty for having a harvest. They're told to leave the edges for others. The fruit of success is meant to reach beyond the one who earned it.
Conversation Street
"What does sharing your skills and money look like in your own lives?"
Ade reflected on the fact that the same skills he uses as an engineer and presenter — explaining complex things clearly, structuring an argument — are the skills he's now using to teach Scripture. Nothing changed about the skills. What changed was the direction they were pointed.
Anna spoke about keeping an open home and an open diary. Not just generosity with money, but with time and space — making room for people when it costs something.
Dave talked about time as the most precious resource. He shared a story about a homeless man he encounters near a Tesco — someone he now knows by name, whose preferred coffee and sandwich order he knows. It's a small thing. It cost him time and attention, not just money. That's what giving with cost looks like.
"I struggle to give because I feel I should rather than because I want to. How do I find the balance?"
Ade didn't offer a quick fix to Ellis. He talked about going through eighteen months of reading his Bible out of discipline alone — not desire, not feeling, just showing up because he'd decided to. He was in a hard season personally and spiritually. But he kept going. And eventually, the feeling followed. He signed up for Bible college. The wanting came after the doing.
"Fake it till you make it" isn't a phrase that normally belongs in theological discussion, but Ade used it honestly — and it fits.
Dave added something worth keeping: "Only when our hearts are changed do our feelings begin to change." Discipline has become an unfashionable word. But the Scriptures are full of people who acted before they felt ready — and found the feelings caught up.
Sharon added a final thread worth holding onto: what we give our attention to shapes what we want. We're not stuck with our current desires. They're more malleable than we think.
What This Might Look Like
Ade closed with three questions:
Are we searching for Jesus with the same determination Zacchaeus showed? He ran ahead. He climbed a tree. He made himself look ridiculous. The searching was active, not passive.
Are we willing to push through the obstacles — the crowd, the distance, the awkwardness — to get closer?
When Jesus calls, are we responding immediately? Zacchaeus came down at once.
And for the practical bit — the Zacchaeus response:
Name something you've held onto too tightly. Not to guilt yourself, but to notice it.
Give something this week that costs you something. Time, money, skill, attention. The cost is part of the gift.
Show up before you feel like it. Discipline before desire. The feelings are downstream.
Start with what you already have. Ade used engineering skills to teach theology. Anna used her home. Dave used a coffee order. You don't need a new resource — you need a new direction for the one you've got.
A Closing Thought
Zacchaeus didn't find what he was looking for by accumulating more. He found it the moment he was known — called by name, welcomed, included. That's what changed him.
Success isn't wrong. The drive to build, create, earn, and achieve is part of how we're made. But it was never designed to be the destination. It was always meant to be the fuel for something wider.
If you're in a season where having more hasn't made you feel like enough, you're not alone — and you're in good company with a short tax collector up a tree in first-century Jericho.
Jesus came to his house. He comes to ours too.
This talk is part of our current series, Jesus the Revolutionary. You can watch the full episode on the Crowd Church website or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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# Transcript
> Speaker: Ade Birkby | Hosts: Anna Kettle, Dave Connolly
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Anna: Good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. It's great to be here tonight. I am joined by Dave Connolly.
Dave: Hi, Anna, how are you doing?
Anna: Good. Have you had a good week?
Dave: I have a lovely week, really enjoying the weather and, yeah, just plenty of time to do whatever it is I needed to do.
Anna: Yeah, it's been nice to have a week of sunshine, although it seems like it's about to end. Oh no, I know, I know, the weather's looking a bit— and we always talk about the weather here, it's not a weather forecast. but yeah, it is about to take a turn for the worst, I believe. But you know, for anyone who's outside of the northwest of England, you know, it's quite rare to get a really hot week, isn't it? So we get excited about these things. Enjoy it. Yeah, exactly. Well, we could chit-chat about the weather in our weeks, and you know, we were just talking about North Wales. Actually, interesting fact for everyone, that brings me into introducing our Speaker tonight, Ade, a second, is that I've been in North Wales for the weekend, I've been on holiday for a few days with my family, and, we actually met in real life earlier today, Ade and I and his wife Sonia and my family. And yeah, it was the first time we'd met in person rather than just over Crowd Church. So it's like, wow, Crowd Church friends becoming in real life friends.
Dave: So yeah, really seeing each other.
Anna: Yeah, so that this is, this is like, yeah It's exciting. So I'm going to pass over to Ade now, and yeah, my officially in real life friend now, but he's doing the talk for us tonight. And so yeah, Ade, I'll pass over to you. I think we don't have sound. We'll just give that a second. Ah, we have him. Okay, passing over to you again, Ade.
Ade: Got stuck in the green room again. That's local insiders, the techies in the background. So yes, it was wonderful to meet you in person. And yeah, we're slowly building up a list of people we're meeting who come from Liverpool and spend some time in North Wales, where let's face it, it is just beautiful here.
Anna: Yeah.
