Why God Doesn't Just Fix It
When you're in real pain, you want it gone. One of our community, Ellis, said it perfectly this week — "What I struggle with is not wanting God to be with me in the pain. I just want him to take it away." If God can fix it, why doesn't he? It's an honest question, and most of us have asked some version of it.
This week Mike Harris took us to the story of Jesus raising his friend Lazarus from the dead. Mike admitted it was a hard talk to prepare, partly because grief is a hard thing to talk about. But what he found in the story isn't a tidy answer. It's something better, and it starts with God doing something really unusual.
God Was in No Rush
Jesus hears that Lazarus is seriously ill. Bear in mind that He and Lazarus are good friends and that He loves this family — Lazarus and his two sisters, Mary and Martha. And what does he do? He waits. Two days. He doesn't drop everything and sprint to Bethany to save the day.
That used to really annoy our co-host Jan. "I'd have been Martha on the warpath," she said. And honestly, who wouldn't be? We've got this picture of Jesus as Superman, cape on, here to save the day. Instead, he pauses. He lets the people he loves sit in their grief for a while before he ever shows up.
Then, when he finally arrives and sees everyone weeping, the story says something startling. "A deep anger welled up within him, and he was deeply troubled." (John 11:33, NLT). And a couple of verses later, three of the simplest words in the whole Bible — "Then Jesus wept."
No explanation. No speech. God, standing at the edge of human grief, crying.
What Jesus Was Actually Angry About
Jesus wasn't angry at the people, or at the situation getting messy. He was angry at death itself.
Think back to the very beginning. When God made the world, death wasn't part of the plan. People were meant to live with God, in a place with no pain and no goodbyes. Death is the intruder. It was never how things were supposed to be. So when Jesus stands there looking at the wreckage death has caused in a family he loves, his anger is the right response. Death is wrong, and he knows it.
That changes how we see our own sadness. Mike put it like this — your grief is a natural reflection of something in the heart of God. When someone dies, it is sad. It's sad because we miss them. It's sad because it was never meant to be this way. So if you're grieving, you're not being weak or faithless. You're feeling exactly what God feels about death.
We're Not Great at Sadness
If grief is this normal, why are we so awkward around it? Mike wondered if it was to do with toxic positivity. "Good vibes only." The sense that sadness is somehow inconvenient.
Part of it is pace. Everything in life has sped up, and sadness slows you down. When you're grieving, you're slower than usual, and that bumps up against a culture that wants everyone to keep moving. Sadness also forces the people around us to feel something, and that can be costly. It's easier to look away.
Mike spoke really openly about losing his own dad over a decade ago, while he was working as a teacher. He remembered the phone call from his mum, the rush to the hospital, and how fast-paced school life left no room to grieve. What he wanted was simple. He wanted someone to ask. To sit with him. To let him tell a story about his dad.
He also described how grief ambushes you. He felt almost nothing when he first saw his dad's body. But years later, walking round Tesco with his son, he spotted something his dad had liked — and it hit as though his dad had died that very day. There's no neat timeline. As Jan reminded us, you can smell something ten years on and be right back there. No one gets to tell you how long you're allowed to grieve.
Faith in God's Character, Not the Outcome
So where does faith fit when God doesn't fix the thing you're begging him to fix?
Faith has to be in the character of God, not in the outcome. -- Mike Harris
That's the difference between faith that survives suffering and faith that shatters on it. If our trust depends on God giving us the result we want, every unanswered prayer becomes evidence against him. But if our trust is in who God is — loving, gracious, near to the brokenhearted — then we can sit with a story like Lazarus, full of things we don't understand, and not be destroyed by it.
Remember that Lazarus walked out of that tomb alive. And then, later, he died again. The raising wasn't a permanent fix. As Matt pointed out, it was a signpost — a glimpse of the bigger hope, that one day everyone who trusts Jesus will come out of the grave for good. The miracle wasn't God removing death forever. It was God promising he will.
How to Actually Help Someone Grieving
This is where the talk got really practical, and it's the part you can use this week.
The mourners in John 11 walked two miles from Jerusalem to be with Mary and Martha. No quick car ride. They got up and physically positioned themselves next to grieving people. That's the model — presence over a polished response.
Here's what came out of the conversation about how to show up well:
Don't say "let me know if you need anything." Matt was straight about this one. It feels kind, but it hands the whole burden back to the person who's already overwhelmed. Be proactive instead. Say "I'm coming round on Tuesday," or "let's go for a walk," or just turn up with a pie.
Ask them to tell you a story. Mike said this was the single most healing thing. When someone has died, the memories are often all that's left. Asking "tell me a story about them" helps unlock those memories instead of locking them away.
Listen, then ask a question. Not "oh, I've got a similar story." Get engrossed in their story, then ask something about it. When people feel genuinely heard, Mike said, it's transformational.
Don't be scared of the emotion. Jan, who spent years as a midwife visiting grieving mums, said they never wanted answers or platitudes. They just wanted someone to be there. The worst that happens is someone cries or gets angry in front of you — and that's okay.
Take the risk. Sacrificial love costs something and might get it slightly wrong. Mike told us about a stranger at a party who saw a woman breaking down over a divorce and simply held her and told her how brilliantly she was doing. It could have gone wrong. It didn't. It was exactly what she needed.
Matt shared his own version of this. Years ago, with the senior pastor away, he drove to the women's hospital late one night after a couple lost a baby to miscarriage. He didn't go to say the perfect thing. He told them, "you don't need to talk to me, I'm just going to be outside praying." He went so they'd know someone cared enough to come.
Conversation Street
Has anyone ever said something to comfort you that actually made things worse?
Plenty. The classic is "let me know if you need anything," which sounds caring but quietly passes the work back to the grieving person. Sharon named the fear underneath it — people stay silent because they've heard stories of someone saying the wrong thing. The takeaway wasn't "say the perfect thing." It was "show up anyway, and just ask."
Why do you think we're so uncomfortable with sadness?
Because sadness slows us down in a culture obsessed with speed, and because it forces us to feel things we'd rather avoid. Jan added a sharp observation — often we're more worried about looking foolish or saying the wrong thing than we are focused on the grieving person. We make their pain about our discomfort. Other cultures, she noted, give grief far more room and time than we tend to in Britain.
