You Don't Need Money to Leave a Legacy

23 Mar

YouTube Video of the Church Service

When someone says the word "legacy," most of us think of one thing. Money. A house, maybe. Premium bonds tucked away in a drawer somewhere. And if we're honest, most of us quietly assume that legacy is something reserved for people who have something financial to leave behind.

Dave Connolly gently dismantled that assumption this week at Crowd Church. In the final talk of our stewardship series, Dave made a case that the most valuable things we leave behind aren't measured in pounds. They're measured in stories, in faith modelled consistently, and in the quiet deposits we make in other people's lives without even realising we're doing it.

The Real Inheritance

Legacy, Dave argued, doesn't require a funeral. In the Bible, inheritance was something you could receive while the person was still alive. The prodigal son didn't wait for his father to die. He asked for his share and got it. It's called a living inheritance.

And that's exactly the kind of legacy Dave was talking about. Not something you leave when you're gone, but something you build while you're still here. Intentionally. Consistently. Not through grand gestures, but through the way you actually live.

"It may not be pounds," Dave said. "It may not be premium bonds. It may not be property. But we have much that we can leave."

The question isn't whether you have enough to leave a legacy. It's whether you're building one right now.

What the Bible Actually Says About Passing Things Down

Dave walked through several biblical examples of generational legacy, and the common thread wasn't wealth. It was faithfulness.

Take Timothy. We know him as Paul's protégé — a young minister in the New Testament. But Paul himself pointed out that Timothy's faith didn't start with him. It started with Timothy's grandmother Eunice and his mother, who shaped his faith in the absence of his father. The legacy came through grandma and mum before Paul ever got involved.

2 Timothy 1:5 (ESV) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.

Then there's Ruth and Naomi. A mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, both navigating loss. Naomi's trust in God and Ruth's loyalty weave a story that traces all the way into the lineage of David and, eventually, Jesus. That's legacy you can track, and it's generational.

Proverbs 13:22 says, "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children." In the Hebrew, that word for inheritance is far bigger than money. It's the whole family story. The whole identity. The values, the faith, the way you lived.

How This Works in Real Life

Dave got practical about what intentional legacy-building actually looks like.

Tell your stories. Dave's grandchildren sleep over on Wednesdays, and they ask Julie to tell them stories. Not fiction. Testimonies. "Tell us about when God healed you on the mountains. Tell us about when God provided." These are just children, and they're happy to hear the same stories again and again. It stirs faith in them. Dave's point was simple but powerful. Jewish communities have long understood the power of passing down their story. Christians, he said, are often rubbish at it.

Model it, don't just talk about it. People aren't looking for perfection. They're looking for consistency — that you actually live out what you talk about. And modelling is powerful because people see you on your best day and your worst day. That's where the real value is.

Don't wait. Dave was emphatic about this. Legacy isn't something that starts when you retire or when your kids leave home. It starts now. "There is a legacy for you to live in," he said, "and that legacy needs to start now."

Be honest about the warnings too. Dave pointed to Eli in 1 Samuel 3 — a priest whose sons were scoundrels. They had a legacy coming their way, but because they failed to follow God's calling, they received judgement instead. The responsibility to lead and guide our children never stops, regardless of how old they are.

Conversation Street

Can you leave a legacy if you don't have kids?

Ellis asked this directly. John's answered that legacy can be a legacy of prayer, of presence, of participation, and provision. You don't need children to make deposits in other people's lives. The hundreds of people who've lived in John and Sally's home over 50 years of marriage are proof of that. It's giving, not genetics.

What about generational trauma — isn't that a legacy too?

Dionne raised something important. We tend to talk about legacy in positive terms, but things like generational trauma are also a type of legacy — something left behind by parents or people who have influenced us. Dave took this one. "Broken people break people," he said. And sometimes what our kids tell us about their experience growing up is genuinely different from what we intended. The answer isn't denial. It's repentance, open conversation, and a willingness to hear difficult things.

John shared something deeply personal here. One of his sons is in a gay relationship and had experienced those feelings from the age of 14. He'd pushed John away, expecting rejection because of John's Christian faith. He got the exact opposite. "I don't profess to understand it all," John said, "but I love him deeply." A legacy of love.

What should a mentor relationship actually look like?

Dionne also shared a struggle with Christian mentors — feeling that expectations were mismatched and needs went unmet. Dave reframed it. He doesn't use the word mentor. He prefers accountable relationships. John added that a good mentor is honest, human, and faithful — not perfect. "Sometimes there's a difference between needs and wants," John said gently. "And we don't always get our wants answered."

Matt's advice was not to expect mentors to be perfect. They won't call when you think they should. They've got their own stuff going on. And John reminded everyone that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate model — the one who comes alongside. "We don't pull along, we don't drag along, we don't push. We come alongside."

When Mortality Focuses the Mind

Both Dave and John have had serious health scares. John had a cardiac arrest three years ago and was resuscitated by his son Josh using CPR and a defibrillator. Dave had a widow-maker — seven episodes in a day and a half — and lay on the operating table genuinely thinking he might not open his eyes again.