Ade: We're so lucky to be here. But tonight we're not going to talk about North Wales. Well, let's leave that for conversation straight. Tonight we are going to talk about success. Now, when I started preparing this, the working title I had was The Price of Success, but by the time I got to the end of it, it was really The Purpose of Success. And so let me just take a moment to think about the typical definition, the dictionary definition of success. We get phrases like accomplishment of goals, attainment of wealth, prosperity, favorable outcome of ventures. Now, from a societal point of view and culturally, we tend to associate success either directly or indirectly with wealth. Yeah, typically the rich and the famous. And when it comes to wealth, the UK bank, the HSBC, did a survey in 2024 to just get a feel for what do people think wealthy was? And the number they came up with was £213,000 a year for an income. Now, this is 5.5 times our national average. If you look at stats, you find 4% of this country earn over £100,000, 1% over £207,000. So we're getting into the fraction of a percentage is what we design. We, have categorized wealthy as what we would see success in wealth as. Now, success comes at a price. If you think about it from a career point of view or a sporting point of view or pretty much any venture, there's higher stress. The higher you climb, the higher the stress, the greater the expectations, the more time you're taken away from family and friends. And this in itself almost leads to increased isolation and in some cases burnout. And we think, okay, well, people who are really, really wealthy and successful, they don't worry about this, you know, these financial stresses that the rest of us do. Well, actually, studies have shown that the really wealthy actually really worry about losing their wealth. They worry about losing their standing, their perception. They also worry about their friends really just after them for their money and not for who they are. So, excuse me, we are going to have a look at a particularly successful individual in the Book of Luke, a guy called Zacchaeus, who was a tax collector. Now, it's quite a short passage. It's Luke 19:1-10. So if I can stop coughing, I am going to read this. Well, actually, apologies, I'm going to read this anyway. So starting at verse 1: Jesus entered Jericho and made his way through the town. There was a man there named Zacchaeus. He was the chief tax collector in the region, and he had become very rich. He tried to get a look at Jesus, but he was too short to see over the crowd, so he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore fig tree beside the the road, for Jesus was going to pass that way. When Jesus came by, he looked up at Zacchaeus and called him by name. "Zacchaeus," he said, "come down. I must be a guest in your home today." Zacchaeus quickly climbed down and took Jesus to his house in great excitement and joy. But the people were displeased. "He has gone to be the guest of a notorious sinner," they grumbled. Meanwhile, Zacchaeus stood before the Lord and said to him, "I will give half my wealth to the poor, Lord, and if I've cheated people on their taxes, I will give them back 4 times as much." Jesus responded, "Salvation has come to this home today, for this man has shown himself to be a true son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost." So just to set the scene here, Jericho was a very desirable place to live. It was a prime toll center for the region. It was known as the city of palm trees. It was incredibly rich. It's also a very powerful and strategic city. It was a major exporter of balsam. There were abundant springs. There were fertile lands. This was an agricultural hub and trade center. This was not a backwater town. This was the place to be.
Dave: Be.
Ade: And being at the top of his game as a tax collector here rather than some backwater town, that made him a big fish in a big sea. Now, Zacchaeus, we don't know too much from that passage, but we do know that first of all, his name means pure. He is a man of small stature, and he is a chief tax collector. Now, this would have presented him a number of problems with his fellow Jews. For a start, he was a Jew working for Romans, so he was working for the oppressor. He would have been considered an outcast. In fact, he would have been considered ritually unclean. His tithes would not have been accepted in the temple. In fact, he wasn't allowed to partake in any of their rituals. And on top of that, he would have also been disdained for overtaxing people, because the Roman system of taxes were the Roman wanted— Romans wanted a certain amount of tax, and this would have been based on initially the land you own, the business you conducted, the number of people in your family. And they had a number, no one else knew what it was, but the tax collectors were allowed to add whatever they wanted on top of that, so, you know, to keep them going. And they notoriously added a lot of money onto that. They extorted the people. Now, they had, you know, Roman soldiers there to enforce these taxes, so the people really had no choice but to pay and be extorted. So he'd been hated for that as well. So he's most— on one hand, he's one of the most prominent men in Jericho. Now, we assume that he's really good at his job because he's a chief tax collector, not just a tax collector. We can also assume the guy is middle-aged or older because it would have taken him time to get here. But this is a guy who who is— we'll say he's on par with today's millionaire. He's someone who's made it. He's rich in wealth, however he is poor in status, and, he did not belong. He was— he would have been incredibly lonely. So he has this amazing encounter with Jesus. So for a start, despite his wealth, something drives him to go out there and see Jesus as he's passing through. So, assuming he's got it all, he doesn't really, and he also wasn't going to be held back by the crowd or being small in stature. So he climbs a tree, and we, we assume that was probably the most efficient course of action. He could have tried to push through the crowd, but let's face it, he was a really unpopular guy and he's physically very small. By the time he got to the front, Jesus would probably have passed by. He's rich, he could have tried to bribe, but again, that probably would have taken too long. So this guy, who's likely middle-aged or older, and he's wearing a robe, he does a desk job for a living, he climbs a tree. So, you know, that's something we can assume he does not do very often, but, you know, he was that driven to go and get a glimpse of Jesus, he climbed a tree. Now we don't know