What does this story tell us about how God views our pain?
That he takes it seriously enough to enter it. Alicia reflected that seeing Jesus go through real human emotions helps us embrace our own. Mike shared something he'd been reading — God doesn't just know sadness in general, he knows what you're going through from your point of view. He identifies with your specific pain, your specific history. That's a comforting thing to sit with.
Is there grief in your life you've never given yourself permission to feel?
Mike was honest that he tended to push his own grief away and stay alone, partly because of the pace of work. What he could have done, he said, was take his sadness to God more often. Both Mary and Martha brought their grief straight to Jesus — one with anger, one with quiet disappointment — and he met each of them exactly where they were. Whatever your grief, God is big enough and loving enough to handle it.
Can you think of a better title for John 11 than "The Raising of Lazarus"?
Mike's gentle challenge. The chapter is less about the miracle and more about how Jesus relates to people who are hurting. If you've got a better title, we'd love to hear it.
You Don't Have to Fix It
If you take one thing from this week, let it be this. If you're walking alongside someone who's grieving, you don't have to fix their problem. You don't have to find the magic words. You just have to show up and be with them.
And if you're the one grieving — please hear this. You are not a problem to be fixed. Your sadness isn't a flaw in your faith. Sit with it. Sit with God in it. Let him take you on the journey you might need to go on.
Read Lamentations. It's a whole book of the Bible given over to lament, which tells you something. There's room in faith for honest sorrow.
Is there a grief you've been rushing past — or someone near you who just needs you to sit down and say, "tell me a story"?
If anything here stirred something, we'd genuinely love to hear from you. You can reach us through this site— whether you'd like prayer, want to talk, or just want to say hello. None of us were meant to grieve alone.
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Matt Edmundson: Well, good evening. Welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt Edmundson. I've got a wonky microphone, I've just realized. it's great to be with you, here on Crowd this evening. Very warm welcome to you wherever you are watching, from around the world. Say hi in the comments, be great to hear from you. In the studio tonight we have beside me They're beautiful, talented. Mike.
Mike Harris: Say again.
Jan Burch: Mike.
Matt Edmundson: Well, yeah, we've got Mike and Jan, both beautiful and both talented. So to my left is Jan. How are we doing?
Jan Burch: Hello, I'm very well, thank you. Yeah, good.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Good. And to my right is Mike.
Mike Harris: Hello there.
Matt Edmundson: Great to meet you.
Mike Harris: Oh, hang on.
Matt Edmundson: Try that again, Mike. There we go.
Mike Harris: Hello. Great to be there. Be here.
Jan Burch: Yeah, great to be.
Mike Harris: yeah, it is great to be here. We are excited. yeah, we're going to be talking about John 11 today, about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. And this has been a talk that I have been preparing— very difficult. I found it very hard to prepare this talk. but looking forward to it. Should be good.
Matt Edmundson: Indeed.
Mike Harris: And as if by magic, he's back in the room.
Matt Edmundson: Sorry about that. We were changing some cables over because there was a bit of a buzz again. And apparently my, I headbutted the cameras when I changed the cables. So Mike wasn't on screen then, but he's back now. A very, very warm welcome to you. Yeah, and Mike has been working hard on this message. So we're going to get into it. Let me light up YouTube. Jan, how's your week been?
Jan Burch: Yeah, it's been a good week. Thank you.
Matt Edmundson: Are you sure?
Jan Burch: Yeah. My son's had food poisoning. So that hasn't been great. But yeah, other than that, we've all been fine.
Matt Edmundson: Thank you. Good. Oh, let me just delete the sounds there.
Mike Harris: Yes.
Matt Edmundson: so good evening, Alicia. Good evening, Ellis. Sharon's in the comments, so she'll be looking after your comments. Now we've got Zoe on tech, and we've got Ros in the chat as well. Ros, how you doing? Hope you're feeling better. Yeah, yeah, I hope you're feeling better. but yeah, so without further— it just goes to— actually, let me just do housekeeping first. Yeah, I did. Sorry, Alice, I thought I said hello. Sharon, shouting at me. So if you are watching Crowd and it's your first time with us, basically we do church online. Mike's going to give us a talk. He's got his Bible out, he's got his notes out and everything. After the talk, we have Conversation Street where we kind of— we go to your comments and we go to the questions, although I think you're doing it backwards tonight.
Mike Harris: A little bit backwards. Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: So we're going to—
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: No idea what this is going to look like. so yeah, we're going to go to Conversation Street at some point. Mike will tell us when. so whatever questions you have, throw them in the comments, whatever comments you've got, any stories you want to share, any encouragements you want to bring to anybody else that's watching, then please share them in the comments on YouTube and, I will see them. I've got them on my computer in front of me. and so yeah, it'd be great to hear from you. Without further ado, do you need any further instruction? The man, the myth, the legend.
Mike Harris: No, that's fine.
Matt Edmundson: Over to you, Mike.