What they both described wasn't fear. It was gratitude.

"Thank you, God," Dave prayed on that table. "Thank you for Julie, for the kids. And just for allowing me to be part of what you have done."

And then Dave said "People may die young, but they never die early. God's time is perfect."

You don't need a health scare to start thinking about what you're leaving behind. But it helps to know that the people who have been through one say the same thing. The legacy that matters isn't financial. It's relational. It's spiritual. It's the stories, the consistency, the love.

Something to Try This Week

Tell one story this week. Not to teach a lesson — just to share something God has done. Over dinner, on a walk, in a text message. Start small.
Ask someone older what they've learned. John mentioned StoryWorth — a service that helps you write your life story through guided questions. Even without the service, the questions are worth asking.
Think about who you're "coming alongside." Not mentoring from above — but walking with. Is there someone in your life who could use a faithful friend?
Check your consistency. Not your perfection. Are you living out what you talk about? People notice the gap, but they also notice when there isn't one.
If you're carrying a hurt, let the Holy Spirit in. Dave was direct about this. A scar is proof that healing happened. But some of us are carrying wounds that haven't become scars yet.

The Letter You Don't Know You're Writing

Matt closed with a thought about Paul, writing from prison in Rome. His calling was to preach the gospel, but he was behind a prison wall. So he wrote a letter. Two thousand years later, we're still reading it. Paul probably had no idea.

Maybe that's how legacy works. You do what you can, from where you are, with what you've got. You model it. You tell the stories. You love the people in front of you. And you trust that God sees a much bigger picture than you do.

You don't need money to leave a legacy. You just need to start building one.