if he was really thinking through and aware of the type of tree he was climbing, but in Jewish culture, sycamore fig tree is known as the sin-spreading tree due to its dense canopy. The idea is any sin committed underneath it actually can pass to all people on the tree. Now, if you have a whole row of these things and they're all overlapping, it can pass to anyone who's under any of these trees. In fact, they were always about keeping these things within your boundary. Either way, he saw he had a problem, he saw a solution, and he acted straight away. Again, these are one of the reasons probably why he was good at his job. You know, being a motivated problem solver is an important ingredient in a successful career. And then comes the encounter. Jesus walks by and he instantly calls, and right away, Zacchaeus answers. He doesn't hang around. He doesn't get swayed by the comments of the crowd. And ultimately, he, you know, he is open to hearing the harsh truth and reality that he is a sinner. But he doesn't waste time here. He jumps again, not wasting time, being time efficient, another important trait of being a successful person. And then after having spent this one short time period with Jesus, he gives away half his possessions. Now, Jesus did not ask him to do that. He just, off his own bat, recognized he was a sinner, recognized he needed to make changes, and said, look, I'm giving away half my possessions, and anyone I've cheated, I will repay them back fourfold. Now, interestingly, he also, as far as we know from this, he also remained in his successful job. He wasn't asked to leave it, and he didn't feel convicted to leave it. So he's still a Jew working for the Romans. As I said, Jesus did not tell him to leave it, but you know, we obviously would assume going forward that he would have taxed people fairly, and given his position in that system, you know, maybe he had the opportunity to change the system for more people. But the crucial point here is his success now benefits people other than himself. They benefit the community, for the people who he'd given half his possessions to, for the people who he had repaid, for the people who going forward he would have taxed at a more reasonable rate, and possibly for any positive changes he brought to that system in Jericho. So honest success, is not unbiblical. I mean by that, by honest, fair work for a fair reward. And Jesus talks about this in Matthew 25, the parable of the talents, where a master gives 5 talents to one worker, 2 talents to another, and 1 to a third worker. The master then goes away for a period of time and comes back, and the gentleman who had 5 has invested, worked hard, and made another 5. And the same with the one who had 2, he then made another 2. And they were rewarded, you know, well done, good and faithful servant. Now the guy who's given one chose to do nothing with it. He didn't even put it in the bank for interest, and he's cast into darkness, and his talent is given to the one who did well with five. So we can see from this that hard work resulting in success is rewarded, not punished. We can also see from this that some of us will be given more opportunities than others for success. And it doesn't stop here. Paul, in his letter to the Ephesians, says in 4:28, "Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands so that he may have something to share with anyone in need." So the results of the work aren't just for the worker, they are to be shared where it is needed. And this practice goes all the way back to Leviticus in chapter 9, verses 9 to 10: When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner. I am the Lord your God. So what we can see here is the honest success is a biblical principle, hard work being rewarded. It is not just for us, we are the steward of its benefits and we are to use it to help others who need help. And some of us will have more opportunities for success than others. It really means they will have more opportunities to bless and support others. So taking these ideas and looking inward, are we searching with vigor like Zacchaeus was? And Jesus isn't walking down the main street of our respective towns and villages here is: are we reading Scripture daily? Are we praying daily? Are we meeting with other believers? Are we overcoming obstacles to these things, or are we just making excuses? And then, are we answering immediately? And that can be, you know, prompting from the Holy Spirit, you know, are we listening for that? But also Biblical instruction— there are plenty of very simple guidelines that we are told to do. Are we answering those? 1 John 3:17: If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? And finally, are we acting with love? Are we sharing that success where we have it, the benefits of that success? And that doesn't actually have to be only financial, it can be some of the skills that we have built up as well. Are we using those to serve those in our church, in our community around us? Our community here is really central. We are not meant to be alone. We are not meant to be successful alone. Hebrews 10:25, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some. But encouraging one another. And that's our role in this. We are here to encourage one another as we, as we wait on God, as we study his word. And that is where I would like to bring this to a close tonight. Thank you.
Anna: Great, thanks so much, Ade. That is, Just so much in there. Really great. what did you think, Dave? Any immediate things that jump out?
Dave: Yeah, I, I just love the story. I love the delivery, you know, the things you brought out there. And, I think the thing that always stands out just about— here's a guy who's got everything but no one to share it with, and he— but he knows he's lacking something. And yet, you know, he climbs the tree almost still hidden, but Jesus is coming along. He's going somewhere, and Jesus stops and calls him by name. And I just think there's something wonderful whenever Jesus stops and there's a beginning of a conversation. He calls him by name. Just amazing.
Anna: Because there's something about Jesus's presence, isn't there? And when he, when he encounters Zacchaeus, that it actually changed— like, his response is so counterculture. Like, he completely does a 360— well, a 180, not 360, that would be the same direction. a 180. Maths was never my strong point. he does complete 180 though, doesn't he? Like, in terms of where he was on money and wealth and success. And actually, when he comes into the presence of Jesus, he's like— it's not that Jesus tells him, but he's instantly— I find it really interesting that he's instantly convicted.
Dave: Yeah.