Mike Harris: Great. Well, it is lovely to be here, and, it has been a tough message to be thinking about meditating on, but, but I've been really excited be back here and to be talking to you about, about Jesus. And that's what we're gonna do today. So, as Matt said, we're gonna do a little bit back to front. But what all I want to do is the questions that we could maybe think about in Conversation Street. I just wanted to bring them up now so they can be in your mind as I'm going through, this talk. So the questions are— there's 4 questions and I just want you to be thinking about these as we go through. So the first one, is: has anyone said anything to, or said something to comfort you that has made things worse? Okay, so that's one question. so today we're going to be looking at Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, and we're going to be looking at how Jesus, deals with Martha and Mary's grief and, and how he grieves as well. So we're going to be looking at a little bit of that and a little bit of disappointment. And so, so yeah, that's the first question. Has anyone said anything that has made things worse when they were trying to comfort you? second question: why do you think we are so uncomfortable with sadness? that's the second question for you to think about. What does this story tell us about how God views our pain? And then the final one: is there grief in your life that you have never given yourself permission to feel. and if that is the case, I just want you to think about that, as we're looking at this story. And so this story, is found in the New Testament, which is the part of the Bible that focuses on Jesus and the early church. And it's found in the book, the eyewitness account of John, and chapter 11. And it's actually entitled The Raising of Lazarus. Now, that title wasn't in the Bible when it was first wrote, and I think there would be much better titles for this particular chapter because as I've looked at it, it's less about the raising of Lazarus and more about Jesus's connection with the people who were grieving and how he related to them. So maybe you could think about a different title for this chapter. And put it in the text or comments, whatever. But I'm just going to paraphrase the first bit of it, and then I'm just going to focus on a couple of verses. So Jesus effectively hears— he's not in Bethany where Mary and Martha are— and Jesus hears that Lazarus has died. He decides at that point, that he is going to wait another 2 days before going to Bethany to be with Mary and Martha. So he waits for 2 days and then he travels with his disciples. His disciples think that they are going with him effectively to die because Jesus didn't have a very good reception the last time he was here. and so they go with him, and Jesus goes back and he meets Mary and Martha and all of the other people who have gone there to mourn with Mary and Martha, and he has some conversations with Mary and Martha on his way in. He then goes to see Lazarus, and he raises Lazarus from the dead. But the verses that I just want to focus on are the verses after, or as he gets to Mary and Martha before he raises Lazarus from the dead. And this is verse 33 to 36. I'm just going to read it. I'm reading, from the New Living Translation, and it says this. It says, so Jesus has traveled with his disciples and he gets to Bethany, and he says, when Jesus saw her weeping— that's Mary, and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him, and he was deeply troubled. "Where have you put him?" he asked them. They told him, "Lord, come and see." Then Jesus wept. The people who were standing nearby said, "See how much He loved him. So they are the verses that I want us to, to have a think about. So if we go back now to the start of this story and we think about Jesus— so Jesus, we believe, was God. And so when Jesus finds out that Lazarus is dead— Mary and Martha and Lazarus were all siblings. And Jesus loved Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. And so he finds out that Lazarus has died, and Jesus, it says, decides to wait for 2 days. Now, Jesus would have known that Mary and Martha, 2 of the people who he loved, would have been grieving, would have been very sad. Jesus also knew— and you can read this in my— in John 11 that he was going to go to, where they were and to raise Lazarus from the dead, yet he still decides to wait for 2 days. You see, I just think there is something about grief that is really, really important, and it is linked, I think, to the anger that Jesus showed when he saw everybody really upset. And, and so he pauses, he waits. He doesn't just rush there and raise Lazarus from the dead and bring to an end this grief as quickly as he possibly could. When he gets to Mary and Martha, he also meets these two people who he loved who were grieving, and both of them come out to him, and they both have different, expressions of their grief. Martha has a more theological, anger, and Mary has a more disappointed, sadness about her. And in both of those situations, Jesus responds to Martha and to Mary in different ways. And what he does is he meets them exactly where they are. He knows he's about to raise Lazarus from the dead. He knows these questions that they have can be ended with an action of him raising Lazarus from the dead. But instead of rushing to that, he pauses with Mary and with Martha to speak to and to be with them in their grief. Jesus doesn't rush through the grief. He walks into it, remains there, pauses in the sadness, becomes sad himself. That says, doesn't it, that Jesus wept when he saw everybody weeping? Jesus doesn't want you to rush through your grief. There is something about your grief that is of value and is important and is, a natural expression of something of the heart of God. And you see, the reason why I think Jesus got angry was because what he was looking at was death. What he was angry with was death. Because you see, when the world was created and when God created man, death did not exist. We were not supposed to die. We were supposed to live for eternity in the— with just walking with God, in Paradise. That was what was supposed to happen. And Jesus was there before sin had— before sin had entered the world. He was there at the beginning with Adam and Eve, where no death, no pain existed, and they were just walking with God. And it was perfect. And Jesus knows, knew that that was the, the intention. And right here he's looking at people who he loved who are heartbroken, people who love them who are heartbroken. And he can see that this is what sin— this is what, sin has done to the world and has done to human beings. And his anger is with death itself. And so as you grieve, and as you have your questions, and as you have your disappointments, and as you have your longings, and you miss people, and you— all of those things are a clear reflection, a pure reflection of how God feels about this as well. You know, when somebody dies, it is sad. It is sad. It is sad because we miss them. It is sad because maybe they were in pain and things like that. It is sad that we don't get to be with them, but it is sad because it was never the intention of your Creator God. and the reason why Jesus came and died on the cross was so that we might have eternal life, so that we might again be able to live with God. Somewhere where there won't be any pain and where there won't be any suffering. and so I suppose the first thing to say would be Jesus pauses and meets them in their grief. He doesn't rush through it, and so neither should you. Your grief is a natural, reflection of something of the heart of God. And you know, in our culture, it's, it's different, isn't it? there is a lot of toxic positivity around, and I have noticed this. And, you know, there is, there's a, there's a saying, isn't there? Good vibes only, and, and things like that. And because the reality is that we have a real problem with people being sad. And, you know, I, I, I just want to throw that open and have us think about that. You know, why is it that we think that sadness is, is so inconvenient, makes us so uncomfortable? why is that? you know, one thing, you know, we have a very high pace to our lives, don't we? Very high pace to our lives. You know, whatever you are doing Everything, even though technology had promised that we'd have more time, everything seems to have speeded up, doesn't it? And sadness slows us down, doesn't it? When you are sad, you are slower than you would normally be. And in this incredibly fast-paced life, being sad for any period of time, you're going to— you're gonna come into conflict with people around you and with the culture around you because sadness slows us down. it also forces people to think