# CROWD Church — Legacy (Stewardship Series Part 5)
## 22 March 2026
Speakers: Matt Edmundson (Host), Dave Connolly, John Birch, Dan Orange
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## Welcome and Introductions
Matt: Well, good evening and welcome to Crowd Church. My name is Matt Edmundson. It is great to be with you on this Sunday night. I hope you've got your cup of tea or coffee or whatever it is that floats your boat, because tonight we have got two amazing gentlemen either side of me and I'm very excited.
To my left we have the Father of Crowd Church, Dave Connolly.
Dave: I'm the one with the beard.
Matt: Well, Dave, it's good to have you. As always, always love having Dave here. And on my right we have John Birch. Good evening everyone.
John, stop hitting the table.
John: Sorry, first time folks.
Matt: And stop hitting the microphone
John: I'm a novice!
Matt: So there you go, ladies and gentlemen, we've got Dave and John tonight, which I'm very excited about. We're talking about legacy, and the reason I'm excited is because you are talking about legacy with two guys who are like fathers in the faith. So I'm really excited about this.
But before we jump into it — good evening Rachel, hey Raz, how you doing? Sharon is in the comments. Let us know where you're watching from. Julie's in the comments.
Dave: Oh dear.
Matt: Julie is Dave's wife. Lady Burke B is in the comments. Good evening, Sonya. Hope you're doing well. Mrs C, hope you're doing very well — we'll let your husband go soon and he'll be home at some point this evening.
## How Crowd Church Works
Matt: If this is your first time here at Crowd Church, let me just explain how it works. Just say hi in the comments — it'd be great to hear from you. And of course, if you've got any questions or thoughts, post them in the comments. We will do our level best to get to them, especially during Dave's talk. If anything comes up, write it in the comments, because after the talk we have Conversation Street, which is where we go through your questions and comments. It's one of our favourite bits, isn't it, Conversation Street?
Everybody say hi to John, by the way — it's John's first time.
John: Hello.
Matt: As we could tell by your microphone technique and tapping. I'm just kidding. Genuinely, two great men sat beside me, so we're gonna have some fun.
Sonia says hello John.
John: Hi Sonia.
Matt: Talking to the microphone, John.
John: Sorry. There we are. That's what this thing is here.
## Meet John — Backstory
Matt: Now, I should probably say, because it is John's first time — I've known you John, I guess 25, 30 years now.
John: I've been here 31 years now.
Matt: So I've definitely known you 31 years then. And so you came up as a GP?
John: Yep.
Matt: And you joined Frontline Church, which at the time was pastored by Dave and Nick. And you were friends with Nick — in fact you were Nick's best man.
John: Nick and I were at med school together in Bristol. He basically led me to the Lord, which was cool in a kind of roundabout way. Then we were doctors together, and they moved to Bristol to meet up with Dave and start church. We followed three years later.
Matt: And the rest is history, as they say. So there's a lot of history between us, which is great. You're in safe hands is what I'm saying. John was a GP, Dave was a nurse. I was a would-be first aider at some point. I think that's about as far as I'm gonna go with that one.
John: Anyway, I was a GP, but managed to have a heart attack and cardiac arrest three years ago.
Matt: And you're still here. Tell the story.
John: God's not finished with me yet.
Matt: Yes! There's a limit, isn't there? God's like, "No, you're not coming in just yet, dude."
John: No, no, no. You're not quite right yet.
Matt: Right, without further ado, let's get into this. Do you want to introduce the talk, or do you want me to?
Dave: I'll do it.
Matt: Let's go to Dave.
## Legacy Talk — Dave's Teaching
Dave: Good evening folks. This evening is the fifth and final talk on the subject of money.
A few weeks ago I was saying that it's not really just about money — it's about stewardship, and stewardship of everything that we have. It's about the attitude that we have towards what God places in our hands. Not to hold tightly, but to hold loosely, because we are only stewards. It's not ours.
Well, this evening we're gonna talk about legacy. Just before we started, I was saying to the guys, when we think about legacy, we think it's something we can't get until the person leaving it to us is dead. And the wonderful news is, in the Bible, that is not the case. You could receive your legacy from your father whilst he was still alive. Like with the prodigal son — there was no need for his father to die for him to get his inheritance. He could actually have what's called a living inheritance.
And I think that is really good. Being a living legacy, creating a living legacy, is something you have to be intentional about. And that's what I want to talk about. What is it to be intentional? What are the riches? What is the wealth that we are leaving? Because it may not be pounds, it may not be premium bonds, it may not be property. But we have much that we can leave, especially as Christians, that we want to pass on to our children, our grandchildren, and to anybody whose life we are touching. We want to leave with them something that will last forever.
I want to talk about creating a lasting impact that will extend beyond my last day, and it will be carried by my children and my children's children. In the 21st century we don't talk like that, but the Bible is full of talking about your children and your children's children, and even for a thousand generations. I don't even know what that would look like. I don't even know what the maths is on that, but it's a lot.
We're talking about intentionally, consistently modelling. We're not talking about just jibber-jabbering about this stuff — we have to model it. We are quite cheap in many ways, but we model what we understand scripture calls us to do. And modelling is wonderful, because if you are modelling a certain lifestyle, people come alongside you. They see what it's like on your best day and on your worst day. So modelling this is vital.
All that we're talking about is done within the context of the Bible and what scripture teaches us. If we follow what scripture teaches us, we can have a confidence in how we work that out, because we don't have to work it out just with our own capabilities. The most wonderful thing is that God places us within a body. He puts people around us, and it can be quite thrilling when you're sharing your life with other people.
Matt just said he's known John for 25 years, but there's a whole plethora of stories — things that Matt will have learned because he's seen John and Sally model it. We just see it modelled and we're attracted to it, and we see it repeated over and over again. That's where the value comes.
## Biblical Models of Legacy
Dave: We can see in scripture — Abraham, the father of the faithful. We could talk about the effect on the Levites. We'll talk a little bit about Timothy. We know Timothy as a minister in the New Testament, and we talk about how he travelled with Paul the Apostle, and Paul had huge input into his life.