Anna: And he feels it necessary to give half his money away and to repay all those that he'd swindled, and to change his ways and to be more generous and honest with money. To use his wealth to sort of benefit many, not just himself. And I, I think, isn't that interesting, that, that it's just that sheer encounter of being in Jesus's presence? Jesus hadn't told him to do that. No one's said, oh, you're really bad, you're, you're living like this. It's just the very coming face to face with who Jesus is changes him. I find that incredible.
Dave: We see it repeatedly, don't we, in all these stories that we get in the gospels, you know. but it's the counterculture Jesus, isn't it? Oh, Jesus the revolutionary, eh? And, you know, he— everybody hates Zacchaeus. They despise him, you know, even though he's got everything. They just despise him. And yet Jesus, he's the one that Jesus wants to talk to. And he says to him, Again, I find it's really moving. Jesus says to him, come down because I'm coming to your house. That's the last place anybody wants to go to. Yeah, to that level of association, you know. And, and then, you know, we see what happens. I, I'm so thankful that we don't know what the conversation was between Jesus and Zacchaeus. Otherwise, men being men, or mankind being mankind, humans being humans, we would have made a programme out of it, but we don't hear, but we see the fruits of repentance, which Aidé brought out wonderfully.
Anna: Mm. Yeah, absolutely. And I loved— the other bit that I really loved about what Aidé shared was just this whole idea that when we work and what we earn and what we create with our hands and, you know, everything that we have, all this success, all the money that we earn, is for sharing, and it's not just for our own benefit, but it's for the benefit of wider community. And I love that. And you see it so often with, like, you know, business people who are Christian, where they, you know, not, not just Christians, but often Christians are particularly good at it, give a lot of their money away. And actually, yeah, just that real challenge that's there in the Bible quite a lot about, sharing with those in need. And it's so counterculture to what we often see in the world, right? We see these I don't want to pick on anyone, but these Elon Musks or Kardashian-type characters that are on TV screens, you know, the big tech bros in America. And you just think they are not benefiting everyone with their wealth. They're benefiting, well, mainly themselves and a few people who work for them right at the top. And we do live in a world, don't we, today where the richer are getting richer, like, and that gap between the richest and poorest is actually getting bigger in a lot of our societies.
Dave: Yeah.
Anna: Smaller. And, yeah, and I just think it's so— it is so counterculture. Jesus is a revolutionary. What he teaches here and what he demonstrates is so counterculture to what we see about very successful rich people today. And, you know, it's easy to sit and criticize people, isn't it? Because I don't have that kind of money to give away if I wanted to, you know. It's— but nonetheless, I think it's just not what we see a lot of people build more wealth for themselves, for their own gain, don't they?
Dave: I think giving is— it, for me, it has to come with a cost, you know. So, I think, you know, the culture at the time— I think Middle Eastern culture is very different than, than our own, and not just historically. I think even today it was very reciprocal. So like, I have some Farsi friends And, you know, if you ever invite them out around from a— come around for a meal, well, you can't even get it in your diary until you've told them when you're going to their house. So, you know, because it's reciprocal, it's not one-upmanship, it's we want to participate in this, and they'll bring stuff. And I think we— I see something lovely about a society, a culture of reciprocation and value. And, and as you're saying, that we share what we have. and it should cost. You know, I think, you know, if you've got— I don't know, these figures are beyond me, like, you know, £10 million in the bank, to give somebody £10,000, it is still significant, but it probably isn't to you. You know, so I think, you know, giving is about reciprocation. But what I see in Zacchaeus is fruits of repentance. The very thing that was an idol to him, that like was like a god, finance stuff, you know, that he got from doing, from his job. That's what he surrendered, you know. And I think we need to know what it is to surrender those things that are idols in our lives, you know, that we count so important. Let's share them. I bet those people were terrified when he started doing that, you know. What's the catch? Zak, yes, you're going to tax me more next time.
Anna: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? We've got a few comments here on the feed that I'll just pull up as well. So we've got quite a bit of people on the feed here. So we've got Alicia, Ellis, Rach, Sharon, Ros, Sonia, MJS Player, it's the ID, Catherine. So we've got a number of people listening in live on the feed. And one comment I've got is here from Alicia says, there was so much fascinating context here in Ade's talk. I knew Zacchaeus was was hated but didn't realize the connection between his work and the oppression of Rome. hi Ade, Anna, Dave. What does sharing your skills and money, etc., look like in your own lives? That's from Sharon. Oh, there's a big buzz on that.
Ade: It's gone.
Anna: Fine, it's gone. So did everyone catch that? So what does sharing your skills and money look like in your own lives? That's a question from Sharon. Any thoughts, guys?
Dave: What about, what about you, Ade?
Ade: The fact I'm here right now, you know, so I am an engineer and a physicist. I often talk to people who don't know a thing about technical anything and convince them this is a really good thing to do for the business. So actually speaking in front of people, that's something I do quite comfortably. And so having been a Christian for a number of years, studied the Bible for a number of years, and more recently in Bible college, it's coming here and taking what I do for a day job but with, you know, a theological and scriptural context rather than a scientific context. Yeah, that's an example of skills.