about their own lives sometimes. You know, if you've got, somebody, who is close to you, who you come into contact with, a lot, maybe on a regular, you know, daily or weekly routine, and they are sad for a period of time then it, you know, it forces you, especially us men, to, to sort of think about our emotions and to try and engage with them and think, you know, try and meet this person not just on an intellectual level but on an emotional level. And that can be costly, can't it? I, over a decade ago now, I was a teacher and during this time when I was a teacher, I lost my dad. And I remember, when I was, being in school and my mum calling me and saying that he was having a heart attack and we had to go to the hospital. And sometime afterwards he died. And I remember, you know, when I was in school, I remember somebody saying to me, you know, the people will only remember how you made them feel. That's how people will remember you. They will— when they think about you, they'll think, how did I feel when I was around that person? And often when I think about, my colleagues and I think about, you know, what were they like, how did they make me feel, I think about the— that my mind goes to, when was I at my lowest, and at that point, how did they make me feel? And, you know, some of— for some of them, it, you know, they were great, and, and, you know, some, some not so great. And but I think that's a challenge for us, isn't it? You know, to think about the people who are potentially grieving around us. I know for me, what I wanted was for people to ask me about it. and when they asked me about it, it made me sad. And so sometimes people would ask me about it and I would get sad and and they'd back away because they think, you know, I don't want to make him sad. But, and, and it's difficult because I was in education, which is very, very fast-paced, and people don't always have a lot of time to sit with you and to talk. But that, that's what I wanted. I wanted people to sit with me and to ask me how I was and to allow me the time to tell a story about my dad or something like that. That, that, that was a you know, what, what I wanted. I remember, as time went by as well, I remember being quite surprised by the randomness of grief. So I remember, for example, I remember when, when my dad died and he was in hospital, I remember seeing him, seeing him dead for the first time and, and not having any emotional reaction to it. However, I remember, years and years after he died, going through Tesco, with my son and seeing something that he liked, and all of a sudden it was almost as though he just died that day. And, and, you know, as time went by, those random points of grief became sort of less and less, but they, but they still tripped you up. They were surprising. and I think it, it was important for me to pause in those moments and to, to reflect and just to think, not to just rush through to the next thing that I needed to do, but to stop and pause and go, it is sad that he's not here, and that wasn't God's intention, that death would be in this world. And my, my grief and my mourning is a reflection of, of God's heart. you know, there is no perfect way to grieve, at all. There is no, strategy. And I'm sure you'll find some on the internet, but, but there is no strategy. We're all made differently and we grieve differently. but one thing that we can learn from this story of, of Jesus and Mary and Martha is that both Mary and Martha took their grief to Jesus. And they both had different disappointments and different sadnesses, but they both took them to Jesus. And I think one of the things that we can do, is when we are grieving, and whether that be because of the loss of a loved one, whether that be because of the loss of a dream, or just because you are very sad or very disappointed, taking that to God is a healthy response. It is something that he is big enough, and loving enough to be able to cope with. It is something that he wants us to do as his children. you know, I'm, I'm a father, I've got two kids, and you know, if they're sad, I want them to come to me and to share their sadness with me. and your Father wants you to share your sadness with him. not because he's going to come in and heal you straight away, but because, like he did with Mary and Martha, he wants to come and enter into your grief and disappointment and sadness with you and sit alongside of you, and be with you as you walk through, that period of your life. I think the, you know, the final thing is, a bit of a challenge really, I suppose, for, for us when dealing with other people who are going through grief or disappointment. You know, in John 11, it says that Bethany was 2 miles away from Jerusalem, and many Jews traveled to Mary and Martha to be with them as they mourned And so these people could not— they didn't, they didn't get an Uber and get out to Bethany. They walked for 2 miles. They walked for 2 miles and they positioned themselves next to Mary and Martha and grieved with them. It also says that when Mary got up to go out to see Jesus, that the mourners thought that Mary was going to the tomb, so they got up and went with her. That what they wanted to do was position themselves with Mary as she grieved, and to be with her and to be next to her. You know, in, in the culture that we live in, if someone's going through something sad— and I know I've done this before— you could send a text and think that you've shown your love because you've sent them a WhatsApp or you've sent them an emoji or something like that. And, you know, obviously all these things are good, but I think there's a challenge for us do a bit more, for us to be, to be a little bit more like these mourners who got up and walked for 2 miles and just positioned themselves next to these people who were mourning, and mourned with them. you know, if you've got friends, it's going to cost you time. It's gonna— you're gonna— you're gonna have to give a lot But this is— that is what they need. You know, if you are an employer, it's difficult, isn't it, in the jobs market? Very difficult. But trying to be flexible enough and having the empathy to be able to slow at that point and give that colleague, that employee, the space that they need to be able to grieve is going to cost you. but it's, it's a challenge, isn't it? And it's something that, that we need God's help with, that I need God's help with, as you know, in order to do that. So that is, that is it really. your grief, you shouldn't rush through it. Jesus didn't. he wants to come and position himself next to you. He wants you to know that you are with him. he draws near to those who are brokenhearted. and if you are grieving today, then you know, I know that Jesus is drawing near to you. if you've got friends and loved ones who are grieving, then let's just think about, you know, maybe put the phone down, and maybe go and visit them. And yeah, let's, let's, let's Let's have a think about that. So the 4 questions, that we posed at the start, you can, you know, just be having a reflect upon. has anyone said any— said something to you to comfort you that has made it worse? why do you think we are so uncomfortable with sadness? And, you know, I offered one point, but, but maybe you could have a think about some others. what does this story tell us about how God views our pain? And is there grief in your life that you never gave yourself permission to feel? The final thing, you know, the raising of Lazarus— do you think it's a good title for that chapter? I'm not sure. Could you think of another title that we could maybe give that chapter? Yeah, great.
Matt Edmundson: Thanks, Mike.
Mike Harris: That's right.
Matt Edmundson: Lots in there as usual. There's lots of comments going on as well, which is good. so we're going to get into all of that. Do keep them coming, do keep your conversation going in conversation, in the comments. I was going to spend a bit of time talking about it now. How are you with that, Jan?
Jan Burch: Yeah, great. The talk? Yeah, yeah, I thought it was really beautiful what you said, and I think you, you said it so well. Mike, so well done for that.
Mike Harris: Thanks.
Jan Burch: It was a difficult topic to talk on. and I, you know, appreciate your vulnerability as well. I think it, I think it really helped to hear that. I thought I understood a bit about grief. but actually I'd never understood before why Jesus was angry. 'Cause I thought, why is he angry now? You know, and you explained that he was angry at death.
Mike Harris: Mm-hmm.
Jan Burch: And that makes perfect sense. But I think it reminded me of being like a child and you see your mum or dad get angry over something and you think, but you know, why are they feeling like that?