But Paul says — and I love this bit, John, I'm sure you're familiar with it — Paul talks to Timothy and says, "Your grandmother Eunice, what an impact she had." Absent father, but grandma is investing in her grandson. It talks about how Eunice and then Timothy's mum — they're both shaping him. This is how we get legacy. It wasn't all about what Paul invested, but about what grandma and mum invested.
I just want to hit some of these characters and encourage you to look at Abraham in Genesis 15 and 20 — operating in obedience. His obedience led to great blessing, and his blessing went on to affect lots of generations. There's the whole thing about the Levites — the family of priests, legacy upon legacy. Ruth and Naomi — mother-in-law legacy again.
I love the Ruth and Naomi story. When you read about Naomi and her trust in God and how she secured her place in it — read it, it's an amazing story. As you track that story, you track the legacy and you see it weaves into the lineage of David. And because it ties into David's genealogy, it ties into Jesus. This is what legacy is — clear legacy. You can track it, and it is generational.
## Practical Legacy Habits
Dave: There are certain things that we have to put in, and I just want to give you the headlines. Like intentional teaching — be intentional in what we teach our children and our grandchildren. And I just want to pull in our extended families. That was a word we used before, wasn't it?
We're privileged to be somewhere where we're really into extended families. And so this intentional teaching — we're almost looking for the teaching moments. We're modelling faith, and we can all tell testimonies and stories of how we've had the privilege to see faith and hear faith spoken, and wanting to align ourselves to that. That changes how you do life. Be around people who model faith. It's wonderful. It'll stir something really deep in you.
Passing down testimonies — read about it in Psalm 78. I'm doing my best to get this bit right, but all our grandchildren sleep over at our house on a Wednesday. And they go through these seasons where they'll all be with Julie and they'll say, "Tell us stories." Testimonies — not science fiction. It's all about miracles, or about how God intervened and did this, how God healed me when I fell on the mountains, how God supplied finances, how God did this.
And these are just children, and they're happy to hear it and hear it again. It stimulates faith. I want my grandchildren to grow up in an atmosphere of hearing the testimony of God and of hearing about God's goodness, because there's enough rubbish and bad stuff happening in the world. So they can know that God is faithful.
We want to sow into them as they hear these stories. We want them as they grow to know they can pray, and how they can steward what little God has given them.
## Warnings and Responsibility
Dave: But there is a consequence when we don't. In the Bible, there's a guy called Eli in 1 Samuel chapter 3, and he's got these sons. Eli's a priest, and his sons were scoundrels. They had a legacy that was coming their way, but because they failed to follow what God had called them to do, they didn't receive their legacy. They received judgement, and so did Eli.
So let's not be slow to lead and guide our children, regardless of how old they are — they're always our children.
Matt: Yeah.
Dave: How we respond to them is different, obviously. I have a 44-year-old son and he's a man — I don't talk to him as if he's eight. Sometimes I do and I shouldn't. But our kids will always be our kids, and we need to want the best for them. Even if it means correcting them, we correct them and leave them to do what they feel they should do with that word.
You can look at the whole generational thing with the children of Israel. God was so gracious and so kind. He promised, miracle after miracle. And it wasn't long before they did their own thing. God would warn them. But God is a just God. So after all those warnings, out of love, exile comes — a form of judgement — and that affects generations. Quite often when the children of Israel went into exile, it was for 70 years, and many of those people would not have come out of it.
So let me just give you some scriptures. Proverbs 13:22 — "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children." That's grace, isn't it? Now you're probably thinking, what about me? It's okay, because it includes you.
Psalm 112, verses 1 and 2 — "His descendants will be mighty on earth. The generations of the upright will be blessed."
Joel 1:3 — "Tell it to your children, and let your children tell their children, and their children to the next generation."
It requires participation. It requires that we invest in our kids and our kids' kids and those extended family members. Because the stark reality is, if we don't, there is no shortage of people out there. There's no shortage of voices. They sound reasonable. They may even sound godly. And yet when you look at what they're saying — there's no excuse for us not to speak into the lives of our children and our children's children, and to those in our extended family. It's called responsibility, my friend.
We need to intentionally disciple people. We've been part of church, we've had great youth programmes. But I find myself all the time saying to parents — it's our responsibility to disciple our children. Thank God for children's workers and youth workers. They can have a huge impact on our kids and we really appreciate them. But it is our job to disciple our children.
There needs to be consistency in how we live our lives. For all those who are looking on — consistency over perfection. People, when they look at us, they're not looking for perfection. They're looking for consistency, that we live out what we talk about.
Modelling our values. Not just talking about this. When Hannah was here the other week, we talked about how God provides. If God provides, we need to know what it's like to be on the end of receiving. But we also need to be on the end of saying, "I'm gonna meet that need." You don't have to have a lot to meet somebody else's need. If God's prompting you — and she gave a wonderful testimony — you need to go back and watch that online.
We need to steward all that we've got. We need to share. Live life with open hands. Steward what God has given us to steward. We need to realise that God is always faithful.
As I start to land this bit — I am just throwing stuff out this evening to try and draw these sessions to a close — we are passing down a story. If you've got any Jewish friends, the Jewish people I have met over the years will say, "Christians, you're rubbish at telling your story." Because you don't sit down and tell your story. You don't talk about your history. And I love hearing testimonies. We need to develop that culture.
We're not talking about science fiction. We're not talking about fairytale. We're talking about what God has done in us and through us, and what we've heard that God has done in somebody's life. When we do that, we bring Him glory and we are proclaiming God is able to do it again.