Anna: Yeah, that's, that's a really good, good part of it. I, I think, yeah, I, I feel the same. I, I feel like a large part of being generous is like, for me, it's being generous, yeah, with our money, but also with our time and our resources. So, you know, like me and my husband Andy, we like to like open our house, you know, open our, yeah, just our space or our diary, our lives to people. And I think, yeah, that can be money because sometimes people have financial needs, but also it's giving people things to borrow when they need them, or being like, come stay in our house the weekend we're away, or, or come and have a meal with us, you're on your own. Or yeah, it can be really just a little practical things. But I think you're right, Dave, it's about a generosity of heart. And yeah, for me, that's a really important part of it. It's about being generous with whatever we— whatever we're blessed with, in whatever way. Like, use my car, use my time, you know. But also, you're right, Ada, it is about time as well, like, and your skills. So, you know, doing things like this or whatever we're good at, giving it, giving it, to the purposes of God and to bless other people as well.
Dave: I think time is really important because, you know, once—
Anna: having a few sound issues tonight. Bear with us, folks, we'll keep going.
Ade: So one of the things I quite like about this passage is, and this is where we see Jesus really being a revolutionary.
Dave: I think, you know, with time, it's the most precious thing that we have. Which affects all the other things. But, you know, once that time is spent, it's gone. Yeah, you, you know, you just don't get that back. And, and I, I think it's wonderful to spend time with people. Some people are easier to spend time with than others. Well, you know, I would just encourage people that when we're with people, to give them our best, give them our concentration, put our phones away, you know, you know, type of thing. It's horrible when you're talking with somebody, and, and, and they change— they're looking at the phone. And I know they might be waiting for a kidney transplant or something, but most of us aren't, you know. Let's give people our undivided attention.
Anna: Yeah, that's a really good point. I've got another comment here on the feed, which is, from Alicia. She says, this was a refreshingly nuanced take on what success is especially for people of faith. So it's not just about what, what can be done with money, but how you employ your other gifts. Yeah, I think we just covered that, but really good point. I thought as well, an interesting point, that Ade made was about how, like, we're called to steward what we're given, but not everybody's given the same amount. So like, some people are given more to steward than others. And that's interesting, isn't it? Because sometimes you can look at it from a human perspective and be like, well, why have they been given so much money or resource or opportunity? Because they're not actually using it as well as I might think I would do in their shoes. I'm not saying I would, but you know, when you're like, sometimes there's that thing, isn't it? Like, why doesn't God give just good people? Like, all of that stuff. But Espe Zacchaeus is like a great example of, yeah, actually anyone has that potential when they encounter Jesus. but I just wondered if you had any thoughts about that, Ade, while you were prepping the talk, like that whole idea of we're not all given the same, you know, in terms of stewardship.
Ade: yeah, absolutely. I, personally, I'm blessed enough to have been born into a Christian family. My parents loved each other, they loved the Lord, they stayed together. I came from a stable family. I was able to go to a polytech and study engineering and science, live at home, commute to that, so not have racked massive debts, and then go on to a career in science and engineering, which is a, you know, it's a generally jobs are reliable. I could have chosen a completely different career path and not had anything like the number of opportunities I had today, whilst having worked equally hard at that career path. So some of it is the blessings I was born into, some of it is the work I've done with the opportunities I've been given, and some of it is just the choices I've made. There's so many things there. And also, we pray that God will open the right doors, close the wrong doors and everything. But Sonia and I, there must be, there must be that as well.
Anna: Yeah, I think that's really helpful, and it's a really helpful perspective. Like, yeah, it's interesting. Go on, Dave.
Dave: We're only to steward that which God has given us. I'm looking from, you know, the God side of things. We're just accountable for that, and, you know, when people say to me, you know, like, maybe, let's say faith, Dave, you know, will you pray that God gives me more faith? And my normal response is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but it usually goes something like, 'What are you doing with what he's given you? If you want more faith, use what you have.' And when we talk about stewarding, whether it be gifts or resources, we just need to know that we do it for the glory of God and at the same time generally being a blessing to other people. But we will be— stewardship is all about being accountable, whether it be even our families, like our kids, We, we, you know, we steward that, you know, and I think we just forget sometimes that there is a, a day of reckoning where we have, you know, stewarding. God says, what have you done with it?
Anna: Yeah, I think that's it. That's a challenge for us all, isn't it? And I, I feel like some— so much of this for me is about heart posture and holding things lightly. So Yeah, whether it's your children or your time or your resources or your, like, money in your bank account.
Ade: It's—
Anna: for me, it's like knowing that the earth is the Lord's and everything in it. And actually, everything I own, everything I own, everything I have is, you know, as, as Ade touched on, is from God, it's for God, it's back to God in the end. You know, we're all given different starts and chances in life and different opportunities, but actually God just expects us to have a good posture of generosity and stewarding as best we're able to what he gives to us. And I think, yeah, you know, just holding things quite lightly and not clinging to things too tight is really helpful for me.