Matt Edmundson: They were— Mm-hmm.
Jan Burch: They were happy 2 minutes ago, but it's, yeah, I think, I think you really clarified that and that was really great.
Mike Harris: Cool.
Jan Burch: and just how, again, reading it myself, you know, why Jesus delayed the 2 days, I, that used to annoy me.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jan Burch: Because You know, yes, we know that he was gonna raise Lazarus, but I didn't, I wasn't comfortable with him. He didn't even tell the disciples that Lazarus was dead. He said he was asleep. He was asleep. Or that he wasn't well or something. So I don't think they knew the severity of what they were going to straight away. And that, that used to just annoy me a bit. Yeah, so I'd have been definitely like Martha on the warpath, like, why weren't you here? I think. Yeah, yeah, because they were really close friends, weren't they? So they were being themselves with him. Yeah, but no, I think you clarified a lot of things. And yeah, thank you.
Mike Harris: That's all right.
Matt Edmundson: It's interesting, isn't it, the whole, Jesus hanging around for 2 days thing. It's like because I think quite often we have in our heads this view of Jesus which is donning the cape, you know, Superman is coming, I'm gonna save the day kind of thing and rescue it. and like you say, he just pauses. He's just like, yeah, not yet, guys.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: And it's interesting because I listen to you talk about that because I started— I've never really finished it— I started writing a book about sleep Did you fall asleep, brother? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It sent me to sleep. and I started writing it during COVID and this was one of the stories that intrigued me because Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Now, this is the Son of God, so he's not lying. No. Do you know what I mean? It's not like he's, is, is feeding them a bit of a sidewinder.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: In God's view, he's like, no, he's asleep. And so the disciples then said, oh, it's good that he rests up. Like, you know, old wives'— your mum would always say, oh, just 'Have a good night's sleep and you'll be all right.' It just feels a bit like that. Yeah, the disciples say, 'I'll be all right, I'll just have a bit of sleep and it'll be fine.' Yeah, yeah. And, obviously he's not. Things go very, very different. And it's just always intrigued me, that story, like you, that Jesus was not like Superman, just kind of, here we are saving the day, that actually there was something that needed to happen.
Mike Harris: so yeah, and I think, I think, you know, we're not we're not left with, you know, the, the sort of clearest of reasons for it, you know. Well, we're still left with questions, aren't we? And I think, you know, the Bible is meditation literature, is that it's supposed— we're supposed to think about it and then think about it some more and go back and reread it and, you know, think about it a little bit more and have a think about other stories and stuff like that. And it's definitely one of those stories that requires a few, yeah, read-throughs and, and certainly a long walk and a cup of tea, a biscuit, a biscuit or three. Yeah. And, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's meditation literature, isn't it? It is. We have to sit, we have to meditate with it, and we have to we have to take our anger to God and we have to take our questions to God.
Matt Edmundson: I think we have to wrestle with it. Yeah, it's interesting because Ellis has put here in the comments, what I struggle with is not wanting God to be with me in the pain. I just want him to take it away.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: When he doesn't, I think, well, you raised Lazarus, you fixed that, so why not just fix this, right? And I think that's the default, isn't it? It's like we don't like pain, we don't want it, we don't want to feel this way. God, fix it. I don't want you to be with me. I mean, that's nice, don't get me wrong. Yeah, I just want— I want you to fix it because you, you're a God that can fix these kind of things, right? Just fix the problem. and like you say, sometimes we have to wrestle with that. Yeah, yeah, the long walks, the cup of tea and the biscuit.
Jan Burch: We definitely don't understand God's ways. As you said, you know, his ways are not our ways, and, they, they're not Clearly. And yeah, there's some things there I don't understand. I heard J.John speak about actually when he does call Lazarus out, which was funny, but he said, you know, he'd been dead for 3 days. And, you know, if you fall asleep on the couch or something, you're quite stiff the next morning. But 3 days later when you've been dead, yeah, yeah, you're going to be very stiff and very sore. Yeah. he was bound in all, all the, all this. But what the point I'm making is, Jesus didn't like give him a coffee to, you know, to sort of start to feel a little bit better before he called him out, or he didn't do it gradually. He just said, come out. So his approach was quite bold, even to his dead friend. Mm-hmm. Whereas we'd have been a bit more, you know, someone go in and two people lift him up.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Jan Burch: But no, Jesus was just, come out. So I just think we've got a lot to learn and understand from his attitude sometimes. I mean, God is without sin. It's— it— he's not done anything wrong. It's just a bit alien to us. Yeah, his whole approach. Yeah, yeah, isn't it?
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah. And you know, there's— I just think there must be— there must be something about us grieving, you know, that, that, as I say, reflects that God's heart towards Jesus' heart towards death, but also that that, you know, this was not the— this was not God's intention that death was here, but death is here. So in this grief, there is, there is work that God can do in these people in order that they might experience greater life on the other side of it. And so it's hard for us to think, it's hard for us to get our heads around, and we do start to, to, to question God in it. But, you know, Jesus obviously believed that, that remaining 2 days and letting them grieve for a while would in the end be to their benefit and the glory of God.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, I think—
Mike Harris: and we have to trust him. Yeah, we do have to trust him. Faith in— faith is— has to be in the character of God and not in the outcome. And so we have to trust— we have to look at a story like this and think, I have faith that God is loving and gracious and powerful, and that's what my faith's in. The fact that he acts in a way that is, that I don't fully understand. My faith is not in the outcome. My faith has got to be in the character of God. And if it is, then you can meditate on this and it not ruin you. Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: that's so true.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: And it's interesting with Lazarus. I mean, you know, to make the obvious statement, it's not here. No, right? So yeah, he died again, right? And this time Jesus didn't raise him from the dead. It was like this really— I— it's like this thing Jesus did when he was on Earth. He raised a few people from the dead, I think, to almost point the way to what's going to happen, you know, in heaven kind of thing. It's like, okay, so actually I've got to go through the grief now, but at some point he and me are going to come out of a tomb somehow, somewhere in heaven. I'm gonna go, what's up, right?