## Healing and Lasting Impact
Dave: And that will affect our worship. Now when I'm talking about worship, I am not talking about singing songs. I'm talking about how we live. Worship is a posture of centring in on God and pushing everything else back.
When we look at our legacy, when we look at how we live, we'll find that we will start noticing the Holy Spirit just putting His finger on things in our lives. And I just feel to say — I'm talking about, dear friends, we carry a pain. We carry a hurt, and some of us have been carrying it far too long. It's not that we're in denial of it. We recognise it and don't allow the Holy Spirit to come and heal it.
And listen, you won't be scar-free. A scar is proof that there was a wound there, and that reminds you of your testimony. Allow the Holy Spirit to bring healing.
Think about how we live and realise that what God is doing in us and through us, and what wonderful things God invites us into — they will live on when we go to be with Him. I was talking with a man yesterday and he's probably going to die in the next couple of days. We had an hour and a half and we laughed for an hour. Just laughed. And we laughed and we cried.
As we were leaving, we just talked about how thankful he was to be able to be part of what God is doing in the place he is, with the people God has placed him among. And he said this wonderful thing — he said, "This last year has been the best year of my life."
I left there and I was upset, because I said, "I'll give you a ring and come for coffee next week." And he goes, "It's okay."
What he has done and what he has passed on will live on beyond his days here. We will just remember him. We remember God's faithfulness through him and in him.
Let me just close with this. I started with the idea that we may not have any grand financial inheritance to leave anybody, but we can leave a treasure. The memories that people have of us should help shape their lives to trust God.
We have the privilege of walking through things in church with each other. We have all the wonderful times of weddings and births and deaths — and families experiencing the deaths of young babies. We have had the privilege, and it is a privilege. It is really sad, but to be able to be part of their journey.
We just want to leave behind something that points all the time. We're not asking people to look to us — because we don't have anything besides what God is doing in us. When we leave, when we die, and even whilst we live, our words and our actions are just pointing to Him. The Holy Spirit is waiting to connect with each of us, my friends.
There is a legacy for you to live in, and that legacy needs to start now. You start building your legacy to pass on now. God bless you.
Matt: Brilliant. Wonderful. Thanks, Chief.
## Conversation Street — Q&A
Matt: Well, we're going to get into it. I'm going to start off with the very last comment we've just had from Alice — "As a young person (22), it's interesting to see, and no offence, older people talking about legacy."
Which I thought was an interesting comment. I don't know, Alice, if I'm one of the older people — I'm just kind of in the middle, I guess. But no, I love talking with you guys about this, because the thing I love, Dave, about what you drew out was this idea that legacy is more than money. Right? And what you leave behind is almost as important as the rest of it. Hence the reason we call it legacy.
I like this idea of thinking about legacy as being more than money. Although obviously we'll come back to why it's part of it. What do you think, John?
John: When you mentioned the word legacy, the word "deposit" popped into my mind. We are depositing something. For me — an example — I've been married for 50 years to an amazing woman who's put up with me all that time. And probably from the first couple of years, we started to have people live with us. It's been hundreds of people that have come through — the feeling being to provide a harbour, a home, friendship, love, fun.
I've got four sons, six grandchildren now. And interestingly, my youngest son caught our vision through all that time of having people live with us. When they got married 10 years ago to Alice, who came into our home as an au pair who was struggling with a variety of things — we just loved her, accepted her, she became a Christian, she married my son. And they've caught that vision for extended family and caring for people and reaching out to people.
So somehow there has been that deposit, that seed of care and hospitality and caring. That for me is an example of leaving something by example, in their lives.
Matt: That's really interesting. Alice actually put in the comments — "I can relate to it, being on the receiving end of it from my grandparents who are the best I could have ever asked for, whilst also being convicted that I too can build and leave a legacy."
That's really great. Catherine said, "Is God's legacy for us always something positive, or could it be something we don't want?"
## Legacy in Real Families
Dave: We have to have some context for that. God talked about the children of Israel. He had a plan and a purpose for them. When He leads them out of Egypt, they go on a journey that should have taken 11 days but took 40 years. That wasn't down to God — that was down to their disobedience. Even though God did miracle after miracle, it wasn't long before they were looking for something else. And those things they were looking for were not good for them. So God would break in on them and challenge them. It's almost as if it was until they came to an end of themselves.
So I think God is good. But there's a wonderful word about God being just — when God says something, He expects us to walk in it. But He is also merciful and gracious and kind. So if God says "do this" and we don't, that's called sin. That sin needs to be covered, and God covers it through sending His son Jesus. So Catherine, have a look at that word "just" — what it is for God to be a just God.
Matt: Dion's put, "It's funny that we talk about legacy in such positive terms, but things like generational trauma is also a type of legacy — something left behind by parents or people who have influenced us." Any thoughts on that, John?
John: Yeah, that's an interesting one. My eldest son wrote us a text once, having had some counselling. A number of young people in their thirties having counselling is extraordinary. He wrote to us a lot of stuff, and Sally and I sat there and thought, "What is this about?" The history was totally different to what we thought.
Clearly we do our best as parents. We are learning on the job. And sometimes we get it wrong. But the important thing is to be able to have these conversations. At times we sit around the dinner table and there's an open conversation. Sometimes it's really hard to hear what our kids are saying. But that is something as well — that's an unhelpful deposit, which is what you're alluding to. We need to be open to discuss these things, pray into these things, forgive one another, and move on.