Dave: I'm not sure whether it's just our— the day in which we live, but it's a little bit like, I want that. And we spend so much time looking at what we don't have or what somebody else has that we miss what we've been entrusted with, and because our attention is somewhere else, so we don't really do that stewarding that well. And but I love that phrase about posturing. It is all about our heart because, you know, God knows it. And whilst we may be able to fool ourselves at times, we never fool God. God knows what our heart is and our heart responses to things.
Anna: I've got a few more comments coming through on the feed. So Ellis says, one thing I struggle with when it comes to sharing and giving is doing it because I feel like I should rather than because I want to. I struggle to find the balance with that. yeah, I think that's— it's a really good point. I think it is difficult, isn't it, to feel like I ought to give rather than I want— I genuinely want to.
Ade: Yeah.
Anna: Do you have any thoughts on that, Dave?
Dave: Well, I remember just a few months ago we were sat here and we were— we were at this very, this very conversation. Yeah, I think for me it's always been hold things lightly, you know. And when I'm sowing into things, I'm giving, you know, I might give to this person, but in fact, you know, I'm actually—
Anna: it's God.
Dave: I'm doing on behalf of God. So at our local Tesco, there's, there's a, there's a lovely guy, and I know his name, and he's really amused I know his name. And I'm like, well, why wouldn't I? You know, I ask you it all the time. And I know what he likes. He likes coffee and he likes a certain sandwich, etc., etc. And I will just get him them, not because I'm anything, you know, it's not gonna bust my bank to do that because I don't want him to even have to ask me, you know. I want to see any and I want to be able to respond. And, yeah, you know, and I just— it comes back to what you said, it's this thing of our heart. Just, you know, our heart on giving, giving freely. You know, people, you know, ask you for money, you know, and you might give them something, and, and somebody else say, you know, you shouldn't have done that, they could go and buy drugs with that, they could go and do such and such. And you know what, they could, but I'm giving them, I'm just wanting to bless them, I'm giving them what they've asked for. And, you know, we can find that in scripture as well, you know. but I just think, you know, let's give generously and freely. When we give it, let go of it, you know. Don't— you mustn't spend it on this, but give it and be a blessing.
Anna: Definitely. A couple more comments that have come through. So Alicia said also, I think one point about how some are wealthy and can be afraid of reversal of, you know, not having their money anymore, like losing their wealth, or, or possibly, people only caring about them for their wealth or their success or power or whatever. I think she said that's really good, and that's very, you know, it's a good point, and that's a very fearful way to live. And, and I think that's true, and I think we can be fearful, can't we, whether we've got much or little when it comes to money.
Dave: Yeah.
Anna: And actually, some of it is just about perspective, like whether you've got much or little, trusting that God provides, and actually Everything is his. And yeah, again, that encounter with Jesus changes your perspective because money is not your God. God is your God.
Dave: Yeah, I mean, we're all blessed, aren't we, that, you know, we have— most of us, and, you know, in this room, you know, we, we have generally, I think, you know, what we need. You know, it's, it's not that there aren't things that we want. Yeah, that we haven't got, you know, But we generally, you know, have what we need. And I think, but if I was to go and give somebody, you know, 20 quid, you know, I mean, I, I would probably want to give them more than that because I want to feel the bite. I want to feel the cost of doing that, not so I can feel good, but so I can feel that cost. And I want them to be blessed significantly. And what they do with it is beyond you know, beyond me. But I also want to be dependent on God, you know, for my finances, you know. And we talk about in the church or being full-time or, you know, living by faith. Well, you know, I think if you work in the Ford Motor Company, you're living by faith. Whatever we do, we need to live by faith, and it's God's blessing that we've even got that job.
Anna: Yeah, yeah. Any more thoughts from you, Ade? I'm aware that you're over in North Wales, but we still want to hear from you.
Dave: Yeah, shout.
Anna: She's just not in this physical studio with us. Yeah, shout from North Wales.
Dave: Yeah, we'll talk all night, just me.
Anna: Yeah, it's just hard to get a word in between me and Dave, that's all.
Ade: I have noticed that. I think, I think one of the things to remind you about, you know, but the difference between feeling I should do something, whereas I want to. You got to start somewhere and you have clear guidance in the Bible to meet together, to study the Bible, to pray, to support the helpless. And sometimes you just have to, it's almost fake it till you make it, right? There's an instruction here I should do. I don't feel like doing it. But do it anyway. And I think I've gone through— it's only in the last 6 months, I think, I've come out of a rut where I actually want to read the Bible. I've been reading it daily anyway, but because all the stuff that we've been going through in our personal lives, it's like, right, this time I do this. I don't feel like it, but I'm going to do it. And it got to a point where I thought, you know what, I'm going to do it. I think I'm going to do this even better, and I'm going to sign up to an online Bible college. But up until that, and now, you know, it's— I've kind of gone through that phase now where I want to, I can't wait till the next time, I'm just kind of learning so much. But I had to go through a good 18 months. Yeah, let's say a good 18 months of just doing it because I knew I should be doing it, being very open in my conversation with God that I'm doing this because I should. I'd like to want to do this, but right now I just, you know, I just don't feel that. I just don't feel much of anything. If we do that with the right heart and we ask God to help us through it, we will come to a place where we do want to do these things. But very often we have to put in the work to get ourselves there.