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: And it's But it is, it is this thing where even Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead wasn't permanent while he was here on Earth. No, right? And, and death is inescapable. Death and taxes, apparently both in this case. Yeah. so we can't escape it. But to your question, why do we find it so hard to talk about sad things? Is a— why do we find it so hard to talk about grief? Right? It's a really interesting one, isn't it? And you, you hear that something bad has happened and you feel like, I don't know what to say, I don't know how to respond here, I don't know what to say to this person. But one of the things that you said, Mike, was I just wanted— I just wanted people to ask me.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: And one of the things I remember, learning early on in my, in my Christian walk, I suppose, was actually to not be afraid to ask the question to have a conversation, but not to ask the question, or not to say to someone, if there's anything I can do, let me know. Because that puts the whole emphasis back on you. It's like, I want to be helpful. So I'm just going to say, if you need me to do anything, just tell me, right? And in certain situations, that's really good. But in grief, it's not because now you're like, well, what do I do with that? Because now that's my responsibility to ask you to do something. I don't want to do that. I've got, I've got all this to deal with, right? and so I don't think that's a particularly great question to ask. Better to say, I'm coming around, or let's go for a walk at this date, or do you mean— or make some kind of suggestions, be a bit more proactive. Yeah, yeah, bake a pie, you know, I would do whatever. Yeah, you know, that makes sense. Don't just go, let me know if you need me to do anything, or let me know if I can help in anything. Yeah, yeah, it's a said it makes me feel better saying it, but it is a bit of a cop-out. Yeah. Anyways, and so I remember, I remember learning that.
Jan Burch: No, that's a really good point. I think, I think, just thinking, I think, I think, you sure? I think we can learn a lot from other cultures, around us. I mean, You know, different as a midwife, I'd go into people's homes. sometimes it was a sad situation, you know, a baby had died or, and always difficult to make those, those home visits.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Jan Burch: But the most of the mums I, spent time with, they didn't want answers. No, they didn't want, platitudes. Yeah, they just wanted you to be there, and they wanted sometimes to ask questions, to say, or just talk you through what happened again. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes they, they didn't want anything. Yeah, they just wanted you to go. They, I don't know, just be there. Yeah. And I don't think you can underestimate that. No. we feel as a British culture, we feel that we've got to do something, we've got to say the right thing, we've got to, you know, I don't— I think we're thinking more of ourselves than, than the grieving person.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: we want to come across in that way. Yeah, we don't want to look foolish or say the wrong thing.
Jan Burch: And you want to be, you know, in 10 years they'll say, I remember when Jan came around and she said this, and it, you know, it changed my life. Yeah, yeah, rubbish, who cares? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's about, it's about what they need there and then.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Jan Burch: And then they mightn't have the words to express what they need.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Jan Burch: But I think quietly just being there, you know, like you said, Mike, you just wanted people to sit with you and—
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Jan Burch: I've lost my dad many years ago and I totally you know, could relate to what you said. Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Did you find, Mike, that one of the best things people could do was to say to you, tell me a story?
Mike Harris: Absolutely.
Matt Edmundson: I, I, you know, and also, sorry not to interject with my version of that story, or, oh, I've got a similar story to that.
Jan Burch: It's like, just, yeah, tell me the story and just sit and listen.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, get engrossed in the story, right?
Mike Harris: 100%. You know, that was all I wanted to do. And, you know, everyone's different, but all I wanted to do was tell stories about my dad. and yeah, you know, it's just— but it's, it's so hard, isn't it? I find this, you know, even when talking to anybody, to not interject and to just sit and actually listen is so hard. It's so, so hard. I was trying to give, some youth some advice a while back, and I was saying to them, you know, I wish I'd known this when I was young, or I wish I could do it. Maybe I knew it, but I couldn't do it. Is that when someone's talking to you and telling you a story, you need to listen, and then you need to ask them a question about what you've just heard. Because when people feel like they've been heard, yeah, it's so powerful. Yeah, so powerful. And so, you know, if a grieving person tells you a story about their dad and you can demonstrate that you are listening by asking a question for them to be able to go on and go further, that person is going to feel heard. And that's going to be, that's going to be so transformational, so, so important.
Matt Edmundson: it's really good, really important. I think one of the things that, when you think about it, when some, when someone's passed away right? There is a legacy and there is an inheritance of— now that might not be money, by the way. Yeah, yeah. But the thing that we always remember are the memories, right? So when you're asking someone to tell the story, you're helping them unlock memories.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Which is all they've got left of that. Yeah, right. So it's, it's a really— I think it's a really powerful mechanism. Alicia's put here in the comments laughter is a blessing. Yeah. And I think actually that's a really good point, it— to not actually shy away from helping someone laugh in a time of sadness.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: And that's not me telling you a really poor joke, by the way. No. But that's asking me stories like, oh, when did you last laugh together? What was a good belly laugh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me that story. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, and she's put here, sometimes I've just wanted people to sit with me, and they— back to your point, Jan, they can just be there without having to say anything. I think it can be difficult to accept that there are certain things that the Lord does in his divine timing that don't always match our desires because we can't see everything he does, which is very, very true. yeah, but I— she's— sorry, I'm just reading Ellis's comment here. Jesus— seeing Jesus go through these very human emotions helps us embrace that we can experience the same ones, right? Yeah, which is very true.
Mike Harris: Yeah, I think, another thing that can help, is, is beauty. I know often people take flowers to people who are grieving. and I think there's something comforting. I don't know fully what it is, but I think there's something comforting about, about beauty. So whether it is that you, as you said, you know, let's go for a walk, let's, let's go and see something. I don't fully understand it, but I think there is something.
Jan Burch: I think when you're, when you're in nature you're actually connecting with God there in a— whether you're aware of it or not, you know, if you're not a Christian, but you're surrounded by beauty and like beautiful trees and flowers, water, mountains. All these things touch our spirits, I think. and I think it's, you know, maybe it's something to do with, with God is in in all of it, isn't he?
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Jan Burch: yeah, that's really interesting.
Mike Harris: I think, Alicia's comment as well about, you know, trying to— or being able to understand God's timing, and, is, is really, really, really, really hard, and really difficult, and definitely something we have to wrestle with. and what was the other thing that, that she was saying?