Dave: God bless you for bringing that up, because it does paint a fuller picture. You're absolutely right that people are left with a legacy. I call it more of a curse, to be honest, because usually fallen people, broken people — and this is not an excuse — do things that bring great damage to us. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. It's sad to think a parent would intentionally want to say something or do something that would damage their children. But broken people break people.
As John's saying, when our kids have said X to us, you think, "That's really not what I meant. That wasn't what I was aiming for." And then we have to be in a place where we apologise — and I would use the word repentance — and address it. That's a really important point.
John: Another aspect of that. One of my sons — I had an interesting relationship with him for a while. He's a very creative guy. But it became evident that he was in a gay relationship and had experienced these feelings from the age of 14. He'd kind of been through church a bit but couldn't hack it, and was in a lonely place at times, which broke my heart really.
One Father's Day, he rang me. Having found out about his sexuality in a roundabout way, I bit the bullet and spoke to him about it. He was pushing me away emotionally because he thought that I would reject him because of my Christian faith. But he got exactly the opposite.
I don't profess to understand it all, but I love him deeply. And we love deeply him and his partner. That's what it's about. I'm not judging. There's no criticism. Jesus is the one who brings conviction if that's what's needed. He breaks into lives and He loves people. We just love, and that has brought us so close together. So — a legacy of acceptance. Of love.
Matt: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, John.
Dave: And anybody who knows you, John, would not be surprised by your response. You get to know people and how they value and how they function. Nobody else would be shocked. And that's a value — it's nothing that just comes out. A value is there at the very core.
John: Well, something I wrote down here — we are loved by a God of just incredible love. The creator of love and of care and passion for people. As far as I'm concerned, people are so much more important than things. Friendship, relationships — more valuable, more precious than anything material.
## Mortality and Intentional Living
Matt: I guess my question to you both is this. John, you've done the lodger thing, as you talked about. Sharon and I have done that. We feel like we're coming to the end of that season. You've done it. We've all done that, right? Very intentional about incorporating people into our community — a very Christian thing to do.
But I'm curious, John, because you did have a heart attack. You did need to be resuscitated, which I assume brings your thoughts about mortality rushing to the front of your head maybe sooner than you'd anticipated. My eldest Josh is about to get married. You guys are in a different life stage. You've had this experience — God bless you, we were all praying — but what are you intentionally doing now as a result, when it comes to legacy? Or do you still not really think about it as much?
John: Well, it's interesting. Speaking of Josh — my son Josh, not yours — they were visiting and about to go back that morning. Cut a long story short, I didn't wake up. I was gurgling and on my way, and Sally called Josh, who's a paediatric physiotherapist. He jumped on me — CPR. We happened to carry a defibrillator because my dad had problems. So they gave me a whack with that.
I know nothing about all of this. I woke up in the reanimation ward — it's a great name, the French for what is basically special care.
Matt: I like "reanimation" better than "special care."
John: I was very confused. I think I rang Al Marshall three times to tell him I'd had a heart attack. "Oh yeah, John. We know, we know." But there's that special relationship there with Josh — to have that experience together. I did pay for half of a new iPhone as a thank you, by the way.
## Sons and Legacy
John: All my relationships with my four sons are very different. We value them for who they are, and it's got to be at their own pace as well. I think that's important. I don't preach to them. I love them. Hopefully I set some example. They actually mentor me as well — they tell me to get off the roof when I'm changing tiles. "Get down from that ladder, Dad." They're kind of bubble-wrapping me a bit.
Matt: I'm sure you didn't listen to them one little bit.
John: Not really. I do occasionally.
## Mentoring and Accountability
Matt: But what about you, Dave? I was reading in the notes for this, and I came across something I'd never come across — the Levite retirement plan, where the Levites would retire from manual labour at 50 and then become in effect the mentors for the younger generation.
Now you guys, I think, have always — I don't know whether it's been intentional or whether it's just been something you've done — but it feels like you've always mentored the generation coming up behind you. How important is that still going forward? We should definitely mentor the 20-year-olds because they need a lot of help, and the 30-year-olds want a little bit of mentoring in between trying to make life work. But who mentors you? Are you being intentional about the whole mentoring thing going forward?
Dave: Yes.
Matt: Expand.
Dave: I think everybody — I don't use the word mentor. For me, it's all about accountable relationships. There are people in my life who you could call best friends — or as my kids say, I haven't got any best friends. But there are people who are my go-to people, and they're usually over specific things.
If I can just go back a little bit — when we were talking about people living with us, you're calling them lodgers. But I think we actually treat them as extended family, don't we? And there is a difference, because one is just about financial reward. The stories we could tell are quite phenomenal. But again, it's privilege.
## Health Scare Wake-Up
Dave: For me, I am really intentional. I had a wake-up call a couple of years ago — I had a heart condition. It's not compulsory — I don't recommend one — but I had something called a widow maker, which for your heart is not a good place to be. You might survive one or two.
Well, I had seven in just over a day and a half. They were stenting and it wasn't working at all. The doctor said, "If I try and put another one of these in the way your heart is, you could die." And I remember — I didn't say "thank you, God" — that wasn't what I was thinking. But Al Marshall was somewhere around, and I just remember lying back while they were getting ready.
I'm like, "There's not an option. Do what you need to do." And I just remember intentionally praying. And I just remember saying, "Thank you, God. Thank you for Julie, for the kids. And just for allowing me to be part of what you have done." To be able to go to different places. To be with people. To see you do amazing things in people's lives. Just to be there. Just to see you be you and for you to do that which only you can do.