Dave: Yeah, it's one of the— this, it's discipline, isn't it? Which isn't really much of a 21st century word because we all like to do what we want to do.
Anna: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because it's— yeah, it's like, like you say, that fake it till you make it thing. And I love your honesty about your situation, Ade, the fact that sometimes it is a choice and Yeah, and the feelings sort of come later, and sometimes they're quicker, aren't they? And I think we've all got different examples of, yeah, how sometimes you kind of just have to make the first step and Jesus moves towards you. But then sometimes there's situations like Zacchaeus where Jesus literally steps towards him and he, you know, he calls him down out of his tree. It wasn't that Zacchaeus stepped towards Jesus, but Jesus went— he called him out, didn't he, and said 'Hey, I want to speak to you.' Yeah. So yeah, I think it can be both ways, and, and it's okay. And I think it's really honest to be like, 'I don't really feel like doing this, but as I do it, because I know it's the right thing to do, God, would you change my heart?' And, you know, and Ade's example is that over time that has been his experience. And I think I've got examples of that as well, and mine wasn't necessarily about reading the Bible, but I, you know, I went— I've been through seasons where I didn't really want to pray. I didn't really want to talk to God sometimes, because of, you know, different difficult situations. But I think when you kind of take a step towards God, I think he steps towards you. It's like there's a Bible verse that's like, you know, draw near to God and he'll draw near to you. And I, I think it is sometimes there is that two-way process.
Dave: I mean, when you read these stories, like, that they are so personal, whether it be Zacchaeus or, the woman caught in adultery or the one with the issue of blood. You know, the gospels are just full of these things where, whether Jesus calls them by name, somewhere in that interaction they become deeply personal and life-changing. They're heart-changing, aren't they? and I think only when our hearts are changed do our feelings get changed. That's pretty good, I must write that down.
Anna: only when I say it again, Dave.
Dave: Only when our hearts get changed do our feelings begin to change. Yeah, you know, and, and I think that would be really true, you know, for me. I'm quite a persistent person, so again, you know, just doing something until I get that longing, because I know it's good. It's like, you know, lots of things in life are good, aren't they? Like go in the gym, eat well, you know, you know, in a big list, and we all know what's good. But we need the discipline to do them, and to do them continually and consistently.
Anna: Yeah. And it's— I love the, just, just reflecting on this story. The thing that really sticks out to me is that it's Jesus' presence that changes our perspective. And so I think however, however you get to be in Jesus's presence, whether that's he pursues you, you have to persistently pursue him, even when you don't feel like it, like Ade's example, like, that encounter with Jesus is what changes your perspective and changes your life, really. So, I think it's worth, you know, that persistence, that discipline, that wrestle, if it needs to be, to get to that place.
Dave: I think sometimes we get a bit afraid of silence, you know, and with our walk with God. We think, you know, as he goes quiet, where he's just trying to create a space for us to maybe just think, what is it that God is saying? What is it I am wanting? What is it I'm wanting to communicate to him? And, it's just, it's just always there, and he's always intimate with us. And when he speaks, when he acts, you know, when he reaches out, You know, that was so profound what happens to Zak. I just love it, you know. And that the very thing that was his idol, it was broken. Because you can't break the idol in somebody's life and then hold on to the money. I'll tell you what, you can borrow me donkey. That's not— that doesn't cut it. He breaks the idol, which is the final, and he starts to restore what he's taken from people.
Anna: Yeah, I think, I think it's, it goes back to that, Firstly, like, it— like, Aid mentioned it actually during his talk. It was— I noted it down. It was 1 John 3, where it sort of says, how can the love of God be in that person, that person who doesn't share what they have with others and meet people's needs? And that's really challenging, isn't it? Like, if you're not generous, if you're not sharing what you have with others, how can the love of God really be in you? It's like, oh wow, that's, that's tough. And yeah, I think, wow. But it's that encounter with the love of God that enables you to do that. That— it was, it was Jesus' love that called Zacchaeus down from the tree. Like, he saw him, he loved him, he called him out.
Dave: Yeah.
Anna: And that, that encounter with Jesus' love enabled him to, you know, it was having Jesus' love inside of him, wasn't it, that created that transformation? And then out of that came transformation to other people's lives and the community around him, people they worked with and you know, collected taxes from. But yeah, I—
Dave: and it was natural. Yeah, wasn't it? It was like the overflow. That's the word. Yeah, I thought I, I couldn't get it right, but it is out of the overflow. It was the natural response of encountering the presence and the power of Jesus. And you're like, I didn't have to think it all through. He didn't have to go away and lay a fleece. He, you know, we don't know exactly what the time frame, but It's not long, he's in a tree, he's out of a tree, he's walking to his house, he's having dinner with Jesus. Yeah. You know, and I bet you those people like were, you know, who were outside, people being people, I wonder what's going on in there, you know. And they were waiting, you know, maybe, maybe waiting for the pound of flesh or for Jesus to come out and say, I've sorted them out. But it's what Zacchaeus says that is so impacting. which is amazing.
Anna: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. Any more thoughts from you, Ade?
Ade: Yeah, I think a key thing to pick up on here is it doesn't matter who you are.