Matt Edmundson: Jesus experienced the same emotion.
Mike Harris: But Jesus experienced the same emotion. Yeah. And so seeing Jesus being upset is affirming, I think, to, to anyone who is going through, grief or sadness or disappointment. it is affirming to know that, you know, this is a human emotion that you're created with, that is natural and a righteous response to whatever, whatever is going on, whatever is happening. we have— we serve a God who, who knows what it's like. And I've been reading recently about, you might know this already, but reading about the fact that God knows not just what you're going through, but he knows what you're going through from your point of view. Which I think is important to note that, you know, it's not just that he has experienced sadness, therefore he knows what your sadness is. Like, there's almost a bit of a disconnect, but he knows what you're going through from your point of view. He can identify exactly with what you're going through, and, and he understands, And, you know, like Alicia was saying, seeing, yeah, Jesus being sad and knowing that he knows me and he knows what I'm going through from my point of view, given my history, is, is again, you know, a comforting thought, a comforting thing to think about.
Jan Burch: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt Edmundson: I like the fact that Jesus wept is one of the shortest verses in the Bible now. You know, this is the old pub quiz. What's the shortest verse in the Bible?
Jan Burch: Jesus wept.
Matt Edmundson: There are actually a few others in contention here, depending if you look at the original Greek and Hebrew. I don't want to go there. That's just too random. But the fact that it is intentionally short, I quite like, because there's no explanation. He wept.
Mike Harris: Deal with it, right?
Matt Edmundson: It's not like— it's just like, it's the way it is. Jesus wept.. And I think, I think the other thing that, that, let me just look at the comments actually first. Sharon's put here, I think sometimes people can be nervous about saying or doing something that will make the grieving person feel worse or annoyed because they've heard stories of where that has happened.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: definitely. And it's, I think that's very, very true. And again, this is part of sometimes our reticence, isn't it, in trying to help people, is we don't want to mess things up when someone's already grieving. And I find the best thing to do is just ask them, can we talk about this? Do you want to share a story, or can I leave you alone? Can I get you a cup of tea? I think it's, you know, it is true though, isn't it? Yeah, I think the fear of that Yeah, yeah. But because you've been— here's the thing, right? I think if you've, if you've not been through a loss, it's hard to talk to people who are going through one.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: But because you've gone through it, yeah, all of a sudden you have a different capability, or different capabilities may be the wrong word, a different empathy perhaps.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: with someone that's going through grief, maybe.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah. Definitely think so. And, I know when my, a few years before my dad died, he got cancer and, you know, had a battle with cancer and then came out the other side of it and felt like he had the capacity to be able to talk to people who had been through cancer. And I suppose it's a similar thing, isn't it? It's an experience. Yeah, that you have walked through with God. Yeah. that you can say, look, I've walked with God through the experience that you are going through.
Jan Burch: And just more tuned in, aren't you?
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: In a lot many ways. I think another thing that sticks out here, and probably should— we should touch on this just a little bit, is like you say, when Jesus turns up, Martha's like, if you'd have been here. Yeah, right now she's annoyed at God, right? She's angry at God and, and quite bold, going back to your point, in her accusation.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: If you'd have not been here, this wouldn't have happened. Dude, this is your fault. Yeah, right. And this brazenness that we see of Martha, I don't think we would have seen maybe at any other time, but because she's going through grief, I think she's, she's directing that anger to— and anger is maybe the wrong word, maybe confusion, maybe, maybe that's a better word, right? I don't understand, but I know enough to know if you'd have been here, this wouldn't have happened. and I think we can do that a lot in grief. I mean, were you like that with your dad?
Mike Harris: I think he'd been ill for a long time, which I suppose in the end when he died it felt like the appropriate thing to happen. However, he was, he was 66, you know, he's missed out on a lot of his grandchildren growing up and stuff like that, and you think that, that's, that's very sad. But I don't think— I think I— yeah, I don't think I took it out on God. I think it just made me— it made me sad. but yeah, I don't think— I think what I could have done is taken my sadness to God more. I think I, I tended to stay alone, and because I worked in a very fast-paced place, I just felt like I just had to get on, just had to sort of push it away a little bit and get on. but, but as I said, my— what my heart was to do was to have someone like you say, tell me a story. but it just didn't feel— I don't know, it didn't feel appropriate. I suppose like, like Sharon was saying, you know, when you see someone grieving as well, you just don't want to make it worse, do you? No. But at the same time, you know, I think in order to show real sacrificial love, it does take a bit of a risk sometimes. Yeah. And you are risking the possibility that you're gonna do something wrong. But yeah, but if you, you know, if you don't do anything you know, that's clearly the wrong thing to do, isn't it? And so sometimes I think you've got to, you've got to take that risk. If your heart is that you want to be with this person in their grief and you long for them, to, to move through this grief, then, you know, then I would say take, you know, take the advice that that we've been talking about today, but also just, just take that risk.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I'm going— such a good— very good. Yeah, such a good point. I remember once there was a couple, and I won't go into the details, but I remember, I remember them having a, you know, this sort of situation where the their, the lady was pregnant and she ended up in hospital and it was a miscarriage. And this wasn't great, the whole situation wasn't great. and I remember our senior pastor being away on holiday because normally when, you know, something like that happens, you go, well, I'll send them a text or I'll do something, but I know that Dave will go and see them.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: But Dave wasn't there and it was late one night, so I'm like, right, I've got to get in the car and go down to the women's hospital. It's going to be past visiting hours. And I, I went to the hospital and I said, I'm here to see such and such. I said, yeah, I'm a minister of religion, which I, you know, we all are, I guess. And, they're all like, here, come on in. And so I got to see them, and I, I didn't need— I didn't need to go and talk to them. I needed to I needed them to know that I cared enough to go down there, right? And I said, when I saw them, I'm like, you don't need to talk to me. I'm just going to stay outside. I'm going to pray. That's what I'm going to do. If you, if you want me, I'm there, but just know that I'm there, right? And I think sometimes you've just got to put, like you say, put yourself out there.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: And it is easy to go, I'll send a text. And that might be the appropriate response for me the following day.
Mike Harris: Yeah, yeah, right.