Lying on that table, I just had this moment. My eyes were shut and I really thought when I opened them again, I could be right before the One I love.
And something happens, doesn't it? It's not about getting to a certain age. It's nothing about age. We all know people — children and families — so life is quite fragile. But you know what? People may die young, but they never die early.
God's time is perfect. The church I'm at, the pastor's wife had a 40-year-old healthy young mum of two who just didn't wake up one day. Nobody knows why. But in that moment, we were absolutely sure that this wonderful, godly woman did not die early. But she did die young.
So we do need people. Let's be real — we're talking about relationships. Relationships that we sow into, that we give into, that we receive from. And we do it with open arms. Because we do have some crazy folks.
I was just telling somebody this morning that the day after I gave my life to Jesus, I remember being in somebody's house — lovely, godly people. And I remember going to the toilet in their house. I looked in the mirror and I saw me. And I smelt me. And I just thought, "What are these lovely people wanting this street boy in their home? Who smells."
And as I was leaving that evening, the lady said to me, "We just love you being with us." And this lady — she's one of those people who doesn't have a soft side, she just says it as it is. And that just — I can't tell you what that really did in me. And that's where I want to be.
## Everyday Acts of Legacy
John: It's interesting coming back to this word legacy again, because to me it sounds like something which is permanent and lasting. But it can be sown in a very quick moment. Thinking of a couple of guys — Al Marshall, for instance. I walked through some stuff with him very early on before his marriage.
Another guy came up to me in church about a month ago — he'd lived with us. Interesting time with him, got some great stories which he won't want me to tell. And he came up and just said, "Thank you. Thank you for that time when you took me in."
You just sow something. And I remember, sometimes I get called — I'm fairly, unlike Dave, pretty practical and have done all sorts of stuff.
Matt: I don't know what you're trying to say, John.
John: Speaking truth. Guilty, guilty.
He called me about 11 o'clock at night for some disaster going on in his shower. So I went round and together we fixed it. And there are other times when people have had a need, and it might be really inconvenient sometimes. But to respond — it just plants something in that person. That they matter. They're valuable. You care. You'll go out of your way.
And that's a precious thing to be able to do. We can all do that.
I mean, I started off being, well, selfish — an only child. We only children must stand together. The typical thing about being an only child is not true. Some of us are reasonably balanced now anyway.
Matt: Thank God. I've not seen any of them.
John: But the joy of giving and getting alongside and being there for somebody else is fantastic, rather than having your own way. Privilege.
## Legacy Without Kids
Matt: Let me go back to the comments. Alice said, "For those who never have kids, how can they still leave a legacy to others around them? Is it different, or is it harder?"
Dave: Different. Alice, I think it's just different.
John: It's giving. Legacy can be a legacy of prayer, of presence, of participation, and provision. Nick Harding would be very proud — four Ps. We can be there for each other.
Dave: And your legacy is made of things that are valuable. The things that cost us — that's the value. That's what we want to give people. We want to give them valuable things. Other people may think they're useless.
Matt: It's one of those, isn't it? You mentioned the Bible verse — "a good man leaves an inheritance for his children's children." I've read that for years and thought, "Oh, I've gotta make sure I leave them some cash." But in the Hebrew, it's much more than just wealth. It's the whole family story. It's the whole identity. And seeing it beyond that is important.
## Finding Healthy Mentors
Matt: Dion said in the comments, "I have really struggled with Christian mentors. I think what they can offer and my expectations are mismatched, and I'm always left disappointed, not having my needs met." Thoughts on that?
Dave: It's all about relationship. People who I mentor, who I walk with — I want to know them. I want to get to know a little bit about them. And I have said, "Look, I can walk this with you and talk about this with you, but I'm not necessarily the best person to walk through this specific thing with you."
But I do understand what you're saying. Look for people where you see something that is so godly that you can connect with. Try and find somebody who has got time, or who will make time, because it will cost them. And it should cost them.
Matt: What should a mentor relationship look like, John?
John: It's example. Being an example. Being honest. Being feet of clay as well. We're not perfect. We can get things wrong. We can say the wrong things. We're human. But to get alongside and be faithful. Hang in there and be honest.
You mentioned your needs not being met. I don't mean this in an offensive way, but sometimes there's a difference between needs and wants, and we don't always get our wants answered. There's often a good reason for that, because our wants could lead us in the wrong direction.
But find someone who believes in you, who empowers you, who wants the best for you. And you sense that. But it's going to require something from you too — to be honest, to be able to hear some difficult things. And in those things being highlighted, there can be release. There can be healing. There can be wholeness. There can be moving on.
You may have to forgive. You may have to hear the positive words, not the rubbish and negative words that get so fed into our minds. We need ears to hear the right things, and be able to filter. Pray for wisdom. I often pray very little for material things. I pray for wisdom — to know how to respond, to live. I mess up. Boy do I mess up at times. But it's a journey.
Matt: That's good. The other thing I'd say about mentor relationships from my experience — don't expect them to be perfect. They're not going to be. You have to make allowances for that. They're not going to call you when you think they should. They're not going to ask you how you are when you think they should, because they've got their own stuff going on as well.
I learned more about my parents when I became a parent. You just do, don't you? And I think you learn more about mentor relationships when you mentor somebody else.
John: Can I just say — Dave said he doesn't use the word mentor. Just remember the Holy Spirit — the one who comes alongside. And I think that's what we need to do. We need to come alongside. We don't pull along, we don't drag along, we don't push. We come alongside and we are willing to walk on that journey.