Dave: Yes.
Ade: What you've done, what you think you've done. Zacchaeus, as I mentioned, he was, you know, he was the lowest of the low in one sense culturally. So if you look in the New Testament, there are numerous lists of sinners and tax collectors, tax collectors and prostitutes. They're down there with you know, the lowest dregs of society at that time. That's how low they think of them. And then, and so this lowly, lowly guy then decided to go and climb the sin-spreading tree where some of that probably rubbed off on him on the way up. And, you know, the revolutionary thing happening here is he is the last person that Jesus should have picked out. It should have been someone else, maybe a Pharisee or religious leader or a really nice guy. Didn't. Took someone that society hated, and he was, he was on the manky sin tree.
Dave: That's right.
Ade: That's the one. He said, I'm coming home with you. That's great.
Anna: And that is so challenging, isn't it? Like, because we, we so often want to, I don't know, discard people, or we assume people are, or they're beyond saving, or they're, you know, they don't deserve it. And our judgment is so often not God's judgment, you know, like, yeah, sorry, Ade, go and carry on.
Ade: I say it's a bit like in your typical Hollywood film where a good guy goes to prison, everyone hates him, he walks up to the biggest, baddest dude in the whole place and picks a fight to change the entire atmosphere to suit him. You've got to wonder, having people that— the crowd, they were watching, they were seeing this, they see the lowest of the low on the monkey tree going for Jesus, and then 'Cause, you know, 'cause word of mouth spreads, they're gonna hear he's given stuff away. Some of them will have seen it. And, you know, what we don't see here is the actual impact that must have had in Jericho. That would have been, that would have been right around the city. This is unheard of. I mean, anyone who worked for him must have been quaking in their boots thinking, right, we're gonna have to skim less off the top from now on. But it's, yeah, you know, this is massive. It's unfortunate that, you know, we just don't see beyond that in this text.
Anna: Yeah. A few final comments coming through on the feed that I'll just read out because there's some good stuff here. So Sharon said, someone once told me that desire can follow attention. I found that really helpful. I can choose what I give my attention to, even if I don't feel like it, just as Ade said in his example. Alicia said perspective is so critical because just as we could assume that our giving will be abused, we can also choose to assume that it's going to be used for good. And I believe our efforts count to God. Sharon also said, I think it can be a fun activity partnering with God to be generous. I think that's a really, really good point, actually. yeah, you can have some real adventures with giving, can't you? Probably not got enough time to unpick them all, but Sure, we've got some— all got some examples of that. Ellis says, I really relate to Aid there. I make sure to read the Bible every day even though sometimes I don't feel like it. However, other days I feel really motivated and enjoy doing it. Both are edifying. That's a really good point. I'm aware that time is ticking along, so, any final thought from either of you guys just in sort of rounding up? We'll, obviously go across to the live lounge in a minute, and the link for that will be coming up shortly on your screen or in the comments box. Oh, it's already in there, I'm told. Yeah, I'm a step behind. I know, it's almost like we've got tech guys behind us, you know what they're doing.
Dave: Yeah, yeah.
Anna: but yeah, so there we are. Just, just to shame me as I'm speaking. so yeah, our sound wasn't great tonight, but they're on top of everything else.
Dave: They can't hear you, Matt.
Anna: You're not on mic for once. Matt's just shouting from the— for anyone who's listening, Matt's just shouting from the back of studio. No one can hear you. No one cares.
Ade: No, exactly.
Anna: anyway, before this descends into total chaos, any final thoughts from you, Dave?
Dave: I just say that, you know, encountering Jesus loosened Zacchaeus's grip on money and the selfishness that more often than not accompanies it.
Anna: Amazing. Yep. And how about you, Ade? Have you any final thoughts to leave us with?
Ade: Yeah, so Zacchaeus had it all. He had all the kind of wealth he wanted. He did not have community, and community really cannot be underestimated. And if you're watching this and you don't have community, please reach out to us. Heck, even come along to the live lounge after this. We are an online community of believers. Doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter if you haven't got a local church. We can be your local church, literally on your screen.
Anna: Yeah, amen to that.
Dave: Amen.
Anna: It's very true. just to let you guys know, next week we're back, same time at 7 PM on proud. And, next week we've got Mike Harris talking, so he's going to be here talking about when positivity doesn't help. And it's just a continuation of this, series that we're doing on Jesus the Revolutionary. So Dave's laughing because he can't say the word revolutionary. I think it's—
Dave: I've said it once. I think it's a—
Anna: Go on, Dave, before we sign off, just try it.
Dave: Jesus. Jesus.
Anna: Jesus.
Ade: Revolutionary.
Dave: Nearly.
Anna: He's been practicing, everyone. He's been practicing. Jesus the revolutionary. I don't think it's that hard. Anyway, never mind. Tell us in the chat bar if you think revolutionary is hard to say. but yeah, on that, on that, exactly, join the revolution. So on that, note, we probably— it's time to wrap up. But, yeah, hopefully join us in the live lounge if you want to continue this chat. We'd love to see you. And if not, we'll see you next week. Take care.
Dave: Bye.
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