Matt Edmundson: But I think if these people mean something to you, I think putting yourself out there is quite an important thing to do.
Jan Burch: Yeah, I think we're just— we're frightened of confrontation. We're frightened of anger. As in, you know, you see, you know, on television, there's films and Italian families and They, they like, the women wear black, don't they, for, I don't know, 6, is it 6 years? Seemingly widows remain in black, you know, older women wear, won't wear any other color. I don't know if there's like a set time, but you often see, you know, I think in Spanish culture as well, they do grieve for a long, long time. but what I was gonna say is I just think the worst thing that could happen is that someone is gonna get angry or totally break down and cry in front of you. And I don't really think— I think that's okay. Yeah, you know, we don't like someone being angry with us. But I don't think we should be so scared of emotion either. Yeah. As a, as a culture, as Christians.
Mike Harris: Yeah.
Jan Burch: I think we've got to learn this a bit better. Yeah. Haven't we?
Mike Harris: Yeah. But my, my wife was at— well, me and my wife were at a party, a little while ago. And this is, I think, similar to what you were saying, and this this lady was there, and she just— she'd just been— I think she might have been going through a divorce, and she was— she was there with her kids, and, she come to the party, and, she hadn't intended to, you know, to talk about it or to become emotional, but— but with these strangers who she'd never met before, one of them being my wife, she explained she just mentioned that this was happening anyway. She just broke down, and one of the strangers there, you know, never met before, yeah, was just like, you know, now listen, you, you are fantastic, you are doing so well, you are, you know, look at you, look at your kids, they're absolutely brilliant, you're doing so, so well. Gave her a big hug, and, you know, and, and it was just what she needed. And I, you know, Debbie was telling me, and she was just like I was just like bowled over by the, the boldness and the love that this complete stranger showed to this person who just really needed it. And she wasn't, you know, it was almost like that was her reaction to do something like that. You know, I'd, I'd hope that that would be the kind of thing that I would do. And yes, it could have gone wrong, couldn't it? but You know, I think, I think that's what we need to move towards being more like, especially in this country.
Jan Burch: Yeah, definitely.
Mike Harris: Very good.
Matt Edmundson: And on that point, ladies and gentlemen, seems like a good place to end. thanks, Mike.
Mike Harris: That's all right, enjoyed it.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, well, you said it was quite a hard talk to prepare, and I was kind of like, when you said that this time, I wonder why. And then I heard this talk and I'm like, oh, I know, I understand why. That's fine. So thank you for doing that, man. I appreciate it. These things aren't always easy. Jan, thank you for joining me. You're welcome. As always, Matthew.
Jan Burch: Am I? Yes. It's good. Oh, it was great. I really can't say enjoyed tonight.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, it's just good to talk about this stuff.
Jan Burch: It's really interesting.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Any final words for me?
Jan Burch: read Lamentations. It's good to, lamenting is— yeah. Appropriate, and no one can say this is how long you've got to grieve. It can— you do it in your own time and way. And, anyone who has lost someone knows that, you know, you'll smell something that reminds you of the person, you know, 10 years later, or It's all, it's all good, it's all fine.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that was for me.
Mike Harris: Well, I suppose only that, you know, God draws near to the brokenhearted. So if someone is grieving and you take the time to draw close to them, then I think that is a, a powerful act, and it will not be without great eternal value.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's so true. You stole my scripture. That's okay, I forgive you. so, Alicia says thanks so much. So Ros says thanks for the talk. yeah, I hope this— we don't always talk about this kind of stuff, so it's been— I think it's been really, really good. And I think for those of you who are talking to people who are going through grief, you don't have to fix their problem. Yeah, that's the one thing that I would say. And for those of you who are going through grief don't feel like you're a problem that needs to be fixed. Yeah. and just sit with it and just sit with God in it and let him take you on the journey that you maybe need to go on. but at the end of all of this, as Christians, we get to believe that one day we get to see Lazarus, right? That whoever it is will be, risen from the dead in a new glorified body. And, we'll get to hang with them again. And so it's not the end of the story. It doesn't always help in the here and now, but there is that eternal hope. Yeah, absolutely. and, so yes, we are going to move over to live lounge. so if you go into the comments, you'll see that we've put in there some links to come join us on a Google Meet. So Come and say howzit if you like. We're just going to hang out there for a couple minutes. So it's always nice to meet people and say hello. So do come join us in that. And then next week, I don't actually know what's going on next week. I should probably check real quick. And do you know what's happening next week?
Mike Harris: No.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, Sharon's speaking, which is great. And we've got Ade and Dan who are hosting. Zoe's on the tech. Oh no, Zoe's away. I need to rearrange the tech. She's just reminding me. Oh, anybody want to come do tech next Sunday? we need some more tech operators. So I was going away for 3 weeks. but yeah, so next week, what are you talking about next week, babe? So if you didn't hear that, she said you'll find out next week. so you don't want to ruin the surprise. Have you, do you know what you're talking about next week?
Mike Harris: Okay.
Matt Edmundson: Have you done any planning?
Jan Burch: Excellent.
Matt Edmundson: So cool. Weeks of thinking. Excellent. So, you know, Sharon's always good at speaking. So, you know, it's going to be good. But Jan, thanks so much. Mike, thank you very much. Thank you for joining us. And like I say, if you are able and willing and wanting to do so, it'd be great to meet you in Live Lounge. Come say hello. We'll be, we won't be there long, maybe 5, 10 minutes. It's always great to see new people's faces. So, Yeah, hopefully see you in there. If not, we will see you next week. If you need any information, or if there's anything that's come up from tonight and you would like some prayer, or you just want to get in touch with somebody, you can reach us through the website www.crowd.church. Just head there, there's some forms, there is a WhatsApp number on there which I need to take down because that's not working at the moment. So use the forms, use the email, reach out to us. we get all the emails and we will pray for you and, and obviously do whatever we can. so yeah, that's how you reach out to us. Small group information, if you'd like to join small groups, is all on there. so yeah, just go reach out to us through www.crowd.church, for any information that you need. But that's it from me, that's it from Mike, that's it from Jan. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. We'll see you next time. Bye for now.
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