Dave: The whole Jesus-disciple model is one of discipleship. They just walked with Jesus. They listened. They spoke how He spoke. They said what He said. They lived how He did it. And I think we live in a day where lots of people disciple people to themselves — so they're almost saying, "Be like me," rather than, "Be like Jesus." And that's when the issues come.
I just encourage you to connect with people who just love Jesus. Get close enough to see if it's real — not perfect. I'm going for consistency, not perfection. I'm me, and I just want to be real in my consistency. People will value the things I'm consistent in, and they may pray for the things I'm not so good at. But I'd want them to pray "make me more like Jesus" rather than their expectation.
## A Generational God
Matt: One of the things that comes out of this for me as you were talking — God is a generational God. He identifies Himself in the Old Testament as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. "A good man leaves an inheritance for his children's children." God's never just about you. He's about the generations that come after you, and those that you impact.
I was reading the other day — Paul's writing from prison in Rome, and he says, "I want you to know that everything that has happened to me has advanced the gospel." He understood that God had called him to preach the gospel, but he's in jail. I'd be like, "God, there's a wall between me and my calling right now."
What can he do? He writes a letter. We still read that letter 2,000 years later. I wonder — when he wrote it, did he realise the legacy of that? Just what he could achieve in prison, in many ways. And that seems to be God — you don't always remember the name, but you remember there's something that's passed down through the generations. God is very much a generational God.
Dave: Just with that — Paul wasn't focusing on where he was, or even who he was with. He was focusing on what God had called him to do. Paul's one of those people I want to spend loads of time talking to when I get to heaven.
Matt: Yeah, me too.
Dave: Because he's got a bit of an attitude, you know? Like myself.
Matt: I wasn't going to go that far. I'm more of a Peter man.
Dave: Peter, then Paul. That's obviously after many, many thousands of years with Jesus, of course, before you start typing.
But Paul says, "I've been beaten X number of times. I have been thrown in prison. I have been shipwrecked. I have been nearly drowned." There are times in scripture where he's weary. He's just depressed at one stage. And it's funny — he's depressed because he's been with all these Gentiles and they're getting saved, but the Hebrews are just ignoring him. So he goes off to the side and does a bit of work.
And God continues and comes alongside and says to him, "Listen, you don't have to fear for your life. As long as you keep proclaiming me." Our legacy is in who we are and in what God is doing through us.
And what about that jailer? We're talking about generation — the gospel was for you and your household. What about the scriptures that are talking to nations, calling nations? We look around the world and we see God calling nations — Iran, China, Nigeria. We're talking huge numbers. So it's not just generation — that's beyond my little brain.
John: Here's an interesting thought I just had about a reverse legacy. Look at the story of Joseph. How much was put into Joseph? What he went through. Wrong attitude. God had to do some character work on him. False accusation. Prison. But he still had that gift that God had given him. And he is the salvation of his family.
Matt: No, that's really good. Alice has put in the comments, "I think Paul and me sometimes have the occasional Ecclesiastes day."
John: We might have to make that a thing.
Matt: What? Lamentations Wednesday?
## Practical Legacy — Stories Worth
John: Just a practical thing if I could throw in here about legacy. My son Josh bought me something — have you heard of StoryWorth? It's an American thing where they ask you a bunch of questions, you answer them, they produce a book, and it's your life story. He bought me that. So I did it for about a year and wrote down answers to their questions — like, "What advice would you give to the next generation?"
I think that's a really good idea. I know quite a few people have done a life history for their grandchildren.
Matt: Oh, Sharon's grandma did one.
Dan: My dad's written a book for his grandchildren — all the stories that have happened.
Matt: Yeah. Your dad's done it and he's got plenty of stories. That's a great thing.
Dave: We were talking about testimonies before. Like Dan's dad — as an evangelist, missionary, I don't know what you'd call him, but when you listen to his stories, it just stirs faith in you. And you think, you may have never wanted to go on mission.
We used to have a guy in church called Dave Lee. I would have just wanted to be a local pastor. And I remember talking with Dave and he says, "Yeah, that's great. Brandon's going to pray to God — you know what you have, and He's going to open the door." And he's really so passionate. And it was what I saw in him. And people like Dan's dad, and a number of other people working overseas — they just stir something. They put an investment, their legacy, in you.
But I love the book idea.
Matt: It's a great idea. And Sharon's grandma's book — just stuff about growing up in the war. It's not available on Amazon, at least I don't think it is.
## Wrap Up and Next Steps
Matt: Gentlemen, we are fast running out of time. We are going to switch over to Live Lounge. Come join us on Google Meet — it's go.crowd.church/meet. Come say hi to John and Dave. It'd be good to see you in there.
Dan: Next week.
Matt: Oh, is that what that means? Sorry, you guys can't see — I just got a nudge from Dan. Next week we are going to be looking at the start of Easter. We've got Easter coming up next week and the week after. Adie is doing next week's live stream.
John, are you getting up?
John: Permission to go to the toilet, sir. Thank you.
Dave: It's a thing at a certain age.
John: I'm maybe 71. I'm going.
Dave: I'm going after.
Matt: You couldn't have waited another 30 seconds for me to close the show? This is brilliant. You've gotta love John.
So yeah, next week we're talking about Easter. The week after we're talking about Easter as well. Next two weeks we are focused on Easter. After that we are jumping into a series which I'm super excited about called "Jesus: A Revolutionary" — and we're going to look at about 31 different things that Jesus did that were very countercultural, even today, and quite revolutionary.
Do come join us in Live Lounge. I'm not going to ask John because I definitely don't want to go where he is right now. Anything from you in closing, Chief?
I'll tell you what — one of my favourite live streams we've done for Crowd. This has just been mental, just could not keep up. You just knew it was going to be a little bit like this, and that's the fun of it.
So that's it from me. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a phenomenal week wherever you are in the world. Hopefully we'll see you in Live Lounge, but this has been a real treat for me. God bless you. Bye for now.